Major issue with multiplayer

[norsu 180]

As we all know BIS games have always been mod friendly since launch day. As a veteran mod maker I think this has been a mixed blessing. ARMA games have moved towards better multiplayer support and hopefully ARMA 3 won't be any different in this regard. However I think every ARMA release (since OFP) has made the multiplayer harder to approach for new players.

BIS has added new game modes, improved netcode, included JIP and generally tried to make the multiplayer more accessible. So why have I found myself spending more and more time in the multiplayer lobby trying to join a game despite all these improvements? I hate to say it but I think the very loose mod support is partly to be blamed here. To establish a good multiplayer scene you'll need few basic things:

-Good servers

-Lots of players (at launch majority are new players who have never tried ARMA games)

-Good gaming modes and missions

-Stability

The problem with loose mod support is that it takes the stability away. It also means that the multiplayer community will quickly abandon the vanilla game and become very fragmented. New players who are not familiar with mods and heavily customised missions won't linger around for too long if they can't join a simple public server or have no idea how a mission plays. Needless to say this will quickly lead to drastic decrease in player count. If the vanilla game and game modes were given more time, there could be more public servers for the more casual crowd. This casual crowd could then enjoy the game as it is, become familiar with the game mechanics and in the end respect the endless multiplayer possibilities.

To succeed in multiplayer BIS needs to make lots of decent and stable missions for each game mode. Also I think a drastic reduction in multiplayer modding and mission scripting possibilities at ARMA 3 launch wouldn't be a bad thing. It might be seen as blasphemy at first but I think the vanilla game should be given a chance to prove itself. After a while BIS could release a major patch and unlock full modding and scripting functions for multiplayer.

So, drastic and heretic measures but I think necessary. What do you think?

[mr burns 132]

Partly agree with you, at least on the accessability points.

Having a "mod brake" intact at a new release though, shitty solution for a merely existing problem.

The players that are going to drop ArmA due to it´s inaccessability, few missions at release, steep learning curve, etc. are players who got lost with ArmA. Nobody knows why they bought it, but they did. They didn´t come seeking for the überSandbox experience most of us value so much, but for shiny pics & well made videos depicting their favourite military gear.

As for more & better MP missions coming with the core game, i´m all for it!

BI needs to get out of their "community will rush in" thinking that led them to ship OA with virtually no good MP missions at all. And we´ve seen that happen before, in A2, and in A1. Some of the missions coming with OA don´t even work proper in MP, first slot being used up by server?! That´s sub par also for first time mission makers.

The thought of having ingame mod downloading must´ve died by now, since we all know that no gameserver will stand 3-5 people downloading ACE Mod for instance at the same time ...

A really well made and thought through ingame mod manager might help a little (looking at Ghost Recon 1 here). Not talking about the thing we have now, it doesn´t work right, is impractical, and everyone who tries it will be pointed to a fanmade launcher because it´s just better.

Bottomline: BI simply needs to make things better they know they haven´t done so well before :D

[katipo66 94]

Agreed, I spend a lot of time in the lobby shaking my head, it's all closed door stuff

[norsu 180]

Partly agree with you, at least on the accessability points.

Having a "mod brake" intact at a new release though, shitty solution for a merely existing problem.

Yeah, it's a drastic solution but I think the problem with MP fragmentation is still notable and BIS should address it somehow.

[Tonci87 163]

Bis needs a tool like yoma or sixupdater included in the game. If you want to join a server it tells you wich mods you need and how long it will take to download them. While the user is downloading the mods he can access the documentation and Readme files through said tool. This alone would make MP much easier for new users. BIS should work together with armaholic on this.

Restricting the moding is a very bad idea!

