Stealth Kills?

[liquidpinky 11]

Operative;1949435']Are we talking about ARMA2 or speculating and discussing about ARMA3?

ARMA2 assumes the player character is not that good' date=' simple that. It's not the player fault, of course, it's just part of the roleplaying, but, as BIS claims, it's a simulation, and in RL to make hits with a pistol is not that hard.

When Kieran spoke about using the knife instead of the pistol, I thought he was talking about RL, as I suppose ARMA3 is trying to simulate, in some way, the real life thing. Then I said that, because in real life using a pistol is safer than going for the knife (as, I suppose, if you are going to use the knife to kill stealthly an enemy you are already behind him, so shoting him is not that much of an issue).[/quote']

It isn't the difficulty part, it is the effectiveness of a silenced/suppressed pistol at range that comes into doubt.

Like I mention a page or two back the Welrod, being probably the most silent of them has a recommended range of no further than 24 yds.

And you still can't be guaranteed of your intended victim not crying out when shot. Same with a silenced rifle.

A hand over the mouth while ripping his throat out with a knife on the other hand pretty much can.

[Blackfox34 14]

Yo i'm a beast with that makarov.

I can say with confidence that pretty much any ARMA 2 RPG player is profecient in pistol use as most games revolve around the makarov and m9 being the cheapest weapons.

In most cases a knife is more accurate than a pistol and a pistol isn't always safer.

You control where the knife is going and there is more room for error with knife as you can stab and drag down opening up a larger wound. A pistol has smaller entry point and there are variables that can affect your shot.

As said before, silenced pistols aren't really silent and if you miss there are consequences. A knife to the throat has less room for error, thats if you are successful at approaching undetected.

[celery 8]

Operative;1949435']ARMA2 assumes the player character is not that good' date=' simple that.[/quote']

How do you explain him being accurate with all other weapons, including the Glock 17, revolver and Micro Uzi which are also handguns?

[-GR-Operative 10]

How do you explain him being accurate with all other weapons, including the Glock 17, revolver and Micro Uzi which are also handguns?

Training? But what I'm talking is that the weapon is not itself incapable. It can still kill in a reasonable medium distance.

[celery 8]

Operative;1949679']Training? But what I'm talking is that the weapon is not itself incapable. It can still kill in a reasonable medium distance.

So how does a guy who's a sniper with a revolver or a Micro Uzi suddenly fail with M9 or M1911? Are you telling me that no man in the United States military or all of Russia, Chernarus and Takistan knows how to handle those pistols? Because regardless of your character, he WILL snipe with the Micro Uzi and screw up every shot with the M9.

[Kieran 11]

Its not just about hitting the target from medium/long distance with the pistol

that fact is when you do actually hit the target, a massive chance of the player not being fately wounded,

the other player with the assult rifle, or subauto with tear into you in to time

[rye1 21]

Pistol calibres do not do a lot of damage, subsonic ammo even running at rifle calibres will not do much damage.

"For 99% of uses, subsonic rifle rounds are STUPID. Subsonic rifle loads are a very niche item. Because they are traveling at typical service handgun caliber velocities, there are minimal stretch effects and uncomplicated soft tissue wounds are very similar to those caused by non-expanding handgun projectiles. Some subsonic loads do indeed use very long, heavy, pointed rifle projectiles (like the .30 cal 220 gr SMK OTM) that may, depending on shot line and tissue thickness, yaw over while traversing through the body. If this occurs, the permanent crush cavity can be a bit larger during maximum yaw than when the projectile is point or base forward. In any event, subsonic rifle projectile wounds are substantially less severe than wounds caused by normal rifle loads." Dr Gary K. Roberts.

Heard of the 21 foot rule? Taught to L.E. and some military units for good reason - CQB can mean going to work with unconventional weaponary. There is so many places a bad guy can hide, pop out from and attack from - in small rooms in Iraq this can be as close as 1-5m. And a bad guy can easily cover a good amount of space between the time you pull out your pistol, clear a jam. Knives are good for this reason; so easy to get out (no holster), just pull and go. If it was to be added - the ease of drawing should be implemented.

Good doco on close combat:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwkQvoZU_gU.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Rye

[-GR-Operative 10]

Heard of the 21 foot rule? Taught to L.E. and some military units for good reason - CQB can mean going to work with unconventional weaponary. There is so many places a bad guy can hide, pop out from and attack from - in small rooms in Iraq this can be as close as 1-5m. And a bad guy can easily cover a good amount of space between the time you pull out your pistol, clear a jam. Knives are good for this reason; so easy to get out (no holster), just pull and go. If it was to be added - the ease of drawing should be implemented.

