Do you want Laaagdoll Physics in ArmA 3?

[walker 0]

Hi all

IMHO Ragdoll is a waste of CPU and programming time that:

1) Is just Eye Candy and adds zero to game play.

2) In most implementations the physics is Hollywood not realism

3) Lags MP. (if it can be enacted in it at all)

4) Is a waste of BIS programming time. (which is a finite resource)

Hollywood Physics pretending to be real physics

Most Laaagdoll physics is about the Hollywood visions people have of what happens when people get shot.

Where they get "Blown away" Fact is that even when shot by a fifty caliber all that happens is that the person shot falls to the ground, they are not jerked around like you see on TV or Films or games like COD.

In point of fact the other thread about this so far in the ArmA 3 forum is all about how much pointless and unrealistic gore they can get!

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=119246

The Laaagdoll physics you see in games does not happen here in reality. So why would we want to waste CPU and bandwidth on unrealistic physics. A shot that would move a body like in the Hollywood movies or unrealistic games like Battle Field would in reality just tear a chunk of the body and the body would just fall to the ground in much same way as it does in ArmA.

This flying bodies Laaagdoll rubbish just never happens in reality even point blank with a fifty caliber. Standard weapons right up to Uber sniper rifles do not kick a body about.

QCzD5uhSViY

Bodies fall when shot dead.

That is all.

Real Physics as in Newton's Third Law of Motion trumps the Hollywood crap of Laaagdoll physics.

Except for wounding where they often do not even fall and may not even be aware they were shot.

So the total purpose of Laaagdoll physics is what?

ZERO ZILCH NADA NOTHING NOWT!

Or if you want to split hairs two inches for a suspended body unaffected by friction, or resistive reaction and musculature.

The practicalities

Then we come to the practicalities; Laaagdoll physics has to either be:

Serverside Laaagdoll physics

All done on the server in which case it instantly becomes the highest overhead for bandwidth in network code. In fact for ArmA the player, entity and object bullets bushes, houses, street furniture count would make it impossible; as it would require a bandwidth beyond anything currently available and could never work across more than say one nation as distance and the speed of light would induce such massive lag, and amplifying the ping problems that even the fastest games suffer:

http://royal.pingdom.com/2007/06/01/theoretical-vs-real-world-speed-limit-of-ping/

to an intolerable level.

Consider also that either the whole model is modeled in Laaagdoll or we get anomalies. So this means visually significant parts must be modeled to prevent things like say hands not grasping the objects used. This means every finger has to be modeled.

3 Bytes of data per finger even simplified 4 fingers x 3 data bytes = 12 data bytes plus 4 bytes per thumb rotation for opposability. So 16 bytes just for one hand x 2 for for the normal compliment of two hands is 32 bytes.

Add another 2 bytes per wrist again it is rotation as well as bend. x two hands = 4 bytes totaling 36 bytes and we have not even reached the elbow.

NB Remember there are limitations on the bend and rotation for the CPU/GPU to include in the calculations, but they should not affect bandwidth.

I will forgo the rest, per arm it is about 24 bytes per arm of a simplified, and robotic looking body. 48 in total for two arms

Then we come the face and head neck do we want expression? Without it we can get away with say 10 bytes just get eyes to blink and jaw to open and close nodding putting eye to sight etc

So we are looking at simplified model with 58 Bytes so far another ten for legs and 6 for torso waist and hip.

That is 74 Bytes per entity just on animation we still have to put all the stuff in that ArmA already does like position in geography and the rest.

74 times 32 players a not unusual number of clients in ArmA I play on sever servers with 60 to 100 players and all this data is BI DIRECTIONAL PER CLIENT so double it.

And it all has to be pushed down the pipe for ever single client for every entity they see! In ArmA where there can be thousands of entities and we have not considered all the clutter objects houses etc etc.

If we include objects and do full vectors per object that is 3 Bytes per object part x tens of thousands...

You can just about do it on the mother board of a top of the range gaming PC for a game like Crysis but pumping it round the Internet to to anything from 32 to 100 plus clients?

Dream on.

So then you go for Client side physics.

Where each client does the physics on their own CPU, miss-matched CPUs, mother boards various amounts of RAM different graphic cards make it a horror for them to try to come up with the same calculation for each event.

Even if you can get them to do so, we then have to deal with fundamental part of physics, Chaos theory, which means that for complex physics minute changes in events amplify, in something you may have heard of called the butterfly effect.

And since each client is apart and separately calculating everything these errors build up, any one who has played a game has experienced it, it is called desync and every byte of data that can vary between clients amplifies it.

BIS actually use a simplified client side physics!

And you have all experienced what desync does. As the errors build you see warping, then desync lag as the server tries to correct the error then a red chain and connection failed. And that is with about 10 Bytes per entity.

