They better have female soldiers...

[metalcraze 290]

The US army can brag about their "high performance" soldiers all day long, they never had to fend an invading force on their own land.

It says a lot that nobody dares to.

All this doesn't even matter, it's a game, the devs can implement whatever the hell they want. So can we go back on topic?

They didn't implement female soldiers. Judging by the "on topic" and your posts in particular - it seems that no they have no right to implement whatever the hell they want.

But this is a highly amusing thread nonetheless. Same people who cry "I won't play this game because it has only male soldiers in it" are also making posts accusing me and other people of sexism :rolleyes:

[johncage 30]

The US army can brag about their "high performance" soldiers all day long, they never had to fend an invading force on their own land. When this happen you usually count on those willing to defend the country, regardless of their age or gender.

All this doesn't even matter, it's a game, the devs can implement whatever the hell they want. So can we go back on topic?[/QU war?OTE]

Revolutionary war? You sound butt hurt. Not only is your argument failing, so is your grasp of history.

ouch.

[Mirudes 1]

I am somehow undecided between the first 2 answers. That's why I voted for the first option. Because i want all female models in game capable to do everything. I don't ever want to see a civilian woman standing on a motorbike again. Never more.

[r3volution 0]

Scrim: I apologise that I made the mistake of assuming that more NATO countries were forward thinking. But please don't let that one little assumption on my part stop you from understanding that the most significant NATO member countries either have allowed or are allowing women on the frontlines. That women are and have been engaged in combat during the past 10 years as infantry. Let the man who builds no arguments out of straw call straw-manning.

So it's a choice between

ARMA: THIS IS WAR (but with just men)

or

ARMA: THIS IS WAR

And a lot of stuff in this thread is still probably better suited for a thread called 'Wai Wimmin shuddunt be inna armiez"

[derk yall 0]

I don't understand, why all of you speak about roles in ArmA games as if there were no support roles. In every ArmA games (at least since ArmA 1 patch wich included them) you have support vehicles (refuel, repair, ambulance etc.) for use in singleplayer/multiplayer missions. Dont forget about the roles of the ship technicians in ArmA 2, wich are also not a combat role. So there are plenty of only supporting roles if you want to take the approach that womens should be only in these roles.

But don't also forget, that ArmA games are set in fictional ArmAverse, wich does not depict the real world. And having womens in combat roles is not only the question of the main forces. There is also the resistance, wich is not bound by any restrictions.

about NATO armies:

My country's army allow women to be logistic, medical staff, combat pilots (jets and helicopters), combat drivers, combat soldiers, military police but I have not heard of any in the Special Force. That army is part of NATO and women represents cca 15-20% of the staff. There are no separatare requirements for womens, they have the same requirements as mens.

[scrim 1]

R3v: Ah yes, again you frame this as being a matter of me, and several others, whom you do not respond to, not wanting women in the game. You use a cowardly debate technique, where you make up 100% fictional arguments for you to respond to, insult those who oppose you by subliminally telling them that they're stupid, ignorant sexists, ignore facts when presented with them, and outright lie.

Why don't you go ahead and respond to the article PN11A pasted? Or the medical facts stated in the British report I linked to?

[r3volution 0]

SO. Where is the 100% fiction? The thing that makes this sexist is that this is an argument about whether female soldiers who ARE there should be represented in the game. And those who are arguing against it keep conflating that, with talking about why women aren't suited to frontline service. THAT'S why this is being sexist.

I will just rest my case here as I feel that further 'argument' on this issue is not achieving much beyond chewing up server space.

I hope that the Developers will acknowledge the fact that women are on the frontlines in current combat, and reflect this reality in the game.

[scrim 1]

Shall we start off with "most NATO countries allow women to serve in combat roles", followed by a long list of non-NATO countries? Or your constant refusals to accept that women lack the strenght men have, which is required for infantrymen to pull their own weight? Or accusing people of being sexists who don't want female characters in the game, despite many clear statements to the contrary? Those are some of your lies, your 100% fiction.

[r3volution 0]

Shall we start off with "most NATO countries allow women to serve in combat roles", followed by a long list of non-NATO countries?

Like I said when I had revised my point, most NATO countries allow women to serve in roles which they are exposed to combat. The most significant NATO member countries either allow women in Infantry units or are in the process of doing so. You are ignoring the facts here not me.

Or your constant refusals to accept that women lack the strenght men have, which is required for infantrymen to pull their own weight?

