Plane and Helicopter handling

[subs17 9]

I think aircraft need more detail in order to make them fully functional on the Arma battlefield and also to bring balance to the sim.

Helicopters:

Western- Airspeed in knots, Altitude in feet.

Gunship- targetting requires ground stabilised image.

JSF

-requires a targetting pod view, TDC slew, ground stabilise and lock/lase for LGBs/mavericks. Could also use A/G radar with lock and CCRP delivery mode.

Requires CCIP sight as well for effective CAS operation for free fall bombs.

Requires airspeed in knots, altitude in feet.

A/A radar requires a scan pattern and modes TWS/STT plus expand view and range/ azimuth control.

All aircraft should have a flight planner for navigation to make them more effective on the Arma battlefield. You could also have a breifing room where flight planning is done and a data cartridge to load the flight plan onto or just an option on the map for this. You also need this NAV steerpoint information on the HUD.

Drone needs to fly higher, much higher needs a ground stailised image to lock on a point on the ground and lase.(current campaign missions only ULB is effective for A/G the UAV flys too fast too low so you cannot effectively shoot or look at anything.)

Realism can be scalable and trainning missions can be made to train people to fly and use weapons. Thats the fun of Arma as it does that so to expand that further a more realistic complexity won't ruin the game or put people off using it. If the devs make TOH compatible with A2/3 then it expands its possibilitys for mp/sp. Ideally if TOH is possible as a combination to A2/3 then it could allow a clickable cockpit which makes things even more fun for the pilot. Remove auto land or have a server option to turn it off for the jet aircraft.

---------- Post added at 11:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 AM ----------

To make the perfect battlefield would be the size of Falcon4s maps for Balkans and Korea theatres as thats the size of an actual battlefield. The most ideal campaign is a dynamic one like in Falcon 4. A Global map is the most prefered as it opens up alot of possiblitys for conflict between countrys.

[twisted 128]

i find the preview tkoh flight model easier to fly than arma2's because after a little practice it feels more intuitive and responsive. no need for flight manual or anything (especially if the option to auto trim is avaialble which i do not like using but it does make things much easier). like to see similar applied to fixed wing aircraft as well.

missiles capabilities and lock on procedure need to be made closer to actuality as well to give aircraft and their pilots skill a more authentic effect on combat. It's all about the people really - skill of the person on ground, in tank or in air should be an influencing factor in any battle. the thing is i hope BIS really evolve these elements of the game and closer replicate the aircraft and its pilots effects on the battlefield.

as is isn't really good enough for the next iteration of Arma. Everything should be evolved.

[NoRailgunner 0]

What about Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (Boeing) and Helmet Mounted Symbology System (BAE) for pilots?

What about some useable realtime datalinks for pilots/crew eg airborne radar, satellite, UAV and other info sharing from reconaissance by air, land and sea?

[liquidpinky 11]

i find the preview tkoh flight model easier to fly than arma2's because after a little practice it feels more intuitive and responsive. no need for flight manual or anything (especially if the option to auto trim is avaialble which i do not like using but it does make things much easier). like to see similar applied to fixed wing aircraft as well.

missiles capabilities and lock on procedure need to be made closer to actuality as well to give aircraft and their pilots skill a more authentic effect on combat. It's all about the people really - skill of the person on ground, in tank or in air should be an influencing factor in any battle. the thing is i hope BIS really evolve these elements of the game and closer replicate the aircraft and its pilots effects on the battlefield.

as is isn't really good enough for the next iteration of Arma. Everything should be evolved.

The Take On flight model is pretty decent once you are used to it.

It allows for quicker landings and take offs as well, so it would be welcome for transport missions.

Anyone afraid of the ToH flight model most probably have not tried it out properly.

[logandog1240 10]

The Take On flight model is pretty decent once you are used to it.

It allows for quicker landings and take offs as well, so it would be welcome for transport missions.

Anyone afraid of the ToH flight model most probably have not tried it out properly.

honestly these guys saying arma 3 needs to keep flying the way it is, are holding it back from its true potential. It is a simulator and as such should SIMULATE real warfare as close as possible, not as close as you want it to. Helicopters like REAL helicopters, planes like REAL planes.

[liquidpinky 11]

honestly these guys saying arma 3 needs to keep flying the way it is, are holding it back from its true potential. It is a simulator and as such should SIMULATE real warfare as close as possible, not as close as you want it to. Helicopters like REAL helicopters, planes like REAL planes.

