Cover Systems, Lean & Realism

[rye1 21]

4 IN 1 Try SMK_anims. Think about it, we have a tonne of keys now, half of which could be used/added onto for using these anims. No big deal.

[Mr. Charles 22]

I tried SMK once and i had broken fingers afterwards.

[james2464 176]

I tried SMK once and i had broken fingers afterwards.

Simulators... deadly stuff mate you better watch those bindings!

Mean while Smooky the SMK creator is a BIS Developer...

[Tonci87 163]

SMK Anims has way to many keys and is simply to complicated to make Infantry combat really enjoyable.

[4 IN 1 0]

I tried SMK once and i had broken fingers afterwards.

Already did, like I said, never like it, it may work for fast pace PVP, but no if you play thinker mission with no respawn where there is much more to care about. And I absolutely hate being forced to use one set of key binding.

Edited April 1, 2012 by 4 IN 1

[smookie 11]

SMK Anims has way to many keys and is simply to complicated to make Infantry combat really enjoyable.

As with everything, any new feature will most likely add new keys since making stuff automatic ends up either being frustrating (see Mass Effect 3 spacebar) or infantile (bring simulator to arcade level). Complaining about more keys to master _additional_ moves in a _simulator_ is something I only partially understand. And as with all simulators (and in real life, most of all, since you dont become elite SF from day one), its all down to practice.

Adjusting controls to players comfort (or letting them do so; personally i never change default controls in any game) is another thing though.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Smookie

[Fogu 10]

Plz just give us some better ACOG and Sniper sights like in RO2.

and maybe a cover System that somehing like this is possible:rolleyes:

http://youtube/uZ2SWWDt8Wg

Check out @ 05:56 how the Soldier is shooting his weapon

[Tonci87 163]

I don´t complain about to many keys, I have way to much Arma and Flysim practice to complain about something like this, but new players will have a very confused look on their face if they can´t control their avatar as they are used to in other games. More fancy movements is always good, but please keep the WASD config with W being run forward, not walk and make the new keybindings easy to reach and intuitive (I guess that will be the main problem).

[antoineflemming 14]

Plz just give us some better ACOG and Sniper sights like in RO2.

and maybe a cover System that somehing like this is possible:rolleyes:

Check out @ 05:56 how the Soldier is shooting his weapon

Also, an excellent example of blindfire being repeatedly used...

[4 IN 1 0]

Also, an excellent example of blindfire being repeatedly used...

Did I really need to be more clear? No one here ever said it is NOT being repeatedly used.

Besides, just because you can use it doesn't mean that it is the best way to do things.

[froggyluv 2136]

Well to each their own I guess. Personally I dont find SMK at all cumbersome to use in the slighest. Side Mouse button (Turbo) with direction feels pretty instinctive to this old gamer :)

[xeno 234]

As with everything, any new feature will most likely add new keys since making stuff automatic ends up either being frustrating (see Mass Effect 3 spacebar) or infantile (bring simulator to arcade level). Complaining about more keys to master _additional_ moves in a _simulator_ is something I only partially understand. And as with all simulators (and in real life, most of all, since you dont become elite SF from day one), its all down to practice.

That's what I feared. New keys for playing animations... So basically nothing has changed in the animation system just new animations which need new keys. Right or wrong ?

The movement of the player in the april fools joke video was also quite clunky and looked the same as in A2 (maybe animations playing faster ?!?).

Also, an excellent example of blindfire being repeatedly used...

And also an excellent example of how long it takes a 249 gunner to reload the 249. Nothing you can do magically in 2 seconds while running...

Xeno

Edited April 1, 2012 by Xeno

[antoineflemming 14]

That's what I feared. New keys for playing animations... So basically nothing has changed in the animation system just new animations which need new keys. Right or wrong ?

The movement of the player in the april fools joke video was also quite clunky and looked the same as in A2 (maybe animations playing faster ?!?).

And also an excellent example of how long it takes a 249 gunner to reload the 249. Nothing you can do magically in 2 seconds while running...

Xeno

Yep, you're right. And I also hope that it's not just new fluid animations but a new animation system. Seriously, BIS needs to learn from other games when it comes to animations. I think in almost everything else BIS is unmatched, but animations are the one thing that really aren't dependent on the genre of the game. I'll just give an example from another game (yeah, I'm doing that for all you people who can't stand ppl mentioning other games). I played the Ghost Recon Online beta last night. Game sucks like crazy. But one thing that was kinda good was their cover system. The character's stance, movement, animations, were completely dependent on the type of cover. When there was a wall, the character would stand. When there was an open window, the character would automatically duck down into a slouched position under the window seal. You didn't have to press a different key to move into that stance. No offense to Smookie, but when behind a wall, transitioning to under the window seal, the character didn't continue to walk as if he were along the wall, like with the SMK animation pack. The character immediately got down.

BIS has a great simulator. I know. But at some point BIS, and certain community members, have to be willing to explore things that, yes, other games have done before. I'm not asking for a cover system like Ghost Recon. I'm not suggesting that ArmA3 be like COD. Last time I checked, most people didn't complain about ArmA3 becoming an arcade shooter when it was shown that ArmA3 would implement PhysX. Last time I checked, no one complained that ArmA3 was becoming MW when the EBR was demoed. Last time I checked, no one complained about multicam or the fn f2000 being in other standard shooters. A cover system however it is implemented wouldn't automatically make the game like some arcade shooter. Blindfire wouldn't make ArmA3 some arcade shooter. A cover system wouldn't make ArmA3 be Ghost Recon Future Soldier. But it'd be good if the ArmA3 system could recognize different cover types, like the difference between a wall and sandbags, for example. It'd be good if there were a cover system where the player could get behind cover and fire from that cover. It'd be awesome if there were some sort of destruction system so that cover could erode, but I know that's asking way too much.