There you go again conflating the arguments. Do you read my posts?

Or accusing people of being sexists who don't want female characters in the game, despite many clear statements to the contrary? Those are some of your lies, your 100% fiction.

I think that it's fair to say that not wanting women in a game is sexist. If I say I don't want black people in a game, but state clearly I'm not racist, I'd still be a racist.

[scrim 1]

Wow, you're still lying through your teeth about me and several others not wanting female characters in the game. Pathetic...

[Asytra 1]

SO. Where is the 100% fiction? The thing that makes this sexist is that this is an argument about whether female soldiers who ARE there should be represented in the game. And those who are arguing against it keep conflating that, with talking about why women aren't suited to frontline service. THAT'S why this is being sexist.

I will just rest my case here as I feel that further 'argument' on this issue is not achieving much beyond chewing up server space.

I hope that the Developers will acknowledge the fact that women are on the frontlines in current combat, and reflect this reality in the game.

QFT.

That's precisely why they should be included, and why the poll here as well as the majority of posts after the polls closed have voice support for playable female soldiers. It's just more realistic and more importantly, it's a feature the majority of the playerbase wants to see. There's no need to debate about whether or not women should be in combat. We are in combat roles.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Asytra

[r3volution 0]

Um, I never stated that you didn't want female characters in the game. So I don't know where you got that from. I just said it was sexist to bring the argument of 'whether women should be in the infantry' to a thread about 'whether female soldiers should be in ARMA to reflect the real world'. Also can you quit with the constant personal insults, it gets quite boring.

[PN11A 2]

Um, I never stated that you didn't want female characters in the game. So I don't know where you got that from. I just said it was sexist to bring the argument of 'whether women should be in the infantry' to a thread about 'whether female soldiers should be in ARMA to reflect the real world'. Also can you quit with the constant personal insults, it gets quite boring.

How exactly is it sexist to argue this? When you play arma what role are you playing?

Edited March 17, 2013 by PN11A

[r3volution 0]

PN11A I do appreciate the civility. I see it as being sexist because whatever your feelings and opinions may be and despite whatever facts you use to support them, a significant number of defence forces worldwide have women serving who are exposed to combat. They are already there and to not have Arma represent that detracts from the realism of the game. I don't honestly care if it's only a 1 in 10 ratio, or even less. But they should be represented as the combatants they are.

In Arma I primarily make and edit missions. I like to play a wide variety of roles through a wide variety of scenarios. Even if you ignore women in straight out infantry combat, what about defending a base where there would be plenty of support units and thus there should be female soldiers present? Or an ambushed logistics convoy. The fact is that Arma encompasses a wide range of scenarios outside of straight-up conventional infantry combat and so it doesn't make sense to not have female combatants given their presence in the real world.

[PN11A 2]

I understand your reasons for wanting woman in Arma, many of us have said we have no issue with woman being in Arma. Its however is not sexist to argue if woman are allowed in combat roles or not. Yes woman are exposed to combat, everyone no matter what job are exposed to combat. A vast majority of the countries do not allow woman in the primary combat roles and Special Operations Forces. The facts I posted where displaying the reasons why they have not been allowed and why its an on going debate. As it relates to this game it does not really matter but if your goal is addition of woman for realism it is not accurate to say that they are in the roles we primarily play.

[scrim 1]

Um, I never stated that you didn't want female characters in the game. So I don't know where you got that from. I just said it was sexist to bring the argument of 'whether women should be in the infantry' to a thread about 'whether female soldiers should be in ARMA to reflect the real world'. Also can you quit with the constant personal insults, it gets quite boring.

So why do you keep arguing for having women in the game, and call us sexist? Why would you when debating keep arguing for something that the opposing side has explicitly said they do not oppose? And you are the last one who should complain about personal insults, as your constant response to me, PN11A and several others, when we present you with sources of a scientific, medical nature, is to call us sexists.

Furthermore, as has previously been pointed out to you, there is a considerable difference between being exposed to combat, and being in combat jobs like the infantry, tanks and artillery. The latter aren't only combat since real life isn't CoD, but very demanding physical labour, for long periods of time, and much more frequently than other branches, it involves close quarter combat, where hand-to-hand fighting is a very real risk. Someone who due to their gender possesses 50% less muscle mass (which is just one of the many hard labour related fields where women lack very much compared to men) is doomed to get killed 10/10 times in the latter sort of combat, and to never be able to pull their own weight in the rest of the time.

