England 'Riots'

[jblackrupert 14]

Get a grip. And please, don't ever try to justify the beatdown on Rodney King because he was high .

I didn't say he should have been beaten because he was high on drugs.

I said, he probably was not complying with the cops because he was high on PCP which he has admitted himself on video a few years later.

Have you ever seen someone high on PCP??? People on PCP feel no pain, have the strength of easily 5-10 full size men and have been known to literally pull parts of their own faces off in a insane rage and then eat it.

Edited August 10, 2011 by jblackrupert

[froggyluv 2136]

I didn't say he should have been beaten because he was high on drugs.

I said, he probably was not complying with the cops because he was high on PCP which he has admitted himself on video a few years later.

Have you ever seen someone high on PCP??? People on PCP feel no pain, have the strength of easily 5-10 full size men and have been known to literally pull parts of their own faces off in a insane rage.

Yes, I have seen them, but there is no evidence that he made any "move" to make the officers feel that threatened that they had to beat him mercilously while yelling racial epithats.

For instance, I live in a rich, 98% caucasion college town and this year two cops were beaten badly by drunk college students on seperate occasions. Beaten, as in broken bones and hospital stays -were these youngsters beaten severely by the arresting officers? no.

If you dont see a double standard here, I can't help you.

[jblackrupert 14]

The fact is these rioters are using a known gang member being taken down by police as an excuse.

These big blowups are very very very rarely over an innocent person getting killed or hurt by police for simply being black.

Thats the difference. Hero worshipping of thugs and justifying their behaviour like it's ok and then expecting cops to give him a warm hug.

It's a problem in the black community that even black leaders will admit.

but there is no evidence that he made any "move" to make the officers feel that threatened that they had to beat him mercilously while yelling racial epithats.

By Rodneys own admission he was not complying with the police.

Did it deserve the beatdown. No.

Black, white or purple. When the cops stop you. you stop. they tell you to get down. you get down. that simple. It doesn't matter wether you did something or not.

Edited August 10, 2011 by jblackrupert

[froggyluv 2136]

It's a problem in the black community that even black leaders will admit.

So now your Al Sharpton :p Funny that the one thing you agree with Black Leaders (and Chris Rock) about is when they criticise their own - anything else you agree with them on :rolleyes:

These big blowups are very very very rarely over an innocent person getting killed or hurt by police for simply being black.

I dont know the climate across the pond so I won't even pretend to know whats underlying. Perhaps you are right in that it is just thugs acting out although CNN says they are racially mixed group.

In the case of L.A over Rodney King -it was exactly a "Fuck yall" response to a non-guilty verdict against racist, violent officers who were acquitted by an all white jury. Not that hard to connect the dots here...

Black, white or purple. When the cops stop you. you stop. they tell you to get down. you get down. that simple. It doesn't matter wether you did something or not.

Thats all nice and rainbowy but it aint reality. If there is an societally accepted violent response against minorities by Law Enforcement at both enforcement and judicial levels that are not accepted against their own kind -there will be bloody uprisings.

Edited August 10, 2011 by froggyluv

[Prydain 1]

The fact is these rioters are using a known gang member being taken down by police as an excuse.

They aren't, the media are trying their hardest to say this is the cause of thousands of hopeless youths to run riot up and down the country. Tottenham is a small part of London, a peaceful demonstration of hundreds does not turn into the thousands that are turning out to loot and destroy property. His own friends are saying that it has nothing to do with their march to the police station.

The media pulled the same trick last year, among the hundreds of thousands on the streets protesting a large number went and raided the Tory HQ but nowhere on the BBC, Sky or Channel 4 was there any discussion why or brought attention to it. The discussion was squashed under the distraction stories of a fire extinguisher being thrown off the roof and there was the, ever reliable, bullshit about it being a small number of people

.

[Flash Thunder 10]

They dont know whats justifying the rioting all they know is they want to cause more problems and stir the shit aslong as possible.

[dmarkwick 261]

People want "something" to happen. Well, "something" is happening. As often happens though, it is the lower social classes who do it first, wrongly, in an easily dismissable fashion.

Problem is, when people do it correctly, they are summarily dismissed by the authorities they're demonstrating against. I wonder what the last peaceful demonstration that achieved anything was.