[rye1 21]

I wouldn't agree with reducing modding. What do most of your MP issues come from? That's the question you need to ask and solve. For instance, we desync like hell if too many people try join? Solutions: Que'ing system, autocheck modlist before join, tonic's suggestion above, a warning saying they do not have the mods before they even connect. Simple things like that, that will save people from clogging up a server. 90% of the people that try get on ours are running pure vanilla... there needs to be a way to stop this before they even try connecting--or make it so they cannot connect alltogehter--and a way for them to understand it all. When I first played Arma I did the same, I didn't know WTF it was on about giving me a list of 'missing' pbo's, then trying to set up a modfolder... oh jesus, @Mod with no addons folder within that and it took me half a day to work out how to fix it through google. Having it easier for beginners is fine by me, but not restricting those who play Arma comfortably with their mods.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Rye

[james2464 177]

PR has done a good job, it hits 80 people every night on the weekend. use to have hundreds on first release

With more releases and the portability to A3 I think PR will be that stable MP/PVP environment unless BIS build there own for A3

[djfluffwug 10]

This is probably going to get closed soon due to this being better suited in the wishlist thread, but I will put in my thoughts on it.

What really needs to happen in MP missions is for a clear objective to be shown to the player.

Now, I know how to find out what that objective is as I have played ArmA 2 for many years, but new players in the ArmA series will be struggling to find out what they're actually meant to do in the multiplayer missions.

Not much is explained to them.

So, if the mission objective, and introduction could be better explained to new players, that would be a big plus.

But, back to the missions, I agree that we need some polished vanilla missions that are actually fun and quality. Needs to have fluent gameplay and be clearly explained to the players what they have to do.

[norsu 180]

I wouldn't agree with reducing modding. What do most of your MP issues come from? That's the question you need to ask and solve. For instance, we desync like hell if too many people try join? Solutions: Que'ing system, autocheck modlist before join, tonic's suggestion above, a warning saying they do not have the mods before they even connect. Simple things like that, that will save people from clogging up a server. 90% of the people that try get on ours are running pure vanilla... there needs to be a way to stop this before they even try connecting--or make it so they cannot connect alltogehter--and a way for them to understand it all. When I first played Arma I did the same, I didn't know WTF it was on about giving me a list of 'missing' pbo's, then trying to set up a modfolder... oh jesus, @Mod with no addons folder within that and it took me half a day to work out how to fix it through google. Having it easier for beginners is fine by me, but not restricting those who play Arma comfortably with their mods.

This pretty much sums up why I would reduce modding at launch. If BIS didn't need to spend resources on download managers and making MP mod support suitable for the new players, they could spend those resources for better MP missions and stock features. We use mods because the vanilla game is lacking something and frankly just because we can. But it takes months for community to come up with decent "default" mods, download systems etc. All the while the MP community slowly dies because joining a game is so frustrating.

The current trend of multiple mods and missions with different spectator mods, revive systems etc. support private servers and weekly events just fine. But the main crowd is left stranded from the beginning.

After release BIS could use their resources on making a mod friendly MP experience and get it all right with one big patch. Hell, maybe even a mod repository like Bethesda is planning for Skyrim.

[metalcraze 290]

Also I think a drastic reduction in multiplayer modding and mission scripting possibilities at ARMA 3 launch wouldn't be a bad thing. It might be seen as blasphemy at first but I think the vanilla game should be given a chance to prove itself. After a while BIS could release a major patch and unlock full modding and scripting functions for multiplayer.

Why so modest? Only cutting out stuff to return it later in a patch?

Why not release that as DLC for $10 later then?

Maybe people just like to use mods since vanilla doesn't suit them? An unacceptable thought, I know.

[norsu 180]

Why so modest? Only cutting out stuff to return it later in a patch?

Why not release that as DLC for $10 later then?

Did you even read my posts?

Maybe people just like to use mods since vanilla doesn't suit them? An unacceptable thought, I know.

I understand the need for mods, hell I've modded BIS games since 2002. But I feel that this community is often too eager to get the latest mods and concepts out and thus fragment the already niche crowd before it has a chance to become bigger. Like I said a mixed blessing.