[r3volution 0]

All I was attempting to say is that those arguments are for another thread. If you wish to create a thread on Women in the Infantry and have that debate there, that's fine (I still feel that it's a debate dominated by sexism, but that's for another day and not for here). But to say it's ok to have women in the game, but at the same time then say try to argue that women shouldn't be in the infantry anyway, THAT is sexist. Just saying that you think women should be in the game would be fine. But bringing those other arguments here, when it's just about whether women should be in the game, that's sexist.

[Guest]

Real life or Arma, woman have no place on the front line. That is not sexist, it is just fact.

But hey, if you fancy sending your daughter off to infantry training, knowing she is going to get treated how no woman should be treated, pushed past her limits and told that she is an ugly, worthless piece of sh*t, and then if she does manage to tough it out, get sent off to Afghanistan where she will be expected to kill people and live in conditions where she has to crap in ditch, not shower for 4 months, and live under nourished and in constant danger....

Apart from the obvious reasons, there are infinitely more why it is impractical, stupid, and darn right ridiculous for woman to be front line soldiers.

I have NO issues with woman whatsoever, I am not sexist. There are plenty of women in the armed forces, they have their own roles and they do them well. They have a place. Sometimes women get attached to infantry units on patrols and in combat scenarios. That is fine, they are needed sometimes, maybe to help talk with local females, maybe to make the patrol seem less aggressive. Many more reasons also.

But woman should not be tasked as infantry fighting soldiers. They certainly should not be sent through full scale male infantry training.

Any woman, or man, who claims it's "equal rights" that a woman should be allowed to fight as infantry, do you even know what you are arguing for? You think it's not *FAIR* that woman aren't allowed to go and get sent off to kill people, be killed, and lose limbs and live in the middle of a war? Are you so delusional that you think it is not fair?

Sometimes I think people argue equal rights just for the sake of it.

In Arma you do not need women as Arma is a combat sim and has no non combat roles. So no, we don't need females. Let modders do that if they wish.

[derk yall 0]

Except that there are women soldier in combat roles (including infantry) in several militaries including the NATO ones...

And once again, ArmA have plenty of non combat roles. Drivers, pilots, if you remember the ship technicians in ArmA 2 for examples. And that is not including the resistance faction which is not bound by any restrictions or "is it right/wrong?" dilema.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Derk Yall

[scrim 1]

All I was attempting to say is that those arguments are for another thread. If you wish to create a thread on Women in the Infantry and have that debate there, that's fine (I still feel that it's a debate dominated by sexism, but that's for another day and not for here). But to say it's ok to have women in the game, but at the same time then say try to argue that women shouldn't be in the infantry anyway, THAT is sexist. Just saying that you think women should be in the game would be fine. But bringing those other arguments here, when it's just about whether women should be in the game, that's sexist.

Which is why you wrote things along the lines of "most NATO countries do it, so it works very well"?

And why is it sexist to argue that women should be in the game, but not in real life combat jobs? By that logic, I'm sexist right now, but if I say "nah, let's keep all female characters in Arma as walking vegetables that can't hold a weapon or even drive a car", then I suppose I wouldn't be, right?

And just to reiterate, when you do it yourself, you can't act high and mighty saying "that's off topic", in this case about wether or not women should be allowed in combat jobs IRL, which is something you've been arguing for in this thread, at least up until you were called on a number of lies and BS, and presented with facts that you wasted no time in ignoring.

[dmarkwick 261]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7223/7173302227_2aaa2fa98f_z.jpg (213 kB)

[r3volution 0]

Nailed it. Can't be bothered anymore. This is just circular to the point of the ridiculous.

[rye1 21]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7223/7173302227_2aaa2fa98f_z.jpg (213 kB)

128 times and I'm dizzy.

[kocrachon 2]

From a modder point of view, no, because thats more than twice the work added just to make things such as armor and guns size up and match. Unless the women are just mens bodies with female faces attached.

[Silent_Thunder 1]

From a modder point of view, no, because thats more than twice the work added just to make things such as armor and guns size up and match. Unless the women are just mens bodies with female faces attached.

IIRC there were some mods for ArmA 2 that did just that, and they honestly didn't look that bad either. Suppose its because ArmA doesn't go for the whole "Soldiers must be manly slabs of beef" that other games seem hell bent on.