So people go to places where close combat is going to possibly happen (all possibilities are taken on account when you are deployed) with their main weapon (possibly rifle/carbine) lowered? And then expect to be able to pull a knife and stab someone faster than him can pull the trigger? The knife is for sure a SHTF option, but really, I would not expect to keep alive if my rifle jammed when an enemy is pointing a gun at me from 10 meters away.

[Guest]

Knives in Arma 3 is a stupid idea, unless they decide to add some very in depth Bear Grylls survival features. Knives are tools for the most part, cut open a can, make a hole in a tent, cut some rope, chop some wood...

Special forces are not a bunch of chav's running around with shanks trying to stab everyone up. If you look at the SAS killing house, which they have practiced counter terrorist tactics many thousands of times, I don't believe you will see them flash a room and then run in and stab the terrorist in the face.

Yes, no doubt you could find yourself in a situation where you need to use your knife, especially if you are un-armed. Maybe just to take down 1 guy who is all alone. And then you have the issue, in real life, how do you take someone out "silently".

Do you really think he will be silent if you slit his throat or stab him in the heart? What about his body hitting the floor? And when you steal his lovely AK-47, what will you do for stealth then?

It is un-practical and un-realistic. Given the fact you will be on an enormous island, why on earth would you go to all the trouble of invading an enemy base and doing "stealth kills", when you could get into a village, maybe seek help, or steal a weapon?

Knives are an important piece of equipment for all soldiers in the world, but even for SAS, if the mission gets so badly fucked up that all your team mates are dead and all you have is a knife, you are going to end up dead or captured.

[dysta 10]

Knives in Arma 3 is a stupid idea, unless they decide to add some very in depth Bear Grylls survival features. Knives are tools for the most part, cut open a can, make a hole in a tent, cut some rope, chop some wood...

Special forces are not a bunch of chav's running around with shanks trying to stab everyone up. If you look at the SAS killing house, which they have practiced counter terrorist tactics many thousands of times, I don't believe you will see them flash a room and then run in and stab the terrorist in the face.

Yes, no doubt you could find yourself in a situation where you need to use your knife, especially if you are un-armed. Maybe just to take down 1 guy who is all alone. And then you have the issue, in real life, how do you take someone out "silently".

Do you really think he will be silent if you slit his throat or stab him in the heart? What about his body hitting the floor? And when you steal his lovely AK-47, what will you do for stealth then?

It is un-practical and un-realistic. Given the fact you will be on an enormous island, why on earth would you go to all the trouble of invading an enemy base and doing "stealth kills", when you could get into a village, maybe seek help, or steal a weapon?

Knives are an important piece of equipment for all soldiers in the world, but even for SAS, if the mission gets so badly fucked up that all your team mates are dead and all you have is a knife, you are going to end up dead or captured.

Oh yeah, Richie was came back to talk on one of the hot topic in ARMA 3 forum.

You know what, why I have to brought a knife for killing someone quietly in "very danger close" distance, even from behind. That because it's a weapon made for cutting and killing, as well as the gun with silencer or a crossbow for shooting and killing too. It's not just a method from wide variety to kill, but also FOR A PURPOSE.

For a pure assassination, knife got a win, because it actually can kill. But for the survivability, please don't mix it up with stealth and survival I must say, is would be a deep trouble when get a first blood from the men and tend to escape.

If stealth kill is a pure purpose, you are unable to judge when a blade just stab behind you because you are dead. However, if you're seeing a buddy get stabbed and killed, that would be another case.

[rye1 21]

Operative;1951401']So people go to places where close combat is going to possibly happen (all possibilities are taken on account when you are deployed) with their main weapon (possibly rifle/carbine) lowered? And then expect to be able to pull a knife and stab someone faster than him can pull the trigger? The knife is for sure a SHTF option' date=' but really, I would not expect to keep alive if my rifle jammed when an enemy is pointing a gun at me from 10 meters away.[/quote']

I didn't mention being against an enemy with a small arm. And if you were then you would use your sidearm; if that jammed or whatever, then what? Not a lot you can do - it may be a final resort if the enemy is coming towards you or too close; NO ONE MENTIONED 10M. If they were that far you could clear it and get to work. We have common sense here, we're not saying it's used for every situation.