I know BIS is a relatively small company. But it's ok to get outside help if you can... I want nothing more than for ArmA3 to be the best it can be. I just don't want to feel like a robot moving around. And I want to be able to better simulate what a person can really do in a firefight. It's impossible to completely mimic human movement. But a person's movement isn't restricted to a set of keys and stance changes. It'd be nice if ArmA3 could finally reflect that. Part of what would have helped is if BIS would have tried to get former special forces to do their motion-capped animations. After all, you are playing as special forces in ArmA3. Hopefully animations and stances are not only fluid, but realistic. And hopefully the animation system itself is revamped like BIS said, not just new animations to replace the old (although I'd definitely rather have new animations and same system over same animations same system).

[smookie 11]

I am just expressing my general thoughts. Its definately not where the development of the game stands so dont take my word as anything related to arma3.

[b00ce 160]

SMK Anims has way to many keys and is simply to complicated to make Infantry combat really enjoyable.

Only one key has been added as a modifier for key bindings that already exist (Turbo + crouch/run/movement/walk/prone, etc.), even at that most of it is context based. The only thing extra is getting used to additional functionality of the keys you already have. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vklOq6KFQy4

[onlyrazor 11]

Some of those actions would be nice in Arma 3. Like the climb over wall and combat slide and roll.

[antoineflemming 14]

I'd like from SMK, in order of priority:

Cover system

Combat Slide

Combat Jump over Object

Climb over Wall

Combat Roll

Edited April 1, 2012 by antoineflemming

[Steakslim 1]

short of the bug or conflict smk has with some other mods I run (spawn in the ground) i found it very handy in either pvp or coop with it's additional features. I'm already missing the sniper crouch feature and some additional prone stances.

[Panda_pl 0]

Seriously, BIS needs to learn from other games when it comes to animations.

What other games?

I have a hard time coming up with a title where first person view did not consist of floating hands model and camera smoothly and fluidly flying around the level. With bullets comming out of your forehead, since this is where camera is.

Then you get all those people complain about being shot while they THINK they are already in cover, because the 3pp animations, while looking great, are a very, very loose fit to player's movement in 1pp and are delayed by smoothing.

Arma looks clunky because you see and experience your avatar the same way he looks in the actual game.

Also cover system, where you snap to walls and obstacles, would kill any immersion for me. Tried it, it was horrible, I had a feeling my dude was acting on his own.

[antoineflemming 14]

What other games?

I have a hard time coming up with a title where first person view did not consist of floating hands model and camera smoothly and fluidly flying around the level. With bullets comming out of your forehead, since this is where camera is.

Then you get all those people complain about being shot while they THINK they are already in cover, because the 3pp animations, while looking great, are a very, very loose fit to player's movement in 1pp and are delayed by smoothing.

Arma looks clunky because you see and experience your avatar the same way he looks in the actual game.

Also cover system, where you snap to walls and obstacles, would kill any immersion for me. Tried it, it was horrible, I had a feeling my dude was acting on his own.

Any reference to animations in other standard FPSs would of course be talking about 3rd person animations, not first person. But, of course, someone who hasn't played standard FPS games before wouldn't understand that. Animations like in BF3 aren't unrealistic. When it's mocapped by real people, how can you call that unrealistic. The sliding around is not the animations. That's the movement system. Arma is clunky. It doesn't just look clunky. Check out GRFS's cover system (as in the actual motion behind cover). Seems pretty realistic to me, and it's not even back to wall. Nor is it snapping. Nor are you simply glued to the wall where you have to press a key to leave the wall (not like SMK's pack).

[Choki 10]

For me would be enough that AI find coverage more realistically and the goups work as a team to attack cities or clear building

[danny96 80]

I'd like from SMK, in order of priority:

Cover system

Combat Slide

Combat Jump over Object

Climb over Wall

Combat Roll

Plus

- Blind fire

- Combat jogg

- Shooting while running (suppressive fire)

[Choki 10]

Plus

- Blind fire

- Combat jogg

- Shooting while running (suppressive fire)

For a real suppresive fire the AI should have a cover system and kept hidden by the enemy fire

[Panda_pl 0]

Any reference to animations in other standard FPSs would of course be talking about 3rd person animations, not first person.

Which is where you miss the point. There is no distinction in Arma.

When it's mocapped by real people, how can you call that unrealistic.

1) Mocap animations can be edited later anyway, you don't know

2) Mocap actors wear spandex and carry plastic rifles. They do not perform moves with combat load.

3) Mocap animations can be sped up or slowed down.

Stop assuming people who disagree with you are ignorant.

The difference between arma and other games is visual smoothing in 3pp and there is no fake 1pp. In Arma you are seeing the raw output.

Lack of animation interrupt used to be a pain, it was partially fixed in A2, but not quite there yet.

Edit: I asked you for game examples, since you keep bringing up "other games". You can name specific animation systems that are better in specific ways but none of them could allow for the 1st person/3rd person synergy we currently have without delaying the movements in 1pp and giving you motion sickness.

The proposed superior "other game" simply does not exist.

That does not mean Arma2 cannot be improved but it does mean you are comparing apples to oranges every time you bring up those FPS games.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Panda_pl

[-Coulum- 35]

For a real suppresive fire the AI should have a cover system and kept hidden by the enemy fire

YES! and each piece of cover would have a safe and exposed stance connected to it. When they want to shoot someone the ai would take up the exposed stance, ie standing, and when rounds start passing by they would take the safe stance for a little while, ie prone. Would make fire fights last so much longer, and would make suppressive fire useful. I don't think there should be a cover system for humans but for ai I definitely think so.