Stealth Kills?

[Goos 0]

I think that is the key for this thread.

"I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE KNIFE KILLS BECAUSE SPECIAL FORCES DO IT BASED ON BOOK I'VE READ/MOVIES I'VE SEEN/THINGS SOLDIERS DID 60 YEARS AGO"

You don't want it we get it now stop making snide comments or try actually adding something constructive. Wether you like it or not it is something that happens and for various reasons if you don't get that then that's your problem.

Also some people touched on a very good point. The way A.I. react is something that needs looked at like how they completely ignore the dead body of a sentry friendly to them when they are on their patrol due to him biting a bullet from a supressed weapon of an infiltration team. Or the fact of if you pick off one member of a group the entire group instantly knows about it no matter how far away they are from him. These kind of points could use some love and attention.

Someone also mentioned dragging or carrying a dead body. I'm pretty sure this can be done now with the battlefield clearance module.

[maturin 12]

The way A.I. react is something that needs looked at like how they completely ignore the dead body of a sentry friendly to them when they are on their patrol due to him biting a bullet from a supressed weapon of an infiltration team.

Putting them in the same group would fix that.

Or the fact of if you pick off one member of a group the entire group instantly knows about it no matter how far away they are from him.

Doesn't happen.

[tacticalnuggets 24]

No reason to not have this as at least a module. Enough said...

Now, BIS having time to implement it is their own motivation.

[Goos 0]

Putting them in the same group would fix that.

But you wouldn't have a large force in one group i.e. lead by the same group leader. At any rate it would be nice for stramlining sake if they just do it off the bat.

Doesn't happen.

No? Used to maybe I'm thinking of arma 1

[arye_r 0]

How about sleeping & waking up states + animations? And eating and smoking and reading and peeing and taking a dump? ;) As funny/ grotesque/ uber-realistic this may sound, these are actually extremely common, real life behaviours that drastically affect the state of alertness/ awareness of a soldier and his ability/the time it takes him to react to a threat. And i think that for a minimum programming effort on the devs' side, those small features would allow us to create many interesting, real life pre-combat situations, especially when talking about stealthy missions. Just use your imagination...

[rye1 21]

I think that is the key for this thread.

"I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE KNIFE KILLS BECAUSE SPECIAL FORCES DO IT BASED ON BOOK I'VE READ/MOVIES I'VE SEEN/THINGS SOLDIERS DID 60 YEARS AGO"

Research the topic yourself before posting.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Arma isn't just modern warfare.....

Thats the #1 argument against having equipable knives

Arma is anything the mod/mission making community wants it to be.

It boggles the mind how many people want to keep the engine from progressing.....

Nobody wants to keep it from progressing, but some of us actually have realistic expectations and understand how things work. BIS has limited resources, and knives should be somewhere after #100 on the list of needed features. More than anything else, the biggest reason to argue against it is because it's a feature that requires a certain complexity, and if BIS doesn't nail it it can actually dilute the experiance and potentially ruin the overall game. And let's face it, we've seen a few instances were BIS hasn't exactly nailed stuff like this. Essentially, it's too much of a risk if you ask me.

[tacticalnuggets 24]

Nobody wants to keep it from progressing, but some of us actually have realistic expectations and understand how things work. BIS has limited resources, and knives should be somewhere after #100 on the list of needed features. More than anything else, the biggest reason to argue against it is because it's a feature that requires a certain complexity, and if BIS doesn't nail it it can actually dilute the experiance and potentially ruin the overall game. And let's face it, we've seen a few instances were BIS hasn't exactly nailed stuff like this. Essentially, it's too much of a risk if you ask me.

Big Dawg, are you apparently just more knowledgeable than the rest of us about arma 3 and the resources BIS has right now?

[dale0404 5]

Call me biased or narrow-minded or whatever but I just don't like the idea of knives in Arma3, I have said this earlier in this thread. To me its too arcadey. Its like pressing the space bar to jump and we all know where that leads...

[Tonmeister 14]

eating and smoking and reading and peeing and taking a dump == stealthy missions. Just use your imagination...

aaaaaah ok

[chicago 13]

Call me biased or narrow-minded or whatever but I just don't like the idea of knives in Arma3, I have said this earlier in this thread. To me its too arcadey. Its like pressing the space bar to jump and we all know where that leads...

It can be the truth but silent fights (for example with a knife) are in real conflicts too. I believe the correct insertion into Arma 3 it necessarily need not lead to the arcade game.

[NoRailgunner 0]

How can you make a "stealth kill" if the guard is close but you have to go over gravel road or underground that makes some noise?

One could even sense that there is something without looking into that direction... What about peripheral vision or knowing the difference between natural/ambient noise and some strange noise that don't fit?

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Big Dawg, are you apparently just more knowledgeable than the rest of us about arma 3 and the resources BIS has right now?

Yes, perhaps I've been around long enough and paid close enough attention to how BIS operates to be in a more knowledgable position. Either way, it has little to do with how knowledgeable I am about ArmA 3 and BI's resources.

