Is the Arma Communtiy getting too obsessed with legal issuse such as EULA's ?

[katipo66 94]

@Noubernou - Maybe don't take it so personal? I mean they have put the work in and are bringing what looks to be some awesome online gameplay, Finally... for free.

Maybe we should just relax and appreciate the effort..

[noubernou 77]

Maybe don't take it so personal? I mean they have put the work in and are bringing what looks to be some awesome online gameplay, for free.

Maybe we should just relax and appreciate the effort..

Yea, because ignoring problems is how you fix them! ;)

:rolleyes:

[PuFu 4591]

No, of course not, but you wouldn't be able to sue me if I made an addon for the same game that re-enabled all that stuff with out touching your code. That is the point I am trying to make.

That is the only sane thing i have heard this entire day...props for beeing one of the few who actually uses his brain.

Their EULA is trying to enforce restrictions on your right to use ArmA2 in certain ways that are already granted, which they have no right to do.

Again, their EULA is something none of use seen. If the said eula breaks BIS one, then it is null, and saying you cannot PR with whatever other addon you feel like - including one that would nullify the said restrictions would do just that - break BIS one.

Obviously, the suing over this sort of thing is laughable at best, as no one would be able to international sue another person around the globe over something without commercial value, so i wasn't even considering it, but rather the principles.

[hellfire257 3]

@Noubernou - Maybe don't take it so personal? I mean they have put the work in and are bringing what looks to be some awesome online gameplay, Finally... for free.

Maybe we should just relax and appreciate the effort..

I've had awesome online gameplay since I purchased ARMA2. You've just got to know where to look, same as any online game.

[noubernou 77]

That is the only sane thing i have heard this entire day...props for beeing one of the few who actually uses his brain.

Again, their EULA is something none of use seen. If the said eula breaks BIS one, then it is null, and saying you cannot PR with whatever other addon you feel like - including one that would nullify the said restrictions would do just that - break BIS one.

Obviously, the suing over this sort of thing is laughable at best, as no one would be able to international sue another person around the globe over something without commercial value, so i wasn't even considering it, but rather the principles.

When I say their EULA, I mean what UK Force said here: http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=2010563&postcount=1775

That seems to define major parts of their EULA.

[katipo66 94]

Yea, because ignoring problems is how you fix them! ;)

:rolleyes:

Well, I guess for me there's no problem... But good luck fixing yours.

[noubernou 77]

I've had awesome online gameplay since I purchased ARMA2. You've just got to know where to look, same as any online game.

Not to go wildly offtopic, but yea, the gameplay online is fine already, you just have to be willing to put some effort into finding out where to play, which really is not that much effort.

And that being said, if the quality of play in ArmA2 online becomes more like the quality of play in PR BF2 because of PR for Arma then I will be very sad. The community I am in has had dozens of new members over the last few months, and most of them came from the PR community in BF2, and most of them are incompetent and have some very odd ideas of teamwork (read: none).

[rhaggan 10]

But then the some people in the Arma 2 community also have strange ideas of team work.

[noubernou 77]

That is true, anyway back on topic, ignore random jab at PR player base. :p

[-GR-Operative 10]

Not to go wildly offtopic, but yea, the gameplay online is fine already, you just have to be willing to put some effort into finding out where to play, which really is not that much effort.

And that being said, if the quality of play in ArmA2 online becomes more like the quality of play in PR BF2 because of PR for Arma then I will be very sad. The community I am in has had dozens of new members over the last few months, and most of them came from the PR community in BF2, and most of them are incompetent and have some very odd ideas of teamwork (read: none).

Nou, please, don't take the issue personally. Isn't ArmA2 a sand-box game? Isn't it meant to be played the way you want it? You can go all tacticool or rambo style, only need some refinements. You are accusing the BF2 newcomers of playing the game the way they want, lol.

[noubernou 77]

Operative;2011954']Nou' date=' please, don't take the issue personally. Isn't ArmA2 a sand-box game? Isn't it meant to be played the way you want it? You can go all tacticool or rambo style, only need some refinements. You are accusing the BF2 newcomers of playing the game the way they want, lol.[/quote']

In a community that has established methods of play... So yea I can accuse them of not playing properly when they come into a situation that they should understand is not going to be "however they want."

We do not play Domi, we do not play Insurgency, we play only coop and tvt missions that have set objectives and limited amounts of time to play and include briefing and organization based on leaders chosen for that mission.

[maddogx 13]

When I say their EULA, I mean what UK Force said here: http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=2010563&postcount=1775

That seems to define major parts of their EULA.