Implemention of small server side mods could be another solution. This way community could make tiny (config) mods without having the players to download and manage them. Later when the community has grown and hungers for big mods, BIS should open the flood gates.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Norsu

[NoRailgunner 0]

You don't need to reduce or stop mod/addon building - you just have to make it visible so a caveman can understand what is required and what is allowed to use.

Make a proper MP GUI so people can see what's required and what they have to download for certain mission. Make it better visible that they are using + playing with a XX.XX BETA or XX.XX STABLE version of A3/mission/addon/mod.

Perhaps add a brief mission overview into this MP GUI so people don't Rambo around and spoil the missions for others.

As for mp missions (coop, pvp) - BIS could add some more working missions from easy to hardcore difficulty.

[Tonci87 163]

Well guys the tools are already there!

Yoma, SIxupdater, they are already there. BIS has a very creative and competent community all they need to do is to work together with said community. And I´m sure that the community would more than gladly help.

The MP Browser needs to be changed, the whole system needs to be changed to some degree.

If you want to join a server you already must have the mods/game Version it requires, otherwise you can´t join at all. This would stop people from trying to join Servers witout the mods and creating desynch.

If a Player gets rejected by a server he must get a clear message why that happened. Not some obscure "The mission can´t be played because it depends on files that have been...."

NO

It should say "The server you are trying to join requires the following mods: [...].

You can most likely download them at http://forums.bistudio.com or armaholic.com."

An even better solution is the use of some updater so you get:

"The Server you are trying to join requires the following mods [...] would you like to download them? [YES] [NO]" if YES then: "Would you like to read the available documentation/Readme/Info regarding that mod while your Download is running?"

A good way to keep the player buisy during the download so that he doesn´t get bored.

And finally: "The download has finished! The game will restart with the required mods and you will be connected to the server. Please klick Restart"

Mods could be managed/deleted through the build-in-modmanager

That way every new guy would instantly know how to handle things

[wipman 1]

Hi, one thing that i'd ever missed since the OFP was a good MP servers browser, with more and better info about the server that im trying to join; by default... with the retail game, there is no way of know if a server is running a mod and which it's, we can't even see the entire name of many missions... we can't also see in a detailed and not chaotic way the names of the players inside a server.

Since the ArmA... the only MP mission that i had fun with, was the EVO and because it had rewards and from time to time... i had the luck of play with people (all this always in public servers) that worked as a team and cooperated with each other instead choose "the rambo way"; the last coops that i'd enjoyed were the BAS coops for the OFP v1.96, since then i haven't seen a good coop on a public server. The MP part must be much better on the ArmA3 to don't loose players three days after the initial release, an example of what im saying... i'd played by three days to the OA and then uninstalled it and never installed it again and never will. Don't know yet what i gonna do when the ArmA3 be released. Let's C ya

[EDcase 87]

As has been stated before I doubt a built in mod manager could handle several people trying to download all the required mods at the same time. Mods are not unified enough and conflicts exist. That's the problem with such an open ended system.

What the ARMA3 server browser needs is more info about a particular server.

An info button that shows what mods are used, mission difficulty settings etc.

These should also be incorporated into the search filter so that particular mods and settings can be included or excluded.

More obvious colour coded list to show where mods are required.

Edited January 11, 2012 by EDcase

[mr burns 132]

If BIS didn't need to spend resources on download managers and making MP mod support suitable for the new players, they could spend those resources for better MP missions and stock features.

I doubt that the guys making missions at BI´s are also the ones responsible for netcode, GUI and other in depth features. Sure they´ll have a few jacks of all trades, but what you said cannot be true - other than BI having god awful ressource management going on.

The current trend of multiple mods and missions with different spectator mods, revive systems etc. support private servers and weekly events just fine. But the main crowd is left stranded from the beginning.

Only happens because crucial things like Revive or Spectating need to come usermade. Nobody would have to use norrins revive if there was a perfectly functioning counterpart inside BI modules. Nobody would need to re-edit hundreds of missions to get spectating working correctly again after 1.60 if there was a spectating function coming with the game..