It's a concern based on past experiences with BI's and other games. Poorly designed features can be worse than not having said feature.

Anyway, the reason I have for not supporting this idea is because it's not fleshed out enough. After 19 pages there's still no description of what a melee system in ArmA 3 could/should be like, only attempts to justify some melee system. The problem is that some systems could be good, but some others could dilute the gameplay. I think this vagueness is the biggest reason for disagreement. For example, when some people hear "Stealth kills" they automatically think of "press a button to instakill" (thanks to that being how it's done in 95% of the market). I'm pretty sure nobody here wants that, but the ideas are not being clearly communicated enough. Forget trying to justify stealth kills in general, intstead people should describe in detail how ArmA 3 can have usable knives without diluting the gameplay and try to justify that.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Big Dawg KS

[Daniel 0]

Nobody wants to keep it from progressing, but some of us actually have realistic expectations and understand how things work. BIS has limited resources, and knives should be somewhere after #100 on the list of needed features. More than anything else, the biggest reason to argue against it is because it's a feature that requires a certain complexity, and if BIS doesn't nail it it can actually dilute the experiance and potentially ruin the overall game. And let's face it, we've seen a few instances were BIS hasn't exactly nailed stuff like this. Essentially, it's too much of a risk if you ask me.

This kinda sums up my opinion on knives in BIS games.

Even though deep, deep down I think BIS should should add bayonets.

[onlyrazor 11]

Ooooh, and let's add mosquitoes. They mess up your aim and you have to go through a quick time event to swat them off.

REALISM!

[nkenny 1051]

Ooooh, and let's add mosquitoes. They mess up your aim and you have to go through a quick time event to swat them off.

REALISM!

That would be the key combo Left-Shift + P doubletap for permanent flyswatting.

Big Dawg KS has both the long and the short of it.

-k

[chicago 13]

A question is. How to sneak up to a soldier so that he could not see you. Because I think sometimes in Arma the soldiers have their eyes everywhere :)

[rye1 21]

A question is. How to sneak up to a soldier so that he could not see you. Because I think sometimes in Arma the soldiers have their eyes everywhere :)

Exatly, AI scripts need work for this. I hate getting close to an enemy in vanilla and all of a sudden they turn around or sense you.

It needs to have a bunch of checks ticked off like light, noise, terrain, movement, speed, etc. Mentioned in an earlier post but if this was worked on it would be cool to see. Other features are more important but at somepoint it would be nice to see a good stealth/undetected system working fluently.

"How can you make a "stealth kill" if the guard is close but you have to go over gravel road or underground that makes some noise?"

Nothing is 100% silent; stealth does not mean this.

Stealth (countable and uncountable; plural stealths):

(uncountable) the attribute or characteristic of acting in secrecy, or in such a way that the actions are unnoticed or difficult to detect by others.

You would probably run over and take the guard as quickly as possible as opposed to slowly yet carefully moving without upturning any gravel and making a noise. Underground would be an echo; you'd try to prevent this as much as possible. But I really don't know, it depends on the situation; there is no proven technique for this and that but only known ways of operating that should work in most situations. In all seriousness if you could do it another way, you would, but there are situations where you wouldn't as well.

"Ooooh, and let's add mosquitoes. They mess up your aim and you have to go through a quick time event to swat them off.

REALISM!"

Please, no trolling. Research the topic and provide quality feedback. IF you do not agree with it then fine.

"Call me biased or narrow-minded or whatever but I just don't like the idea of knives in Arma3, I have said this earlier in this thread. To me its too arcadey. Its like pressing the space bar to jump and we all know where that leads... "

BIS wouldn't make it arcadey if they were truely going to; don't be so silly lol. If wounding and the relationship to knives were worked on then we'd see a good wounding system; which would fix half of the problems related to. Unlike unrealistic fps' with one hit kills. Then they'd no doubt work on movement and playability with this - stealth and non-stealth; stealth being with animations, quick ways of killing and non-stealth being an all out brawl with the knife to take an opponent down.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

BIS wouldn't make it arcadey if they were truely going to; don't be so silly lol. If wounding and the relationship to knives were worked on then we'd see a good wounding system; which would fix half of the problems related to. Unlike unrealistic fps' with one hit kills. Then they'd no doubt work on movement and playability with this - stealth and non-stealth; stealth being with animations, quick ways of killing and non-stealth being an all out brawl with the knife to take an opponent down.

You say this like it's so trivial. It's quite a significant feature for BIS to get right. It's not that I don't have faith in BIS, but it's a difficult challenge for all developers, as I can't name many games that achieve a good balance between good gameplay and realism when it comes to melee combat in shooters.

[rye1 21]

You say this like it's so trivial. It's quite a significant feature for BIS to get right. It's not that I don't have faith in BIS, but it's a difficult challenge for all developers, as I can't name many games that achieve a good balance between good gameplay and realism when it comes to melee combat in shooters.

Agreed. It either has to be good or not made at all. These are all just ideas as of now but people keep derailing the conversation. I can only offer points from other games or opinions of how to; it's really up to developers and no doubt they could do it properly but it would take a long time with a lot of effort - it might not work the way people want it to and I don't think we'll be seeing it in Arma 3 because of these points and many others.