But what about the complication of Laaagdoll physics? Remember those 74 Bytes for a simplified robotic entity model? Now you have to match them for each entity across every client! Each factor, object and entity, multiplied by each client, quickly becomes a exponential curve of errors. It is a huge extra load. As the sanity of the badly designed Laaagdoll physics model very quickly degenerates to anarchy. And in reality as in real world physics, the kind that includes chaos theory and the butterfly effect or more correctly, sensitive dependence on initial conditions, impossible to make work.

Game Over. The End. Walker

[froggyluv 2136]

Theres already a ragdoll thread right below you Walker :rolleyes:

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Walker, I have to ask: what's your point? This just doesn't seem very constructive.

Edit: Oh, it's a poll. Didn't see that part.

Still, the poll options seem pointless...

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

QQ, walker. That is all.

You've spent more time writing essays on different topics, than actually trying to immerse yourself in the world of ArmA, and let me tell you - immersion is one GBU away from being shattered.

[Cyteless 10]

Ragdoll physics doesn't need to have people flying all over the place for it to be useful. There's some real immersion breakers in Arma 2, such as shooting an enemy on top of a tower or building. During his death throes, he happens to snag his foot on the edge of the building, thus suspending him in mid-air for all to see.

In the same situation with ragdoll physics employed, the body would either slump to the floor on top of the building, or fall off completely.

I agree that this feature being implemented has certainly discomforted many people, but BIS are the game developers here. It's their pay cheque that's at risk, so they're definitely going to do the best they can to make sure such a feature is as optimised as much as possible.

At this stage, where we have only found out about the game, have only seen screenshots and read a couple of features, I think it's more than too early to jump into the zealous, anti-feature crusade.

[walker 0]

Theres already a ragdoll thread right below you Walker :rolleyes:

Hi froggyluv

It is a slanted poll With not option to say it dont work. :j:

Kind Regards walker

[hund 0]

Well, it does look a little like ragdoll on that screenshot with the russian, so you might just be in luck walker. I hope you get your ragdoll effects, doesn't matter either way to me.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Hi froggyluv

It is a slanted poll With not option to say it dont work. :j:

Kind Regards walker

Define yours then,

No I understand that it cannot be sychronised in MP

You realise that is a lie? Server would only track a single body part, like the torso, client renders the rest when in view.

So then you go for Client side physics.

Where each client does the physics on their own CPU, miss-matched CPUs, mother boards various amounts of RAM different graphic cards make it a horror for them to try to come up with the same calculation for each event.

What is CPU doing when you're playing Warfare on a dedicated server? Rendering those Normal shadows, eh? No wonder I could max out ArmA in 1080p on a 2 core Phenom II with a 4890 ATi GPU present.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Flash Thunder 10]

No I want Bullet Physics, I was surprised to see Physx instead.

[Daniel 0]

Bodies fall when shot dead.

Very true. What they don't do is hang 15ft above the ground suspended only by their toes at 90 degrees to their guard tower, nor do they levitate when the building around them collapses.

[Mr. Charles 22]

Or they lie in an angle into the air.

Ragdoll was needed at some point and i hope it is implemented good and we dont see flying bodies.

[Kelley13 10]

Ragdoll physics add a level of satisfaction when you triger a bomb near enemies and they go flying, pop a guy in the head with a 50 cal and does a cartwheel, or send a corpse flying into a wall and splatering it wih blood after shooting him in the torso with a twelve gauge. it does not have to be as fine tuned as source.

---------- Post added at 06:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 PM ----------

dismemberment, disimbolment, and decapitaion would be a good substitute though. ;)

[Cyteless 10]

We'd also be able to have less of an issue with bodies clipping through other objects, since the bodies won't be as static.

[Flyweight 10]

Completely untrue, ragdoll physics adds to the game in immeasurable ways

Observe the additional realism that ragdoll adds to the game - I've extracted what you need to see.

Notice that just by the visual effect of the ragdoll physics we can instantly ascertain that Corporal Humor here, while in a full sprint, was instantly gunned down, without mercy, by who could only be Ensign W0lle.

Thus, ragdoll adds to the game. it tells a story visually, viscerally.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Flyweight

[dissaifer 10]

Just because it is rag-doll doesn't mean it has to be ridiculous rag-doll where the guy goes flying across the screen when he is dead or shot even. You can be shot and fall down and not die.

Plus this removes the "forced" dead animation, so situations where the guy is in the car - gets shot, dies, gets out of the car and falls down dead is solved by this.

[gossamersolid 155]

Or they lie in an angle into the air.

Ragdoll was needed at some point and i hope it is implemented good and we dont see flying bodies.

Well if you shoot an HE shell near the feet of a soldier, I expect to see some air time.

[ben_s 11]

Physics doesn't just apply to ragdoll deaths.

There's alot more gameplay PhysX could add to. Like addition to destruction, vehicle physics, easier/more realistic navigation of terrain, smoother interaction with objects in the gameworld (like Grenades, explosives?)

