ARMA 2: OA release candidate build 78473

[metalcraze 290]

Exactly. People just believe that if they will get the same retarded animation speed from BF2 it won't have them killed in PvP.

The guy who killed you had the same speed as you. He is just better than you. Deal with it. Or go play one of those tons of samey arcade deathmatch shooters coming out every year.

No need to ruin the game for the rest of us, who want a milsim as was advertised considering that there is no alternative.

I really hope BIS will restore speeds to where they were.

Edited February 28, 2011 by metalcraze

[Beagle 684]

I guess the PvP argument here is about the ability for speed volleys of RPGs against MBTs at 1000m and indstant switch to AK after that (don't forget to play a Doom style weapon switch sound in your head)...still a faulty feature in ArmA II. Next feature request will be the rocket launcher jump capability and bunny hopping for a better PvP experience?

Slow down ArmA II exept rifle reload and sidearm draw and were coming closer to what the word left and right of the monitor looks like.

Btw. you rarely see soldiers runnig around zig zag in this world left and right of your TFT...hey...this guys are as lazy as you are in front of your TFT and avoid moving whenever possible.

A lot of soldiering is lying for 2 hours in a wet hole waiting for someone to shoot at...called "camping" in PvP but is a very valid tactic left and right of your TFT.

the "camper" should always have the upper hand when hes in a good position.

If this makes it into the final im out of PvP...will be the first time I refuse to upgrade a BIS game in 10 Years.

I always really liked the slower pace of PvP compared to corridor shooters in ArmA, thats why im still here.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Beagle

[stk2008 14]

I don't even know why we are having this discussion on animation speed.

I have never even considered the speed to be bad etc.

But I do consider the performance at which the game runs at even on computers equal to NASA spec computers :P to be under par and would like to see this improved.

I am sure BIS are improving it but while they are faffing about with animation speeds there loosing hours and extra man/girl power on the optimization side of things.

Any ways BIS all ways deliver in the end so I have trust in what they are doing and will just see.

[suma 8]

I am sure BIS are improving it but while they are faffing about with animation speeds there loosing hours and extra man/girl power on the optimization side of things.

Regarding this, I can assure you we are not losing hours. Tweaking animations is not something a programmer would do. Optimizing performance on the other hand is a programmers job.

[andersson 285]

If people want animations that are faster due to gameplay whats wrong with using a mod? Truemod is there already.

If this change would happen I must use a mod that slows down the anims. If I belong to the minority I'm ok with that. If BIS will do this simple (ugly) tweak to hide some problems with their animations, I see it as a step in the wrong direction as it breaks the immersion when you see the avatars moving less like RL humans.

[Hanzu 10]

ARMA 2 1.58 public RC (most likely it will not change unless You find something TERRIBLE)

Ok so those who resist unrealisticly fast animation speeds, say you find it TERRIBLE now! ;) After all it is RC (Release Candinate) and candinates they can fail. So listen to me "candinate 1.58", you need to re-do your graduation and make that AT/AA switching and using slower, ladder climbing slower and pistol switching faster. LMG reloading while running impossible and so on...

Lets assume when new player buys Arma 2 Combined Operations from Steam or from whatever and then gets to know with the game. Most of them players do not immediately go to PVP servers because they know they need practice in a complex game like this or they will just get frustrated to their bad skill.

Most of them also have no knowledge on using mods or modding or any reference what mods to choose with multitude of them that exist, so they just go for tutorial missions and official singleplayer campaign instead.