[b0b 10]

Tsk.... as i dont condone the action of some opportunist thieves in these riots, you have to look at the bigger picture.

Last 10 years in UK.... no riots to speak of under nanny state labour.

Soon as the conservatives are in civil change and unrest, the riots start... im beginning to see a pattern forming here.

Yes i lived through the last tory rule and social unrest/riots, although they "were" good at sorting out financial crisis' the tories social policies have ALWAYS come with a high social price.

Plus...,

Bankers still give themselves big bonus'

Suspected corruption in the police force higher ups.

Corruption and crime in the media

Politicians corruption and lack of interest by the judicial system to hold politicians accountable for the fraud they committed with expenses.

etc etc etc etc etc, the list goes on.

Seriously... and you want to know why people are angry?

If the crowds are to a larger extent "youths" then where has this anger come from? Possibly listening to parents distress at the cuts? knowing that most youths wont stand a chance to get to university because of astronomical fees etc? Its no wonder they are feeling disdain and frustration. Not to mention they have just had 10 years of them been handed everything by the labour government..., now the tories are taking it all away. Consumerism gone bad?

Anyone who just writes off these riots as a bunch of thugs just out to cause anarchy with no clue as to why they are doing it.., i suggest to them they are living a sheltered life.

When we see the apathetic middle classes screaming at politicians to protect them, and the politicians cant, thats when we will see the REAL trouble. Boris Johnson had just that.. and its set to get way worse, this is just the beginning as the cuts are just starting to bite.

[Richey79 10]

Some of the people arguing that there are leftist explanations, let alone justifications, for this behaviour come across as extremely naive.

As do those who refuse to see (or hear, in the 'conservatives, innit' sound-bite) the ethnic origin of a majority of those involved in such behaviour.

The riots are nothing to do with party-politics, and everything to do with a culture of entitlement-without-responsibilities that has been ingrained into a generation. When this occurs within a society that over-stretches its police-force and army and at the same time cuts funding for these institutions massively, chaos ensues.

I can't think of another country in the world that would be so lax in dealing with these underclass opportunists. That is the fault of the policies of successive governments of both parties which have stripped the police of their ability and responsibility to respond in any meaningful way to smash-and-grabbers like this.

Of course, if it was a peaceful, genuinely political protest, the police would have engaged in provoking the protesters through 'kettling' and beating innocent by-standers around the head with batons.

[dmarkwick 261]

Some of the people arguing that there are leftist explanations, let alone justifications, for this behaviour come across as extremely naive.

As do those who refuse to see (or hear, in the 'conservatives, innit' sound-bite) the ethnic origin of a majority of those involved in such behaviour.

The riots are nothing to do with party-politics, and everything to do with a culture of entitlement-without-responsibilities that has been ingrained into a generation. When this occurs within a society that over-stretches its police-force and army and at the same time cuts funding for these institutions massively, chaos ensues.

I can't think of another country in the world that would be so lax in dealing with these underclass opportunists. That is the fault of the policies of successive governments of both parties which have stripped the police of their ability and responsibility to respond in any meaningful way to smash-and-grabbers like this.

No-one has said that this behaviour is anything less than opportunistic grabbing. I think that individually most if not all the participants have no political motive at all. It's not a political protest.

The point that is being made, is that it's an endemic behavioural result, not that it has a conscious cause. It may not be a protest over austerity measures, but it is a result of them. It's wrong, misguided, opportunistic, greedy, selfish, all those things yes. But don't mistake explanation for justification, there doesn't exist the link.

Of course, if it was a peaceful, genuinely political protest, the police would have engaged in provoking the protesters through 'kettling' and beating innocent by-standers around the head with batons.

Of course. If it were different, your imagination can fill in the details. Peaceful protests don't achieve anything, as has been proved over & over again.

[demonized 20]

Problem is, when people do it correctly, they are summarily dismissed by the authorities they're demonstrating against. I wonder what the last peaceful demonstration that achieved anything was.

Sad as it is, you are correct.

In our political world, all attempts to work against the governing machine will 99% of the times sucumb to the sheer mass and effectiveness of the opponent.

The opponent drawing on the combined resources of almost all of the media, the combined official resources and unlimited funds and manpower.