---------- Post added at 02:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:13 PM ----------

Knives in Arma 3 is a stupid idea, unless they decide to add some very in depth Bear Grylls survival features. Knives are tools for the most part, cut open a can, make a hole in a tent, cut some rope, chop some wood...

Special forces are not a bunch of chav's running around with shanks trying to stab everyone up. If you look at the SAS killing house, which they have practiced counter terrorist tactics many thousands of times, I don't believe you will see them flash a room and then run in and stab the terrorist in the face.

Yes, no doubt you could find yourself in a situation where you need to use your knife, especially if you are un-armed. Maybe just to take down 1 guy who is all alone. And then you have the issue, in real life, how do you take someone out "silently".

Do you really think he will be silent if you slit his throat or stab him in the heart? What about his body hitting the floor? And when you steal his lovely AK-47, what will you do for stealth then?

It is un-practical and un-realistic. Given the fact you will be on an enormous island, why on earth would you go to all the trouble of invading an enemy base and doing "stealth kills", when you could get into a village, maybe seek help, or steal a weapon?

Knives are an important piece of equipment for all soldiers in the world, but even for SAS, if the mission gets so badly fucked up that all your team mates are dead and all you have is a knife, you are going to end up dead or captured.

Knives are not only a survival and utility weapon but they can be used as a weapon of war. No one mentioned counter-terrorist work and using knives; it's rare to use one though they do have them on their person when they do this type of role.

You control them with the support hand; cover the mouth, cut the jugular and I don't think you would be able to do much either. Same with any move for the rear; you control them. You can thrust it into any body cavity; this includes the brain group so you wouldn't be screaming for help then.

It's good for mission makers, for adding an extra aspect to the vanilla game we have not seen. Knives or bayonets, they don't have to go in though they would be nice to see - stealth scripts and features would be brilliant and that's what we want before anything.

[Guest]

Sorry if anything I say sounds overly aggressive or anything. I do agree a knife could be useful. all be it very rarely, but it is not something that I would see fitting into Arma 3.

Although the new Medal Of Honour game fits into the bunny rabbit hyper fast paced style of game, there was one moment in the campaign where I recall "needing" to use your knife. You had no weapon and had to take out a guard standing in front of a small cave.

I can't remember exactly how you killed him, but it seemed realistic I think, I believe he covered the insurgents mouth and then stabbed him sideways through the neck? Anyway, it was the only time in the campaign where you had to use the knife, and if implemented similar in Arma 3, where you can only use it when it is the only way, it could be good.

Richie.

[rye1 21]

Sorry if anything I say sounds overly aggressive or anything. I do agree a knife could be useful. all be it very rarely, but it is not something that I would see fitting into Arma 3.

Not at all aggressive. I agree that it is very rarely used. And I'd rather see real stealth ability within the game before anything else.

If the AI could be tweaked for this then it would open Arma up a little bit more evenly.

Yes you try get it from the direct left of the neck or direct right depending on which hand you use - all the way over. Sever the jugular - or even the wind pipe if it's deep enough. The wind pipe takes about the force of crushing an egg to break.

If you do not want to do this - you can always sever the spinal cord, medulla oblongata etc. It doesn't always have to relate to Rambo type gameplay; I'd like to see it in but rarely used and not overkill, one slash killing machine like COD. This would take a while to get right in-game so by all means this is just a discussion, the real thing information BIS should take from it is it would be better if the AI were stealth friendly in circumstances when you really shouldn't be spotted or found out.

---------- Post added at 03:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 PM ----------

Was it this? I hate games where it is like your knife is automatically in your other, supporting hand! :D It would be better to take it out (like a small anim like pistol but slightly quicker) and actually hit a vital area to take them down - if not it would take multiple and it sure wouldn't be stealthy if it got loud.

If the knife anim was slightly quicker than pistol, you'd consider using it but decide on the stop. If the enemy was aware or a good chance of that then you'd just use your pistol.