I agree, and the crashes are more spectacular now as well depending on what breaks on the heli. The nay sayers should at least be up for spectating what looks more like a real life crash.

[neokika 62]

The flying will stay +/- the same as in Arma 2 when in lower difficulty settings. I think this has been confirmed.

_neo_

[dmarkwick 261]

The flying will stay +/- the same as in Arma 2 when in lower difficulty settings. I think this has been confirmed.

_neo_

yes it has certainly been heavily hinted :)

IMO the improved helo FM ought to be complemented by improved crash modeling i.e. more survivable crashes depending on circumstances. PhysX to the rescue? ;)

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

so to all the people that want this game to be super easy for a 5 year old child to shoot/drive/fly bunny hop all over the place, why not just make this game into metal slug the arcade game so it'll be easy for people to learn?

the only reason why you even play this game is for the realism and immersion, so why do you want to take that away from the game?

besides this game was made for the military to SIMULATE war, and helicopter flying, jet flying and vehicle driving is part of war. why do you only want ground infantry to be realistic or maybe you want bis to dumb that down too to attract players from bf3, MW3, counter strike etc and then what do we have? just another version of MW3 on a large map.

infact, why are you even playing this game in the first place?

make the game with adjustable realism, the people that want arcade will join an arcade server and the people that want to realism will play on realistic server. how is that dividing the community anyway? aren't we all playing the same game at the end of the day?

to all the mouse/keyboard pilots out there why not just get a joystick and pedals and learn to fly it PROPERLY. i mean you wouldn't play arma3 on as infantry with a nintendo controller would you? then why would you fly with a keyboard and mouse? don't make the rest of the community that wants this game to grow out of the stone age suffer because you lack the skill or the drive to learn how to operate a certain peice of machinery.

Edited November 6, 2011 by MD500Enthusiast

[onlyrazor 11]

maybe you want bis to dumb that down too to attract players from bf3, MW3, counter strike etc and then what do we have? just another version of MW3 on a large map.

...

to all the mouse/keyboard pilots out there why not just get a joystick and pedals and learn to fly it PROPERLY. i mean you wouldn't play arma3 on as infantry with a nintendo controller would you? then why would you fly with a keyboard and mouse? don't make the rest of the community that wants this game to grow out of the stone age suffer because you lack the skill or the drive to learn how to operate a certain peice of machinery.

Can't tell if stupid or trolling.

First off, respect other players. Just because they play BF3 and CS and MW3 (debatable) doesn't make them morons.

Secondly, you don't need a joystick to fly properly. Since you seem to be a rivet counter, go back to your precious Steel Battalion with its $200 über joysticks :rolleyes:

[dragon01 902]

To have a fully realistic flight experience, you need an (expensive) HOTAS, preferably with pedals. A joystick would suffice in most cases, but not in a high fidelity "study" sim. An option for mouse and keyboard players should be there, because not everybody is capable of learning a new, full flight system to play a game. There's a reason why most soldiers are not trained to fly helos or jets.

Of course, for those who want to use realistic flight model, there should be an option to enable it. Perhaps making it as accurate as in Falcon 4.0 or DCS would be too much for BI (though I'd still welcome it), but a TKoH model should be just fine.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Dragon01

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

Can't tell if stupid or trolling.

First off, respect other players. Just because they play BF3 and CS and MW3 (debatable) doesn't make them morons.

Secondly, you don't need a joystick to fly properly. Since you seem to be a rivet counter, go back to your precious Steel Battalion with its $200 über joysticks :rolleyes:

i never said anyone was a moron, please learn to read. when people play a more arcade like game it doesn't make them a "moron". not that it's any of your business but i happen to own all of those other games.

if arma 3 has toh flight dynamics then yes having a joystick and pedal is required to fly properly.

btw my flight setup is about 1000 dollars, not to gloat or show off but that is the kind dedication i have put into flying helos in a sim/game. i also happen to be a real life helicopter pilot, search youtube for md500enthusiast to find my flying videos.

it also seems i have stepped on your sensitive tail, did some of my points hit home?

Edited November 6, 2011 by MD500Enthusiast

[NoRailgunner 0]

@MD500Enthusiast

BIS games are not made for the military market. Just search for VBS2. ;)

Infact BIS created a niche between casual/mainstream shooter and die hard Supersim. All military games from BIS focus on infantry combat. It would be great if we can have a proper simulation for land vehicles (eg tanksim) and ships too in one game but thats wishful thinking....