Doesnt matter if the opponent is right or wrong, loss means less credibility, less credibilty means chance of loss of power, loss of power means failure.

Any government will fight failure with all possible means.

In many cases government can also be a large corporation or bank etc and draw on the same or similar resources.

Easy example: look at immigration and racisme, or banking.

All words used by those critical to immigration, is under constant scrutiny from those opposed to them.

Labeling them as non tolerant, racists, right wing, right wing extremists etc.

Digging up all the skeletons in their closet, linking them to the "bad" argument in any way possible, showing off those not linked as personal beheaviour or character flaws.

Using media to effectively spray our brains with "this is bad", you might not belive it at first, but after 30 days of recurring "reports", the truth give way, do it 365/24/7 and the truth is what they decide.

Media do cover "bad" stuff about the government, though there is a major difference in the way it is done, and kept alive.

There is no boundries in winning a war, a war is fight for power in the rulers eyes, i know i misuse the word "war" but there is no better word i can think of, "competition" does not cover it, nor a "fight".

Maybe "survival" is a better word.

A cruel example: in spoiler off topic.

Shortly after the masacre on Utøya in Norway, a swedish reporter asked how the leader of the right wing party felt since they were clearly linked to the occuring events and the killer.

She replyed that linking her party with this lunatic is almost as bad as the actions he did.

What followed was the media in Norway hammering down on the party leader, saying she was comparing the horrible events to accusations to her own party.

Siv Jensen, leader of FRP.

original qoute in norwegian:

«I et intervju til NRK i dag kan det høres ut som om jeg sidestiller de forferdelige drapene med politiske angrep på FrP. Det mener jeg selvsagt ikke. Jeg er den første til å beklage om det jeg sa oppfattes galt av noen. Jeg ga et intervju der jeg reagerte på at en svensk journalist koblet FrP til de grusomme handlingene. Det kan selvsagt ikke på noen som helst måte sidestilles med drap på uskyldige.»

my english translation:

"In an interview to NRK today, it sounds like I equate the horrific killings with political attacks on FRP. Of course i do not mean that. I am the first to apologise for if what i said was perceived wrong by anyone. I gave an interview in which i reacted to a swedish journalist linked FRP to the cruel actions. It obviously can not in any way be equated with the killing of innocents"

original norwegian qoute:

- Det kan fremstå sånn, så jeg forstår at noen velger å tolke meg dit, men vær så snill, ikke gjør det. Vær så snill, jeg har hatt krevende dager og masse intervjuer, sier Jensen.

my english translation:

- It can appear that way, so i understand that someone choose to interprit me that way, but please dont. Please, i have had demanding last few days and lots of interviews, says Jensen.

The population raged in all the public forums and facebook, twitter etc.

Link to VG.no case:

This masacre became a goldmine to the politicians in the current rule, they are using its full arsenal to get as much profit as possible out of it.

I realize i may come across as cynical, cruel or insensitive, i despise the actions done on Utøya, but i despise the political misuse of the events even more.

On a related note to the riots:

i saw this picture from the voluntary cleanup of London:

Not sure if its a mockery of the Utøya "lifted roses" thing or a further of the example.

Or maybe just a coincidence...

But its a good initiative the voluntary cleanup, though id feel better if the cleaning was done by the rioters themselves in chains in full public view.

Original story about the civil cleanup with the picture.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Demonized

[b0b 10]

(respectfully snipped)

The point that is being made, is that it's an endemic behavioural result, not that it has a conscious cause. It may not be a protest over austerity measures, but it is a result of them. It's wrong, misguided, opportunistic, greedy, selfish, all those things yes. But don't mistake explanation for justification, there doesn't exist the link.

+1 agreed, Politicians and people of power helping themselves to public monies on a whim..., Now the youth are doing the same in these riots..., who gave out the messages that its ok to take what you want no matter the consequences?. YEs i am angry about the way the coutry has been run over the past 11 years but i dont riot, im one of the apathetic middle class zombies who, and i quote.

"Traded liberty for a quiet life".

Others ( thankfully ) fight a bigger fight.

...., Peaceful protests don't achieve anything, as has been proved over & over again.

Another massive pandoras box, politicians have their agenda for the country and are not listening to the general public.Not to mention the impressions of elitism they are showing over non action of MP's expenses plus all the other corruption.