This is the real source of the confusion/conflict that exists here right now - at least for me, because I read some vital things from that post:

1. Among other things, the EULA governs usage rights of the BIS content contained within the mod.

2. That would mean that BIS have probably had a hand in creating the EULA and are thus aware of its full content.

3. Apparently this EULA also bars people from creating any kind of custom content or running servers using PR without acquiring explicit consent and/or a license.

4. If 2 and 3 are true, it follows that BIS supports the heavy restrictions implied by the EULA.

Point 4, if true, conflicts with the idea that such a EULA would be void in the context of Arma2, since BIS are obviously the people who wrote the Arma2 EULA.

More than anything else, at this point I'm mainly curious to see how all this plays out, because something just doesn't add up.

[-GR-Operative 10]

In a community that has established methods of play... So yea I can accuse them of not playing properly when they come into a situation that they should understand is not going to be "however they want."

We do not play Domi, we do not play Insurgency, we play only coop and tvt missions that have set objectives and limited amounts of time to play and include briefing and organization based on leaders chosen for that mission.

If you are talking about given servers that follow strict rules and all, that's okay, they can impose a playing style for the players.

[noubernou 77]

Operative;2011962']If you are talking about given servers that follow strict rules and all' date=' that's okay, they can impose a playing style for the players.[/quote']

Yes. I am not saying they are all bad, it is just they have been slower to adapt to the more serious style of play that ArmA2 demands usually. A lot of them are younger too, in their mid-teens, etc, so they tend to be a bit less mature.

[Bee8190 10]

That is true, anyway back on topic, ignore random jab at PR player base. :p

I will just do that becouse that statemant was complete shot in dark you sir obviously never even played that game.

[noubernou 77]

I will just do that becouse that statemant was complete shot in dark you sir obviously never even played that game.

I don't have to had to if I am describing people I have encountered that have. :rolleyes: Yea, there is probably a bunch of fine players in PR, but none that I have seen really, especially as of late.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Let's not go off topic here.

[coopr 10]

Yes. I am not saying they are all bad, it is just they have been slower to adapt to the more serious style of play that ArmA2 demands usually. A lot of them are younger too, in their mid-teens, etc, so they tend to be a bit less mature.

Omg this seriously made me Rol over the floor.. are you the freaking arma2 docter Phil... jezus! You seem to be very sacred of the unknown do you check under your bed before you go to sleep? Pr bf2 players are a whole other level as regular bf2 players. Maybe you should play the mod before you start telling this kind of carp.. Wtf

[dunedain 48]

I don't have to had to if I am describing people I have encountered that have. :rolleyes: Yea, there is probably a bunch of fine players in PR, but none that I have seen really, especially as of late.

Well from my little experience on PR that's not only a bunch of fine players... What you are describing as "incompetent teens unable to think as a team" are definitely not the typical player on PR. If they just discover Arma2 and take time to adapt well so be it ... You think you're part of an elite or something ?

Anyway I think that's pathetic rant on PR should stop. I'm surprised mods let this discussion continue...

I won't repeat what has been said by PuFu, MadDogX and DM, but I totally agree with them.

[draakon 11]

*puts his novice lawyer suit on* (TL DR version at the bottom)

Alright, its seems that everyone is thinking here that whatever is written in EULA can't be backed up by legal actions. Well, I am sorry to say this but heres a news flash for you:

Yes they can!

I might not know much about US laws, but in most EU countries, EULA or even a TOS acts as the lowest point of a law tree so to speak. Like I said in the PR topic, most laws are categorized in a tree like fashion. The top one being the Constitution. No matter what, Constitution must be followed, including making new laws or changing old ones. Only way to make a new entry in the Constitution, modify it or delete an entry is to have a country wide public vote called referendum.

Anyway, thats not the point I am trying to make. The point I am trying to make is that EULA, TOS or any license agreement that comes with a software product (either retail or from digital distribution) is at the lowest point in the law tree. Just like school rules are, where they have written rules what a student can and can't do. So whatever is written in any EULA of software (including the PR EULA), you have to follow it, no matter of what.

Yes, software authors are allowed to write anything they wish in a EULA. Well, not everything of course (they have to follow the higher tier laws in the law tree), but if that means when you install the software, you are not allowed to make additional content for this software (missions, new models or textures etc). Breaching that point can result from cease and deceit to a law suit. Normally, law suit is only allowed when there is a serious damage done.

Another good fact is that EULAs not only say what you can and what you can't do with a software, its also a legal bind between the end user and the author about using the software its self.

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Anyway, thats enough about EULA itself, there is also another fact I want talk about.

