Is the Arma Communtiy getting too obsessed with legal issuse such as EULA's ?

[W0lle 1050]

Эх.. :D Как говорÑÑ‚ на Родине - "ИДИТЕ ÐÐХУЙ!" :D Ð’ пизду ваÑ, уебаны неруÑÑкие, вы только "Мое! Мое!" кричать можете и ни за что Ð½Ð¸Ñ…ÑƒÑ Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð´Ñ€ÑƒÐ³Ð¸Ñ… не Ñделаете :D

/vote topiclock :D

+2 infraction points for insulting other members and posting in foreign language on purpose. Next time you take a vacation from the forums.

The discussion about PR stops here and now as this is not about PR in general from what I can see.

We aso the flamebaiting and spamming right now. If you are not able to discuss the matter without that, then we gonna close this thread as we did with the other IP/EULA one some months back. :)

[rhaggan 10]

See first post

"Why is the Arma community acting like a bunch of three year old kids who have thrown their toys out of the pram?"

Is it so much to ask for as a discussion without it turning into a flame war?

[=wfl= sgt bilko 10]

You guys know you're raging about not being allowed to make missions using a few maps and content of a new mod. There's only about a gazzilion other mods, maps and contents to play around with.

I guess the initial poster is correct in his assupmtions.

Pls move on, close this topic!

[Pfhaota 11]

The way I see it, generally on the topic of EULA's and mods, is that the main reason is to state clearly what the mod is intended for, and how much the very creator of the work allows you to use it for. It may not hold in a court but when you, theoretically, break it you do so aware that you disregard the will of the addon creator. You disregard his intentions for the mod, you disregard the work he has done, and take it's fruits as your own.

You use the work of the Developers to create a product (mission) the developers don't want you to create. Sure, maybe it can be legal, but should you do it?

-P

[minimalaco 30]

Is it so much to ask for as a discussion without it turning into a flame war?

discuss what? there is nothing to discuss.

debate begins when both parties are willing to talk. here the other part (PR), says that the white is white, but you insist that this is black.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Minimalaco

[Spartan 163 0]

Lets try this:

/force close

[dsi24 12]

The PR team isn't creating an addon pack or a mission pack, they're making a game. Just as much as BIS is making ArmA3, the PR team is making PR:ArmA2. Just by watching their tutorials you can tell that the assets, gamemodes, missions, and UI are intertwined.

Generally the servers a PvP focused game has are either the same or are incredibly similar, note that even in PR:BF2, every server has its own little quirks, mostly related to premium membership in their respective communities, but also in relation to administration utilities and rules. But, and this is important, the technical aspects of gameplay in every server - hosting the same gamemode - are the same. That is incredibly unlikely to happen (See: ArmA2, Gmod, and to a somewhat lesser extent, CS:S and TF2) without some form of official agreement between the server owners and developers, this is also why the majority of mainstream PvP games are moving to a "rent from hosts that have licensed with us" instead of releasing public server files. (Why they aren't just asking individuals to license from them directly, like PR, is another question...)

PR's EULA itself is incredibly basic (I wonder, how many people actually read it before they raged?), enough to protect the game that they intend to make and be played, except for section 6 and 7, which regard military use and the BAF files. If anyone here finds an EULA such as this shocking they should look at the EULAs for other games/products they've installed.

[rhaggan 10]

discuss what? there is nothing to discuss.

debate begins when both parties are willing to talk. here the other part (PR), says that the white is white, but you insist that this is black.

Its not aimed at PR see W0lle's post, its a generalised discussion because of the attitudes seen on the forums as of late.

Edit: Can we attempt to move away from the PR discussion although if you are making a point you could use it but as I mentioned this is aimed at a more generlised discussion.

[Gorkounov 10]

The PR team isn't creating an addon pack or a mission pack, they're making a game. Just as much as BIS is making ArmA3, the PR team is making PR:ArmA2. Just by watching their tutorials you can tell that the assets, gamemodes, missions, and UI are intertwined.