[logandog1240 10]

stealth kills are EXTREMELY realistic, if you havent noticed even suppressed weapons are EXTREMELY loud if there is not any background noise, if you dont believe me ask your local gun enthusiest to fire one close to your eye, now that u have a good side left, ill finish my rant, silenced guns arent like in Cod where u just hear a small pop and wind blow. if some1 is standing in front of a door with 30 other people looking the other way u dont want to shoot even a silenced weapon

[CarlGustaffa 4]

You'd take on 30 guys with a knife? For me it's just not worth wasting time on. In a silenced night, even your footsteps and gear sounds will give you away. What if I use a soundmod whose side effect is making those sounds even more pronounced? Then in your eyes I would be cheating, and start bitching about that.

[BlackAlpha 10]

Kind of funny how many people refer to kniving someone in the back as stealth kills. I'm no military expert and I've never been in the army, but from the things I've read and seen, I've gathered that knives are not reliable stealth kill weapons because 3 things can go horribly wrong:

1. The approach to the target. Many things can go wrong here. Someone could see you sneaking up on your target. Someone could hear you, especially when you are carrying military gear. You could accidentally step on a loud surface or a wooden twig or something else. Your target walks away before you reach him, leaving you in a bad position. Your target could suddenly turn around and shoot you.

2. The kill. Same thing here, many things can go wrong. You stab, but your target lives after the first stab and cries out for help. Even if you are able to quickly kill your target, he will most likely make some noise before going unconscious, no matter how low this noise may be, his companions could hear it and come after you. You stab but miss, or even if you hit, in the ensuing struggle, the target overmasters you. You stab, but somebody else sees you and shoots you. You stab the target, you think he's unconscious/dead, but moments later he cries out for help.

3. The retreat. Same story. You've killed your target, but it turns out that now you are standing in plain sight, so the others shoot you. You try to get away but they hear you or see you and shoot you. You accidentally make a noise, alerting the others. You try to hide the body, but the others see you and shoot you. You successfully retreat, but the others see the body, raise the alarm, find you and shoot you. You thought the target is unconscious/dead, but as you walk away he shoots you in the back.

Knife kills are stealthy? There's so much shooting involved, by the enemy, at you.

Note that everytime you get shot at or even if you only alert the enemy, this usually means that you are compromised; enemies will know where you are, you are royally screwed and you have to get the hell out of there. So, the question you have to ask yourself: "Is kniving someone worth it? Is it worth the high risk? Or should I use my silenced weapon to negate all the risks that come with kniving someone? Or maybe it's easier to simply avoid the enemy?"

Also, silencers might be loud, but so is kniving someone. Like I said before, when you sneak up, there's a good chance you will make noise. The closer you get, the more chance there is the enemy will hear you, and the more chance that things will go wrong. When you use the knife on the other person, your own body movement makes noise, and especially your gear that you are carrying. Then there's of course the target's body movement and gear, especially if he manages to struggle and/or fall to the ground. And especially, if he cries out in pain in the process of getting knived.

I'm pretty certain that 99% of the soldiers will tell you that the knife is a tool. Only when all hell has broken loose, when you have no weapons, no ammo, when you can't run from your enemy and the situation is extremely desperate, only then is the knife a weapon. And the one percent will probably tell you that it's a weapon, but only to be used in rare situations.

So, a knife kill could be pulled of successfully and without much risk in rare situations. Is it worth implementing knives into ArmA3 for those rare situations? Not to me. I'd say, leave the knives to COD and the movies, and Rambo. :p

[rangerpl 13]

Knives in Arma 3 is a stupid idea, unless they decide to add some very in depth Bear Grylls survival features

I think the ability to drink piss is something that's been missing from the ArmA series.

[dmarkwick 261]

I think the ability to drink piss is something that's been missing from the ArmA series.

Being somewhat of an uber-realist, I drink piss during my longer ArmA sessions.

[Baff1 0]

Pistol calibres do not do a lot of damage, subsonic ammo even running at rifle calibres will not do much damage.

"For 99% of uses, subsonic rifle rounds are STUPID. Subsonic rifle loads are a very niche item. Because they are traveling at typical service handgun caliber velocities, there are minimal stretch effects and uncomplicated soft tissue wounds are very similar to those caused by non-expanding handgun projectiles. Some subsonic loads do indeed use very long, heavy, pointed rifle projectiles (like the .30 cal 220 gr SMK OTM) that may, depending on shot line and tissue thickness, yaw over while traversing through the body. If this occurs, the permanent crush cavity can be a bit larger during maximum yaw than when the projectile is point or base forward. In any event, subsonic rifle projectile wounds are substantially less severe than wounds caused by normal rifle loads." Dr Gary K. Roberts.