BI must step up.

I´m sure some of us even would be fine if ArmA3 came as a bare modding engine, like ArmA1 w/o it´s pbo´s, that at least wouldn´t mislead people into thinking it was a game to play :p

[Pulverizer 1]

A valid issue Norsu, but your solution would be way too extreme IMO. I would do like TF2.

Only show 100% standard servers (be it missions or mods) on the 1st page of server browser. The major problem is that this would require a variety of official MP missions that don't suck, with PvP and everything. Perhaps allow mission wizard games too on this list.

Then of course have another separate tab that only shows all the mod and addon using servers, and all the cool kids with their crazy evolution, domination, citylife missions and such that might not be the first thing a newbie wants to see.

This would be super effective I think, and wouldn't make the second tab folks go spergers. Well, not go full spergers.

[minimalaco 30]

play arma 3 vanilla for a few months? .... no thanks. i like the addons comunity.

[sgtice 10]

PR has done a good job, it hits 80 people every night on the weekend. use to have hundreds on first release

With more releases and the portability to A3 I think PR will be that stable MP/PVP environment unless BIS build there own for A3

PR is not moving to A3 until about two years after. They plan to exhaust the current engines limits first, said info can be found on the PR forums.

www.realitymod.com

[Montanaro 0]

that makes sense, it will give them enough time to learn the ARMA engine and see what all can be done, rather than starting from scratch with A3.

I still doubt it'll be "two years". A year at most. Once A3 comes out, they will be chomping at the bit to mod it.

[MARINExCOMMANDO 1]

Pulverizer hit the nail on the head with the idea of putting the basic servers first and then getting to the more complex servers. I started Playin A2 a year ago and still find it a little duanting trying to get the correct mods for multiplayer. Can't wait for A3

[Beagle 684]

Just today I had an encounter that left me facepalming about MP in ArmA.

On WASP server the mission modder thought it to be a good idea to give EAST armour more strenght...5 player shot 6 NLAW at a T-90 but the sucker drove on killing all...this happened on two maps in two sessions...the change onyl affect OPFOR...this is when you loose the interest in ArmA MP.

The cheat was confimed by all BLUFOR players.

What's next, bulletproof An-2 with KH-29?

Whenever I join a public vanille server I should find a vanilla game with vanilla units, not everything modded to the Admins or Clans liking.

Do that on your passworded servers and or give a WARNING: CHEAT Edition.

Im back into playing campaing with my friends in privacy:

Edited January 11, 2012 by Beagle

[dekster 1]

I think multiplayer would be way more fun if hit in torso or head equaled dead.

Someone making a dash to cross the street, you hit him once, he can continue and knows your position. It's just awfull.

Same goes for many other situations where in real life the other guy would have died and you could continue in stead of him (try) killing you.

[norsu 180]

A valid issue Norsu, but your solution would be way too extreme IMO. I would do like TF2.

Only show 100% standard servers (be it missions or mods) on the 1st page of server browser. The major problem is that this would require a variety of official MP missions that don't suck, with PvP and everything. Perhaps allow mission wizard games too on this list.

Then of course have another separate tab that only shows all the mod and addon using servers, and all the cool kids with their crazy evolution, domination, citylife missions and such that might not be the first thing a newbie wants to see.

That's a fine idea. Good to see this topic is producing opinions on the matter. Whatever solution BIS comes up with I hope they understand how open their multiplayer world truly is and how that becomes problematic without management.

Maybe mission editor could tag any non-standard missions and place them away from the default category. Big mods like ACE could create their own tab to further improve mission filtering. Also addons & mods shouldn't be shown just as mod folders. Smaller addons can be placed into whatever folder you want which further complicates things. Sometimes I see servers with odd folder names or sometimes the well known mod folder simply contains more addons than I expected.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Norsu

[Tonci87 163]

A Filer Option to show only vanilla servers would be a good idea