Keep in mind not everyone has the time to spend XXX hours to learn+practice all the things just to operate a single vehicle/aircraft. Lets see where BIS will draw the line between "too easy/dumb" and "too time-consuming/negligible". :)

Imho you can't really enjoy to fly on default islands/maps with airplanes. With helicopters its possible somehow but if you see the latest ranges of real military surveillance, radar, SAM's etc it still feels unreal. Guess thats why BIS didn't made any attempt to integrate some functionality in their warfare buildings (AA radar, Arty radar).

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

point taken.

also look at it like this, how many sucessful games has there been for military boat, humvee, tank etc and compare that to the helo/airplane counterparts, there's much more interest in the aviation department from the general public.

anyway i just found out that the fm from toh will be in arma 3 so i'm a happy camper. I was also confused about the difference between flight model and flight dynamics but someone answered my post saying the helos in arma 3 will handle like in toh.

[dragon01 902]

Lemnos is, IIRC, large enough (100x100km?) to enable a decent plane usage. Also, while some people may not consider learning how to fly a complicated plane flight model worthwhile, they could simply select a simplified model. IMHO, ArmAIII should offer an entire scope of difficulties/realism settings from "Tom Clancy's" to "Hardcore Simulator". And perhaps an easier, more intuitive method of customizing the difficulty (it took me a while to find the settings, which is a bad thing).

While ArmA series are not made for military market, VBS series (IIRC) differ mostly by including instructor tools and omitting things like campaign or single missions. You could most likely use AII+ACE2 with some custom content for actual training, though obviously VBS is better for this.

[PuFu 4600]

Lemnos is, IIRC, large enough (100x100km?) to enable a decent plane usage.

LOL! 10.000 km^2? no no no

The real island (land mass) is ~480 km^2. That is about 20 x 24 km.

That said, the game island is gonna be 3/4 of the real thing, so about 360km^2

[roberthammer 582]

I liked to have a DLC with South Asia map from TKOH - it is nice big map , which should be great for mission makers and also for pilots

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

south asia map is kind of barren though.... and almost devoid of vegetation unlike the map i saw in the preview screen shots for arma3

[nodunit 397]

I'd love to see one thing definately change about helo's and that is how they control, right now flying helicopters feels amazingly slow and sluggish, pilots handle flight sticks as they would an egg so any jostle will have effect but you don't see that so much here. I imagine this is primarily a balance between mouse and keyboard but with practice even mouse is viable as long as you have the control to barely push it.

The tradeoff for this of course is that keyboard flight becomes very jerky but if you have that kind of response you won't need the keyboard to push the extra power outside of pedals and climb.

[metalcraze 290]

IMHO, ArmAIII should offer an entire scope of difficulties/realism settings from "Tom Clancy's" to "Hardcore Simulator".

Kids today seem to think that "Tom Clancy's" games were always hollywoodish shit

[Minoza 11]

Kids today seem to think that "Tom Clancy's" games were always hollywoodish shit

Yeah, like that Raven Shield Hollywood stuff! :rolleyes: :p

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah, like that Raven Shield Hollywood stuff! :rolleyes: :p

Why I fly with Mouse and Keyboard:

Because I can

Because I don't need additional expensive hardware

I can even fly DCS with that setup.

While a Joystick can be really great, it shouldn't be a requirement to fly stuff. And I really don't get those hardcore enthusiast with their "stfu ang get a Joystick" attitude. Because I dare to say that I'm propably better at flying stuff than some of them.

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

Why I fly with Mouse and Keyboard:

Because I can

Because I don't need additional expensive hardware

I can even fly DCS with that setup.