Generally the servers a PvP focused game has are either the same or are incredibly similar, note that even in PR:BF2, every server has its own little quirks, mostly related to premium membership in their respective communities, but also in relation to administration utilities and rules. But, and this is important, the technical aspects of gameplay in every server - hosting the same gamemode - are the same. That is incredibly unlikely to happen (See: ArmA2, Gmod, and to a somewhat lesser extent, CS:S and TF2) without some form of official agreement between the server owners and developers, this is also why the majority of mainstream PvP games are moving to a "rent from hosts that have licensed with us" instead of releasing public server files. (Why they aren't just asking individuals to license from them directly, like PR, is another question...)

PR's EULA itself is incredibly basic (I wonder, how many people actually read it before they raged?), enough to protect the game that they intend to make and be played, except for section 6 and 7, which regard military use and the BAF files. If anyone here finds an EULA such as this shocking they should look at the EULAs for other games/products they've installed.

This guy sums up it perfectly.

[JdB 151]

Surely the EULA is the responsibility of the mod or addon not for the community to dictate how they "think" it should be?

this is aimed at a more generalized discussion.

Generally speaking, most will accept the decisions a mod team or an addonmaker makes (or a decision BIS makes for that matter). There are those however that like to argue the same thing over and over again, even though they have no say in the matter, and even though the mod team in question has made it clear that they are sticking to their own ideas (/principles/standards etc). That's something the moderators should always look after. People can make their point, but once the mod team makes it's decision, it's time to stop the complaining, suggesting, asking, whining, spamming, bashing or whatever way people try to get their way on a specific matter. Threads have no value if they can be allowed to go around in circles all the time because of a rotten apple or two spoiling it for everyone that is genuinely interested.

The PR thread is just the latest example of a trend that has been going on for years, another example being virtually any thread about authors rights and people's opinions and attitudes towards those rights, as well as virtually any big mod having experienced this kind of behaviour at some point on issues ranging from the obvious to the downright ridiculous. God knows how many times some mods have been asked about compatibility with other mods, with the answer by the mod team itself being clear for all to see, and still people keep going on about it. Quite often the same members behave like this repeatedly in the same thread, as well as across many different threads. If you have brought up a subject three times already, how big does anyone really think that the chance is that the mod team will suddenly think completely the opposite of what they've been intending to do all along.

So to sum it up:

If a mod doesn't make what you want, if they do not work in a way that is acceptable to you, if they place restrictions you aren't happy with, or if they in any other way displease you to the point where you feel challenged in your freedom to play a game with modifications developed for free, released for free, do us all a favor and download a mod that does meet your stringent requirements. Complaining about what you perceive as a problem (in all it's forms) over and over again won't make any difference.

People keep bringing up the authors rights issue, and says things like open source and sharing are important, it helps people, it has always been this way and therefore it should always stay that way, and people that don't agree with this should be stopped from deciding what can and can't be done with their work up to what they consider a reasonable level. But they're forgetting one thing. The ownership belongs solely to the original author who is the sole decider of what can legally be done with his work, they can do whatever they want with it, and they can decide what you are and aren't legally allowed to do with it within the limits of the original intention behind the IP, regardless if the content was paid for, or if it was downloaded for free. No one is obliged to adhere to what some people mistake for the "spirit of the community", being able to download everything for free also meaning that everything must be open for everyone, and that everyone should be able to do "personal" edits. That has never been the "spirit of the community", asking people for help, permission and resources is what used to be the spirit of the community. Something which has faded away in the last couple of years with people that have no respect for an author's wishes, and self-entitle themselves control over other people's work for their own purposes, whatever those may be.

Edited August 28, 2011 by JdB

[celery 8]

The PR team isn't creating an addon pack or a mission pack, they're making a game. Just as much as BIS is making ArmA3, the PR team is making PR:ArmA2. Just by watching their tutorials you can tell that the assets, gamemodes, missions, and UI are intertwined.

Generally the servers a PvP focused game has are either the same or are incredibly similar, note that even in PR:BF2, every server has its own little quirks, mostly related to premium membership in their respective communities, but also in relation to administration utilities and rules. But, and this is important, the technical aspects of gameplay in every server - hosting the same gamemode - are the same. That is incredibly unlikely to happen (See: ArmA2, Gmod, and to a somewhat lesser extent, CS:S and TF2) without some form of official agreement between the server owners and developers, this is also why the majority of mainstream PvP games are moving to a "rent from hosts that have licensed with us" instead of releasing public server files. (Why they aren't just asking individuals to license from them directly, like PR, is another question...)