Civil unrest is inevitable..., i personally predicted this as soon as the tories got into power. I was hopeful that the voice of the libdems would curb the slash and burn of tory policies.

I was obviously deluded.

Mervyn King warned the tories this was going to happen.., they chose to ignore him.

Edited August 10, 2011 by b0b

[walker 0]

Hi all

As I kept pointing out voting Tory means rising crime and riots, a plane historical fact, check the crime rates and numbers of riots under the last Tory government.

When you take out the countries GDP and use it to pay for bankers bonuses rather than having enough police as the conservatives always have then riots and crime is what you get.

Boris Johnson even turned a 180 and said that David Cameron's cutting the police by a third was a wrong idea, interesting as Boris Johnson had originally went along with conservative party policy to cut the extra 5,000 police officers Ken Livingston recruited.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/threat-of-cuts-brings-added-pressure-to-overstretched-police-forces-2335065.html

David Cameron's reply is no we go full steam ahead with even more Tory party, police cuts, totally ignoring what just happened over the weekend as well as steadily rising crime figures. David Cameron's solution is for a vigilante neighbourhood watch.

The results so far of David Cameron's vigilante watch? Three asian men protecting their own streets and the carwash business they run which was under threat, because all the police have been called away to riots, are murdered by a car driver who rammed them when he ran his car up on to the pavement in to them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14471405

Meanwhile the Tory party are busy discussing how to reward the bankers with another top rate tax cut, giving them an even bigger share of the nations GDP, and a bigger reward for scuppering the UK economy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022592/PM-Chancellor-plan-cut-rate-income-tax-45p.html

While inflation puts a flat rate 5% tax rise on everyone in the country.

And the moral of this tale? Corruption in society is rewarded.

This country is going to hell in a hand basket.

Kind Regards walker

Edited August 10, 2011 by walker
grammar

[bangtail 0]

Yourself, bOb, and Markwick (among others) are spot on, this is a simple case of 'lead by example'.

Bad leadership is only ever going to lead in one direction, the wrong direction.

[Tonci87 163]

Amen that. The people in power should be paragons to the citizen. Instead of that they just care about filling their own and their buddies pockets.

The criminals on the streets are doing the same thing, but they usually go to jail for it.

I say get out the waterthrowers and clear those riots, then send them to parliament and Downing street

[dmarkwick 261]

Amen that. The people in power should be paragons to the citizen. Instead of that they just care about filling their own and their buddies pockets.

The criminals on the streets are doing the same thing, but they usually go to jail for it.

I say get out the waterthrowers and clear those riots, then send them to parliament and Downing street

We could even rename it Drowning Street :)

[Tonci87 163]

Was that Herakles who had to clean up shit and changed the course of a river to do it?

Well Thames river isn't far away. We only need a Herakles. ^^

[mrcash2009 0]

Does anyone remember a time when the "youth" were making their own new music revolution and gathering in fields and warehouses to dance the night away?

How things of changed. I for one would admit if I was young now there is so much synthetic crap there isnt much of a "scene" to get into, and back then they worried about people dancing .... dear me.

Everyone will be getting what they can from this, from the looters to the government introducing steps and laws, to that great phrase I here in the media "needs to be seen to be doing something" <<< classic that one to leaders and voting stunts and self promotion.

Its a shame that the younger folk fell for this in some ways, you fight what you become and all that.

Its pretty shoddy to think that an element of younger generation has only one way to express themselves and that's to rob corporate tat, symbolic really. I wonder if any Irony would come from this, IE benefit system private company's getting the jobless out to clear up as "volunteer work" ... interesting that paradox.

And the moral of this tale? Corruption in society is rewarded.

You bet your bottom dollar thats the truth. I heard one lad on the radio "Im gonna keep doing this over and over, they cant doo nuffin, I will get grounded but thats all, no one can do nuffin".

The message was very clear from people getting arrested for defending property (self defence in a robbery etc) to all sorts of crime being given a basic sentence, the over all message always was "do as you will and you wont get punished for it". So in some ways I dont blame half of these copy cat "have a go too" types, as none of them really have any grounding in responsibility of actions what so ever, and where do you look for that? Parents, but then they were youths once, so what, their parents? Start looking at the system itself.