I kill stuff with subsonic rounds daily.

No need to overanalyse.

You shoot it, it dies.

If it's large animal and a small calibre just aim for a critical area.

It's travelling a lot slower, so effective bullet drop must be bigger over range.

I honestly can't see the point in not using a silencer if you own one. Except perhaps the extra bulk of it.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Baff1

[cyop 10]

A little stealth mission, as Blackfox34 eludes to, would be OK. And, as he stated, he does not mean running around with a knife, chasing players and trying to stab them. ;)

What mission was that in, I guess in Arma 1, where you had to sabotage some tanks. Man, maybe I was just too stupid (in-game) (even though I am really familiar with such tactics), but I could never get in and out with out being discovered. I finally had to, somewhat, just Rambo through some of the mission. It was absurd! A stealth mission in which there was no real, viable way to be stealthy. (Maybe I should have just kept trying to figure it out. I think I only tried about three times. I was probably just impatient. Hey, it's a game!)

And yes, when things get up close and personal, all bets are off. However, the person initiating the attack does, somewhat, have the advantage.

EDIT: Really, though, knife take-downs are a thing of the past, and even in the past they were, to my knowledge, rare. - Even tunnel rats used a pistol. (Yes, that is a different situation, but they did not go in announcing they were there.)

Edited July 4, 2011 by CyOp

[rye1 21]

EDIT: Really, though, knife take-downs are a thing of the past, and even in the past they were, to my knowledge, rare. - Even tunnel rats used a pistol. (Yes, that is a different situation, but they did not go in announcing they were there.)

CyOp:- Rare, yes. Thing of the past, no and never. It has and will continue to happen; it has happened both in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And Tunnel rats; they literally went down there with just a flashlight, knife, and revolver (normally a .38 rather than a .45 because of the noise and muzzle flash of it). The knife was always a back-up for obvious reasons in such a close environment.

Baff1:- I was answering someone, simply put subsonics will do pistol calibre damage. We're talking human, not animal.

BlackAlpha:- You mention compromise, who would try to use a knife when compromised and has a working pistol or rifle? No one. A few factors must be in place to be successful without compromise, even with compromise to and from target you can still be successful, some factors come down to luck.

Gear we can't change but you would usually try it clean skin to minimise chance, if not then so be it; there has to be another factor fulfilling it before you tried e.g. a heavy and noisy vehicle next to the target. The person screaming wouldn't if a jugular was slashed, neck was broken in the process or any number of instantly debilitating procedures. But with a 'stab' as you put, thrusting it into somebody then of course there would be noise; so ask yourself why you would thrust in a non-compromised situation? You wouldn't.

Your whole basis goes on being compromised and if there were possibilities of being compromised from approach to kill to retreat then you'd find an alternative plan and go with a pistol or silenced rifle or avoid the person to begin with. No one says you have to use X and X in X situation but you just have to use your brain to realise it wouldn't work in some situations.

For it to work in a compromised situation it must be a mixture of luck, in a very close space and done quickly. As I've mentioned before, if you jam at 5m, then what? If you transition and by that time the enemy is already on top of you? These may be real life considerations in all honesty but still a very true arguement;- it all comes down to what if's.

It's the fact we haven't seen it in Arma:- both knives and such a close quarter environment of operating whereby these considerations must be met. I could see an improvement in Arma whereby it may meet these considerations.

[JojoTheSlayer 35]

Being somewhat of an uber-realist, I drink piss during my longer ArmA sessions.

LoL

But I wouldnt mind some kind of "Stealth" modual that would add a Tenchu like system ( A hud icon with a ?, ! or !! icon and % distance to target from you) or something that made sneaking into bases and tweaking the "you killed one" so now everyone on the planet knows you there A2 things that kinda ruin the gaming experience of acting like Solid Snake in the game on lots of missions.

In the Seal Team Six missions, fan missions, it kinda was a 50/50 killing one enemy let most of the other enemies know where you where at and so on regardless of headshots...

[Primarch 10]

You use your knife, I'll shoot you into head with my OICW.

[celery 8]

You use your knife, I'll shoot you into head with my OICW.

What a quality argument. Let's remove pistols from Arma 3 just to make a point.

[Primarch 10]

What a quality argument. Let's remove pistols from Arma 3 just to make a point.

You use your pistol, I'll shoot you into head with my M16 in ArmA 2.