PR's EULA itself is incredibly basic (I wonder, how many people actually read it before they raged?), enough to protect the game that they intend to make and be played, except for section 6 and 7, which regard military use and the BAF files. If anyone here finds an EULA such as this shocking they should look at the EULAs for other games/products they've installed.

I hate to burst your bubble but A2PR, as far as the public knows about it at this stage, is a relatively small mod that only adds some units, copies a few features from other mods and has a new graphical layout. There are dozens of Arma 2 mods that by your logic are more their separate games than A2PR will ever be.

It's exactly that "we're making a game" attitude contrasted by the output of the modding team that sets people off. The assumption that you can prevent the community from making missions and hosting games is extremely arrogant.

[dmarkwick 261]

What is the difference between TvT and PvP?

Hey, in a community of ever increasing finer details of description, it's gonna be very important to somebody :D

[Bee8190 10]

It's exactly that "we're making a game" attitude contrasted by the output of the modding team that sets people off. The assumption that you can prevent the community from making missions and hosting games is extremely arrogant.

People? What i seen so far, that would be you, hellfire whatever and just few others that find ''that'' extremely arrogant.

Makes me wonder, aren't you the ones, who's really arrogant here?

You can edit your mission to any degree you like (arma),with pretty much exactly same units, yet should anybody release ''additional content'' you go all mad for not being permitted to do so publicaly becouse developer is trying to keep their latter/standard?

[dmarkwick 261]

It's exactly that "we're making a game" attitude contrasted by the output of the modding team that sets people off. The assumption that you can prevent the community from making missions and hosting games is extremely arrogant.

Is it more, or less, arrogant than people who say you cannot use the content of their addons for any other purpose? Or about the same?

[dsi24 12]

I hate to burst your bubble but A2PR, as far as the public knows about it at this stage, is a relatively small mod that only adds some units, copies a few features from other mods and has a new graphical layout. There are dozens of Arma 2 mods that by your logic are more their separate games than A2PR will ever be.

It's exactly that "we're making a game" attitude contrasted by the output of the modding team that sets people off. The assumption that you can prevent the community from making missions and hosting games is extremely arrogant.

You're only looking at the tangible (as tangible as data is at least) code and other assets, by creating a stable environment through an EULA and hosting licenses, PR:ArmA2 is setting up what no other ArmA2 (and AFAIK any BIS game) mod has done, a PvP ready game that won't hemorrhage players due to needlessly complicated set up. Simply download an exe(s), run, and play, no messing with a file structure, no messing with updater programs, and no worries about file mismatches. (Except for updates of course, but with a standalone game you don't have to worry about compatibility with 3rd parties, so updates won't be needed often)

Except (from what I gather) you aren't stopped from making missions or hosting games, just expect issues if you try to run an unapproved mission on an approved dedicated server, or running an unapproved dedicated server at all. (I welcome counter-evidence, but sadly opinions don't count!)

Edited August 28, 2011 by dsi24
accidentally a whole word

[galzohar 31]

Well I didn't bother tracking it down to the source but there was talk about black screen when you join an unofficial server. This sort of thing may be the thing that keeps the mod alive, but may also be the thing that kills it. Full servers on one hand, but only for those who can get in (both due to slot limit and ping limitations), with the rest not being able to play. We'll have to see how it plays out in the end. After all everyone must agree that empty servers or many servers running the same thing each with just a few players is not very fun when the game mode is made for a large number of players.

Overall these insane EULA stuff can be good, can be bad, and you can't tell until you put it to the test of reality.

[SPC.Spets 21]

What is the difference between TvT and PvP?

well, as I see. PvP is like COD or CS and TvT like BF

[dsi24 12]

Well I didn't bother tracking it down to the source but there was talk about black screen when you join an unofficial server. This sort of thing may be the thing that keeps the mod alive, but may also be the thing that kills it. Full servers on one hand, but only for those who can get in (both due to slot limit and ping limitations), with the rest not being able to play. We'll have to see how it plays out in the end. After all everyone must agree that empty servers or many servers running the same thing each with just a few players is not very fun when the game mode is made for a large number of players.