Notice its all post crime too, all after the fact, still no police force dealing with it right away, all "PC" and red tape, where did that come from. All relying on CCTV and less police presence, this gave the green light to let people know how far they can push it .. or the message given out. The MTV generation in effect.

The current system is like being given a ice lolly in one hand then being smacked in the back of the head at the same time with the other, problem is allot of folk only seem to see the hand with the lolly in it :)

From 2007:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/apr/09/frontpagenews.news

Edited August 10, 2011 by mrcash2009

[PELHAM 10]

Was that Herakles who had to clean up shit and changed the course of a river to do it?

Well Thames river isn't far away. We only need a Herakles. ^^

Can you ask him to take a look at this thread when he is finished? :D

[Blackhawk 0]

Labour screw the country up, then it's the Conservatives who have to clean it up, and they get all the trouble

But honestly, the army should have been sent in ASAP, it would have been over within an hour. Seems likes the government are scared of another Northern Ireland breaking out. I believe that one good thing about the British people in general is that they highly respect the Armed Forces, way more than the Police.

[b0b 10]

Labour screw the country up, then it's the Conservatives who have to clean it up, and they get all the trouble

Erm not entirely true, they brought on the ideology change by themselves. Yes labour didnt help at all infact they were sadly delusioned after 10 years of power, but to say they screwed it up all alone is just plain wrong.

But honestly, the army should have been sent in ASAP, it would have been over within an hour. Seems likes the government are scared of another Northern Ireland breaking out. I believe that one good thing about the British people in general is that they highly respect the Armed Forces, way more than the Police.

Apparently there are NO army resources available due to cuts, there was an official statement saying this in the live news feed. Great eh? i bet Liam fox is sweating right now.

Blackhawk, did you read the links that Walker posted? The tory way is more crime and division the 80's and 90's are testament to this. I lived through it at an age i was fully aware what was happening, it wasn't pretty at all if you lived in the North.

[Prydain 1]

Labour screw the country up, then it's the Conservatives who have to clean it up, and they get all the trouble

Labour don't say things like "hug a hoodie" or "Big society". Conservative policy on poverty is "be responsible for your own situation" which is a generalisation that fixes nothing for those trapped in poverty by unfair taxes, unfair tuition fees, unfairly neglected locations, ect while Labour's misguided attempts to generate prosperity through too many schemes show they, at least, acknowledge the problems.

Instead of Torys and the bastard spawn of Thatcher, we need a 4th party willing to contest Labour's madness and not a party that cold-shoulders it. A 4th party because the Lib Dem's idea of being a party is beyond the mind of a rational person.

But honestly, the army should have been sent in ASAP, it would have been over within an hour. Seems likes the government are scared of another Northern Ireland breaking out. I believe that one good thing about the British people in general is that they highly respect the Armed Forces, way more than the Police.

Ah, here we have the rub of your intelligence. After our experience of what happens when you send the army into a situation of civil unrest, you want to get that going again? An army that is currently stretched and totally prepared for deployment to a warzone and you want to send them into a British city? Your having a laugh you madman. No army will ever enter London or Birmingham because we aren't the type of people to break out a water cannon or rubber bullets and start firing at youths, your fucking crazy.

[wooly-back-jack 10]

Labour didn't screw the country up at all, they were still tidying the tory mess from before when the class divide was much more present.

I remember leaving school early 90s and working shifts in a cabinet making place 6-2 / 2-10 for little more than £50 a week and terms and conditions were even worse, workers rights? what were they? I almost lost a finger on a circular saw, I was just turning 16, didn't know what an accident book was or that I shouldn't have been doing a wood machinists job on a labourers wages. The distance we have come from then is because of Labour, If Tories get their way we will go back to that dark world of exploitation and fat-cats taking backhanders from corporations to take away more and more of workers statute terms and conditions.

[jblackrupert 14]

Enoch powell was only off by 30 years.

Interesting

The first 2 start out making sense then decend quickly into the sense of entitlement bullshit.

K7YNbzqLiK0

Edited August 10, 2011 by jblackrupert

[froggyluv 2136]

Ok, this does look pretty bad:

9pVakwBikt8

Looks like they need more cops. Notice how once they take a step backwards how emboldened the mob gets.