And obviously, there's alot of variety in explosions, deaths and other 'features' BIS may add. But the ragdoll itself, what's so bad about it? It adds that variety in the deaths. I mean seriously - Shooting someone in ArmA was never really "satisifying", they didn't keel over, they were just stiff and had no movement about them. Anything to improve the actual shooting aspect is good in my book.

And, I put my trust in BIS. I know that they're experienced much more than any of us, they've built their engine from the ground up over the last decade. They know what it can do, what it can't and what's good for it. I do not expect BIS to add something such as a physics engine, that wont bring anything except bad framerates/forms of lag.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Ben_S

[Flash Thunder 10]

Well if you shoot an HE shell near the feet of a soldier, I expect to see some air time.

LOL or call in a hellfire missile or something.

Now when arma 3 comes out I want to see a new version of Parachute cows and suicidal cow! :p

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

http://www.sixconcepts.com/media/ragdoll.png

Notice that just by the visual effect of the ragdoll physics we can instantly ascertain that Corporal Humor here, while in a full sprint, was instantly gunned down, without mercy, by who could only be Ensign W0lle.

Thus, ragdoll adds to the game. it tells a story visually, viscerally.

Sarcasm aside, when you've spent enough time in this new system, you'd be able to tell what caliber, and from where, at what angle hit this operative. :D

[Uziyahu--IDF 0]

Ragdoll physics isn't a problem in multiplayer. I've played tons of tac-shooters with ragdoll physics in MP and it has never broken gameplay. Havok is especially good, but PhysX would probably work just as well.

[wobbleyheadedbob 10]

Well if you shoot an HE shell near the feet of a soldier, I expect to see some air time.

Well you shouldn't, if an HE shell landed be near a fella's feet you'd see a poof of dust, a pinkish mist where the soldier used to be, followed by a light shower of gravel and burger patty.

PEOPLE ARE NOT HELD TOGETHER BY TITANIUM-ALLOY-BUNGEE-CORD!

We are steak with a pulse!

But I agree with some of Walker's comments, hollywood style ragdoll physics has no place in Arma BUT, seeing a chopper get swung around and explode cos an inch of its rotor clipped a %&*$ing leaf is not very immersive!

Watching a soldier keel over in a bullet-death animation as a tank runs over him at full kilter... is not very immersive!

Flying a Harrier at 500 km/h into a tree only to have it stop dead on the spot... is not very immersive!

The list goes on and on. There are a lot of ways to simulate physics in multiplayer games, not many of them are comparible to Arma 2 because there is no game currently on the market that can simulate the scale of arma 2, but that doesn't mean BI won't try and nor should the community try and stop them.

BI push boundaries, its what they do. Arma 2 should have at least extended things on this front but they chose to wait in favour of other extension to their engine, now that they're finally attempting it you wanna get all ancy? Thats a bit dumb.

[dunedain 48]

Oh here we go again ... Whenever I see a huge post full of crap I can't help but think about you walker.. :butbut:

Edited May 19, 2011 by dunedain

[froggyluv 2136]

I've played tons of tac-shooters with ragdoll physics in MP and it has never broken gameplay. Havok is especially good, but PhysX would probably work just as well.

Oh no you didn't!!! :butbut:

Get ready for some intergalactically crazy maths about how you have done the impossible ;)

Edit: Interesting poll results.

[wobbleyheadedbob 10]

Ragdoll physics isn't a problem in multiplayer. I've played tons of tac-shooters with ragdoll physics in MP and it has never broken gameplay. Havok is especially good, but PhysX would probably work just as well.

Agreed!

Havok was used for the Source engine, while that not really comparible to Arma, I think it may have been used in "World in Conflict" which... well if you were to scale up the models or just zoom in to the battlefield CAN be compared to arma. They handled physics client side evident by the fact that you can choose realism levels in your setting which impact your local performance.

However, the phyiscs are used on a base level for ballistics.

Another game that uses VERY accurate physics on a wholesale level is the "Men of War" series. Another strategy game which if you havent played... GET IT!!! It is the "Arma" of the RTS world(if I may make so bold a statement).

There's no greater pleasure than having your sniper take out the front wheel of a german motorbike with sidecar going full speed and watch it cartwheel forward throwing the passenger.

Or perhaps watching your AT round richochet off a german Panzer only to slam into a house that comes tumbling over onto it. (it's the little things that amuse me).

[MulleDK19 21]

*endless stream of crap*

And since when has the word "ragdoll" ever implied being blown away when shot?

In fact, ragdolls do exactly what you describe happens when you get shot. They drop.

That most companies makes them fly all over the place when they get knifed, is their mistake.

Ragdolls are not the simulation of getting blown away. Just because the body doesn't need to be blown back, doesn't make ragdolls void.

Ragdolls still simulate a dead body, collapsing, and acting like a dead body.

And you're missing one thing where "Blown Away" isn't actually busted. Explosions and implosions. Depending on the magnitude, a human body WILL be thrown.

Ragdolls adds an insane amount of immersion to a game. Especially a warfare simulator like ARMA.

Also, you have no clue on networking.