While a Joystick can be really great, it shouldn't be a requirement to fly stuff. And I really don't get those hardcore enthusiast with their "stfu ang get a Joystick" attitude. Because I dare to say that I'm propably better at flying stuff than some of them.

perhaps you could find me a real helicopter that currently exists which uses a keyboard and mouse as primary controls for the pilot. just as no car uses a mouse and keyboard for people to drive with. the manufacturers can make it like that because they can but they don't for a reason.

a flying games tries to replicate real flight for the users although there are some limitations such as know how, hardware, software, money and their intention for the game, otherwise why would it behave so similarly to the real thing?

i do not think joystick is a requirement for these games as many people don't have the means to purchase a decent setup, but when those said people want to hold back the potential of a new game to cater to their limited resources that's when i draw the line.

if people with mouse/keyboard are such fine pilots then why complain in the first place if you're able to fly just as well as another player with an expensive setup made for that particular type of flying? i am also not oppose to a realism slider so the people that can't afford to purchase the expensive gear can still use their mouse and keyboard and fly somewhat effectively.

if you just want to jump into a game and start spraying bullets everywhere there are games such as cod and bf that'll be perfect for you.

btw you can fly your dcs because it's easy to fly a coaxial rotor helicopter. try flying a dodosim 206 in fsx with full realism and tell me you can hover perfectly, fly your helo with a perfect normal/steep/shallow approach to a hover and land in the center of the H without struggling for 5 minutes and a smooth gentle touchdown or fly sideways at 20 knots without your nose yawing all over the place, it's hard to do that even with a decent setup. keyboard and mouse will only go so far, if you want a compelling flight experience or want your performance to exceed mediocrity you NEED at least a joystick.

to the argument of if we make helicopter realistic then we'd have to make everything else realistic and everything will be unbalanced, that's not entirely true. think how realistic infantry combat is in arma and compared to all the vehicles available. i dare say in a lot of games people spend equal amount of time on foot as they do in the vehicle. if it is at all possible to bring vehicle realism on par with infantry combat why hold back BiS from doing so, even if it's one type of vehicle at a time?

to those that make the argument well bis made this game to focus on infantry combat etc etc. so you don't want bis to make progress and evolve the game into something that can target a broader range of audience? you want only infantry combat to evolve so far ahead of the vehicle that by the time arma 200 comes out which will play in a holodeck environment that the vehicle still behave like in arma2?

Edited November 7, 2011 by MD500Enthusiast

[Tonci87 163]

perhaps you could find me a real helicopter that currently exists which uses a keyboard and mouse as primary controls for the pilot. just as no car uses a mouse and keyboard for people to drive with. the manufacturers can make it like that because they can't but they don't for a reason.

a flying games tries to replicate real flight for the users although there are some limitations such as know how, hardware, software, money and their intention for the game, otherwise why would it behave so similarly to the real thing?

i do not think joystick is a requirement for these games as many people don't have the means to purchase a decent setup, but when those said people want to hold back the potential of a new game to cater to their limited resources that's when i draw the line.

if people with mouse/keyboard are such fine pilots then why complain in the first place if you're able to fly just as well as another player with an expensive setup made for that particular type of flying? i am also not oppose to a realism slider so the people that can't afford to purchase the expensive gear can still use their mouse and keyboard and fly somewhat effectively.

if you just want to jump into a game and start spraying bullets everywhere there are games such as cod and bf that'll be perfect for you.

btw you can fly your dcs because it's easy to fly a coaxial rotor helicopter. try flying a dodosim 206 in fsx with full realism and tell me you can hover perfectly, fly your helo with a perfect normal/steep/shallow approach to a hover and land in the center of the H without struggling for 5 minutes and a smooth gentle touchdown or fly sideways at 20 knots without your nose yawing all over the place, it's hard to do that even with a decent setup. keyboard and mouse will only go so far, if you want a compelling flight experience or want your performance to exceed mediocrity you NEED at least a joystick.

to the argument of if we make helicopter realistic then we'd have to make everything else realistic and everything will be unbalanced, that's not entirely true. think how realistic infantry combat is in arma and compared to all the vehicles available. i dare say in a lot of games people spend equal amount of time on foot as they do in the vehicle. if it is at all possible to bring vehicle realism on par with infantry combat why hold back BiS from doing so, even if it's one type of vehicle at a time?

to those that make the argument well bis made this game to focus on infantry combat etc etc. so you don't want bis to make progress and evolve the game into something that can target a broader range of audience? you want only infantry combat to evolve so far ahead of the vehicle that by the time arma 200 comes out which will play in a holodeck environment that the vehicle still behave like in arma2?

I think you missunderstood my intention. I don´t want to hold back a developer from creating something realistic! I welcome every step towards realism as long as they leave in the Option to fly the damn thing with M+K.

If you love joysticks so much, then you will gonna need a second one. Many tanks are controlled by two "sticks" IRL

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

i actually have two LOL. but that's the beauty of this game, i don't have to drive a tank if i dont' want to =, i do mostly transport chopper.