Overall these insane EULA stuff can be good, can be bad, and you can't tell until you put it to the test of reality.

LAN servers are still allowed (it's in that thread somewhere...) and, hopefully, everyone knows about Hamachi.

You're right though, EULAs can be good, or they can be bad, just take a look at Origin's EULA allowing EA to collect information on your entire computer, including what software you have and have running, without direct permission. (It was changed after people found out of course, but still...)

About TvT vs PvP: Team v Team just tells you that there are teams, not whether they are humans or not, Player v Player implies there are only humans. Which is, AFAWK, how PR:ArmA2 is going to be.

[Gorkounov 10]

Well I didn't bother tracking it down to the source but there was talk about black screen when you join an unofficial server. This sort of thing may be the thing that keeps the mod alive, but may also be the thing that kills it. Full servers on one hand, but only for those who can get in (both due to slot limit and ping limitations), with the rest not being able to play. We'll have to see how it plays out in the end. After all everyone must agree that empty servers or many servers running the same thing each with just a few players is not very fun when the game mode is made for a large number of players.

Overall these insane EULA stuff can be good, can be bad, and you can't tell until you put it to the test of reality.

Yeah this is true. Here's the source.

The server issue, is covered using a server whitelist on our realitymod host, that will cross reference with the client. Meaning if a client attempts to join a non official PR server (ie not on the whitelist), the screen will black out and he will be unable to join.

So, in case anyone wants to just host missions or whatever with a group of friends just use hamachi.

[max power 21]

Hmmm... I wonder if everyone read W0lle's post? Discussing PR's security features is very exciting, however, discussing circumventing them is possibly not the best use of our time- especially considering we were just told not to discuss PR directly.

I think- and the body of the thread is strong evidence- that lots of people have lots of different ideas about the nature, strength, and intent of EULAs and licenses. Perhaps this is why it often a subject of 'community obsession'. I think this thread, despite some mud slinging, is actually doing more to help even out the gap in ideas more than most of the other previous threads. It would be a shame for this thread to be locked.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Max Power

[PuFu 4600]

there are several view on the subject (it is very generalized, don't take it as a rule):

1. the addon makers (or the part that actually had issues before),

2. the mission makers (who most of the time wanna use the features and content available in an addon/mod without restrictions)

3. consumers/users (who wanna have total liberty when messing around in editor (i guess).

well, i still stand besides my first post in this thread regarding rights and EULA usage

[Pfhaota 11]

Frankly this is very much a non issue. My very gut feeling tells me that the restrictions will be relaxed over time, not completely removed, but relaxed. This due to the very tradition of community addon making for PR:BF2 where maps (islands) has been created for just one independent event, and that has been ok as long as it's an locked event. Where entire factions has been created for the mod and so on, and so on. This is comparable to the mission tradition of ARMA.

What the PR-team tries to do is create a culture where their content is not used for another persons mission. At least not to begin with.

-Pfhaota

[DAP 619]

See first post

"Why is the Arma community acting like a bunch of three year old kids who have thrown their toys out of the pram?"

Is it so much to ask for as a discussion without it turning into a flame war?

This is all on topic. PR just an example. Now - PR, tomorrow - someone else. This is not matter. Topic title sounds: "Is the Arma Communtiy getting too obsessed with legal issuse such as EULA's ?" and answer for me - yes. Community is totally insane about this.

P.S. Just troll the can see troll there, where it is not :D Wolle, Sorry about that :)

Edited August 28, 2011 by DAP

[PuFu 4600]

"Is the Arma Communtiy getting too obsessed with legal issuse such as EULA's ?" and answer for me - yes. Community is totally insane about this.

and why is that?

[DAP 619]

and why is that?

Reread whole topic :) This is not about polite, tolerance, helping each other to make game better. This is all about narcissism. Maybe I'm an idealist and I have hope in best in people. But here is no place for that :D