[dysta 10]

"To assassinate a person with gun, you have 2 seconds to do so, when in range."

"To assassinate a person with a knive, you have 1 second to do so, when you reach his back."

I read the book about "Special Police", how murderer kill a target in shortest time.

[chicago 13]

@Rye: I exactly agree with your opinion.

I know that close kill is very specific fight in the battle. I know an attacker have to use all advantages which it's resulting from a surroundings. As some other noises from surroundings so as guards couldn't hear the attacker.

But I would like to know what the opinion they have BIS developers. How ARMA 3 will be realistic. How much is this possible to implement into the game with realism, of course?

[rye1 21]

No clue but I like the idea. I know BIS can make a 110% better job than other companies; that's why we're not playing other games like this one and I bet they could make something of it. I agree, a BIS developer must have a keen interest for at least trying to make it work, or put down an opinion but it may not be at this moment in time - bet they're busy as hell.

Since the end of trench warfare, most military knives have been primarily designed for utility/tool use (clearing foliage, chopping branches for cover, opening ammunition crates, etc.) rather than for effectiveness in hand-to-hand combat; though they are designed for close combat in mind as well. Bayonets are in quite similar in role; they are still used but not as heavily and they are taught to effectively push the enemy weapon out of the way (get the barrel off line with their body) and then to engage or begin hand-to-hand, knife or bayonet style combat.

Dysta, nice quote. I have another from 'Fight to Win' by Chris Ryan;

"As well as guns, SF soldiers will carry knives. As the very last line of defence in warfare, traditional combat knives are popular in a lot of SF units, especially the Commando Dagger made by Fairbairn-Sykes. Jungle knives are an essential part of any operator's kit. In the Regiment the knife of preference is a hunting knife. Some guys use a Parang knife, a Malaya equivalent of the machete which is great as a survival knife. On the other hand, the Americans prefer the specialised Kukris from Nepal. The Gurkhas also use this bad boy, which is a seriously heavy duty curved blade. With a rubberised grip, powedercoated, stainless steel blade 10 inches long and 3/16 inches thick, this is a top-class weapon of war". He then talks about an instructor showing students how to strike with a Parang and he swung, hit the tree stumpy, the blade swung back and cut the instructor across the leg. He pretended to ignore it and continued with his lecture till he eventually fell back and collapsed due to massive blood loss. :\

By the way I noticed someone make a 'Rambo' reference at Bows, the movie makers fell in love with bows because they were used and it was quite shocking for them and strange; they kind of fell for it and it made a good storylline:

Unconventional warriors are so unconventional that they have been known to use a bow and arrow for stealth missions; as known from WW1 to Korea (and most likely other conflicts). It can be used to kill game for food. Specialised arrow heads like explosive heads can be used to destroy material or soft tissue in an instance. There is no muzzle flash, and it is deadly quiet; it is perfect for night ops and stealth ops. It has light penetration effects on very light material but explosive heads make up for that and are used for harder material like heavy wood and light steel.

In the book "The Teams", a SEAL team commander describes that he purchased an assortment of cross-bows for his team to use in Vietnam but he was prohibited from using them because the Hague Convention made a provision stating that those weapons are "too quiet" to use in combat, its almost as if it has been set up to provide rules similar to hunting season. The SEAL team were going to use them for a variety of means, including hunting, they learnt the art of the bow because the bow and arrow shafts themself (which can be spiked to form a make-shift arrowhead) are easy to make and the materials can be found anywhere in the world.

So stealth doesn't have to be just knives, it can be a number of different types of weaponary and even your bare hands - though that won't be implemented, I'm just saying that for discussion. I wonder if they are still banned? But with conflicts now a days, average engagements being 500m's then there is no chance or a very slim chance of using the weapons. Maybe in a future war with better and more complex, close, terrain; a more conventional war would increase chances also but the terrain is the bigger deal - that's probably why the useage of a knife or similar was more common in places like the main cities and areas of Iraq. Stealth can also mean fixing AI scripts, silenced weaponary and subsonic ammunition too by the way so at least I hope they do that! ;D

Edited June 2, 2011 by Rye
Changes

[nkenny 1051]

No clue but I like the idea. I know BIS can make a 110% better job than other companies; that's why we're not playing other games like this one and I bet they could make something of it.

110% better than other companies? Hardly. Aside from the truly excellent update followups BIS provides BIS pales in comparison to VALVE, id software or Blizzard when it comes to delivering well thought out software.

110%?

Look at the devheaven page. Look for all the silly config errors that could be fixed with about an hour of work-- or the odd bugs/features that have been present since operation flashpoint days. STILL NOT FIXED.

I would not trust knifefighting to be implemented in any sensible way from the company that gave us the PMC DLC.

-k

[R0adki11 3948]

Bayonet should be at least included, the British Army still trains with them.

@NkEnNy well if your moaning about all the faults of BIS games, why do you bother playing them?