Let's say I make an addon. An addon that is purely dedicated around in improving the Warfare game mode. The addon has lots of new features, like a proper RTS mode for a commander, new vehicles and so on. Like a total conversion mod purely dedicated around the warfare game mode. I made the addon to improve Warfare according to my taste and visions. And one of my visions about Warfare itself should had been like this from the beginning. Now, the best way for me to keep that vision, is to use a EULA similar to PR. That means, I can be assured that my vision about Warfare remains, it is going to be as I made it and no one can ruin that.

That is kinda something similar to PR. But NOT EXACTLY THE SAME.

I understand that all mission and mod makers out here, in this community like to rip, rape, modify, do WHATEVER the hell they wish with an addon. Its just like communisim, right? Well, that brings me to a problem that every non-mission and non-addon makers (aka the players) have at the moment and just stick with vanilla Arma 2: A lot of communities are using X versions and Y versions of this and that.

For example, lets take ACE. There are only few public servers that just run plain ACE and/or their respective addons. And when I mean few I mean 1-5. And out of those few, 50%-80% are locked servers. That usually means, that a player wanting to play with ACE on a public server has to go and even download MORE addons just so he can play ACE on a domination mission. But once he reaches there, it actually turns out that this domination is not so much domination any more. Its has been rape modified to hell.

Thats something that PR wants to exclude. They don't want to have servers where medics have unlimited bandages and other stuff. They don't want servers where there are more (and by more, I mean 10 or even more) addons ran at the same time that have nothing to do with PR at all (for example, a bunch of ACE servers are running a X or Y island addon without there being missions for it).

This way, PR can accomplish 1 mayor thing on the multiplayer scene: A player only needs to download 1 setup file or archive, install the addon and he doesn't need to download anything else. THIS is what PR is trying to achieve.

-----------------------------------------

EULA: No matter what, you must follow them or be prepared for legal action.

(Example: Mafia 2 demo)

PR: 1 download only, no need to download any other addons that don't have anything to do with PR at all. Helps players by letting them play the damn thing and not download a bunch of pointless addons.

And finally:

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, YOU CAN GO AWAY. No one is forcing you to play PR:

[Tankbuster 1733]

In the case of PR, almost everything in the terms and conditions was a direct attack against the spirit of the community. No EULA will prevent theft, and imposing laughably strict restrictions only makes the addon team seem like self-important pricks on an ego trip. Theft has, is, and will always be dealt with whenever it's discovered.

Well said that man.

I wonder if BIS knew this was going to be the case, would have granted PR quite such privileged access to content that the rest of us can't get at? I sincerely hope not.

[cannonouscrash 12]

Yes. I am not saying they are all bad, it is just they have been slower to adapt to the more serious style of play that ArmA2 demands usually. A lot of them are younger too, in their mid-teens, etc, so they tend to be a bit less mature.

Omg this seriously made me Rol over the floor.. are you the freaking arma2 docter Phil... jezus! You seem to be very sacred of the unknown do you check under your bed before you go to sleep? Pr bf2 players are a whole other level as regular bf2 players. Maybe you should play the mod before you start telling this kind of carp.. Wtf

You may well of just proved his point.

But I think what Nou was refering to was that people who play Arma now, is because they like the game and all its abilities.

PR is going to be its own self contained mod, to suit people who dont play arma for how it was intended. This isnt a slur on PR, I am very much looking forward to it, but its just another a game mode and not the game mode that I bought ArmA for.

[DAP 619]

EULA: No matter what, you must follow them or be prepared for legal action.

(Example: Mafia 2 demo)

PR: 1 download only, no need to download any other addons that don't have anything to do with PR at all. Helps players by letting them play the damn thing and not download a bunch of pointless addons.

And finally:

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, YOU CAN GO AWAY. No one is forcing you to play PR:

Great point of view :D Very revealing :D So I can say: Take your hands off from ARMA :D Go find another engine for PR :D

Back to topic: I am interested in official opinion from BIS about this situation. And which exactly rights BIS give to PR team. Is this normal, when mod team replace original EULA, from original copyright нolder, with their derivative "EULA"?

[NoRailgunner 0]

Wait till PR Mod is released, try it out and decide if you like it or not. Simple.

If you have questions - ask them friendly and I'm sure you will get a answer from PR devs (sooner or later).

We reap what we sow.

[Bee8190 10]

*sight*

Anyways, its not like PR is going to take over arma, who wants to keep playing arma will continue to do so and as i said in my previous posts, the MP scene of arma can just get better.(speaking of my own experience)

Edited August 27, 2011 by Bee8190