In singleplayer campaign and missions I can only imagine them using some vehicle and driving to a spot where 5 enemies will switch from rifle to AT in a split of a second. Their first impression must be, I drove to a mine or I was shot from nowhere by invisible enemy. So imagine missions like Dogs Of War with lots of enemy RPG men. As a vehicle gunner you used to see when enemy was changing from rifle to RPG or any antitank and you had some warning time to gun them down. So when you make changes to the game first think what impact they possibly have on official missions which are sold with the game and which are usually the first impression for most of new people who buy the game. If you are BIS game veteran you can easily skip official missions and go for mods or PVP or whatever, but if you are new for BIS game then your impression about official campaigns affects you decision whether you buy DLCs or not. So I cannot emphasize who important bug fixing and regular official mission testing is for sales. Eventually people do go to DLCs, mods and user missions and PvP when you have the satisfactory skill for it, but only if they are not too disappointed, to continue playing this game and excited enough to recommend it to their friends. Old games do not sell by reviews they sell by recommendations by fellow gamers and fellow gamers recommend a product where you spend most of your time playing and not fighting bugs or thinking what is wrong with performace when you have state-of-the-art hardware and still it does not run as fast as other games.

Speed vs realism. Personally I will probably start to spend more time in other games (which are mostly flying simulators or tactical shooters), if this game gets any more less realistic. I also don't see why PVP players would need that speed up, if they are all in same line. Operations that are slow are slow for everyone and if your character gets killed in some situation you can exploit that very same situation to kill another character. But like said some kind of PVP option to speed up those things they want from game options would be the best choice and do not tell it is not possible, nothing is impossible, it is just a matter how much work the developers are ready to do for things like that.

If you make a poll such as this and lot of people spend time on reading and writing comments, you should take actions according the highest votes and choose opinions with democracy. That is how votings work optimally in real life work.

Like in any other beta discussions there are always some people who say concentrate your developing power on fixing serious bugs and I'm one of those people. I say this because there was about 10 of use who all started playing Arma2 CO together by september 2010 and 2 of these players got tired of the game saying they are all stressed out because of bugs and because of that they do not enjoy it anymore and do not play it anymore. So in my point of view 20% of players will quit Arma2 because of the bugs and not because they like some other game more. Bugs... overload of those just removes capability to enjoy this game for some people. Hopefully I can stand them longer.

You wanted opinion. So here is one. Sorry if that is not what you expected.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Hanzu

[andersson 285]

Terrible yes.

I guess whats more important for the PvP scene, and for all game modes, or working anims and not necessarily faster. The things that get you shot is getting stuck in animations or bad transitions (annoying when your avatar is standing up or switching to weapons you dont need). If that is fixed more speed is not needed.

[metalcraze 290]

If this change would happen I must use a mod that slows down the anims.

Ah yes that's another thing. A mod which will not work in multiplayer as unlike soundmods it isn't something optional and has to be installed by everyone.

PvP scene probably just confuses this game with CoD? When you carry 30 KG of stuff and guns do have weight you are not a pro acrobat anymore.

[celery 8]

PvP scene probably just confuses this game with CoD?

Jesus. Tapdancing. Christ.

You really don't read much, do you?

[Dead_Meat 10]

@ Beagle

You miss the point that much you are not even on the same planet.

So, just cos I prefer to play against REAL players than AI, it makes me a bunny hopping COD follower?

FFS guys, I expect that kind of behaviour from small children or adults that need to pop their cherry.

Hanzu has more of an idea here that most of you put together.

PVP players dont want sped up anims, they want BETTER, NON GLITCHY anims.

And yes, both sides have the same "issues" and bugs with the current system, its all about frustration in getting caught in one of those glitches.

Yes I prefer faster gameplay cos I have a real life, real family and real job, I cannot spend hours at a time playing huge CTIs or coops (which I do like, just dont get the time to play) so the small, fast 30 min CTF/C&H against live players suits me.

Beagle, I reckon the PVP community couldn't give a sh*t if you stop playing MP, TBH, with your narrow minded view on things, you won't be missed.

LOL Celery, some things dont change hehe

DM

[celery 8]

The reason why the pvp scene holds these kinds of improvements (do note that nobody said the sped-up animations are optimal) dear is because when you play against human opponents, even the slightest mistake, clumsiness or glitch often results in disaster, and when the fault resides in the game, it can get extremely frustrating.

when the fault is in the game, it makes gameplay less fun and introduces the "avoid-a-bug" minigame that hasn't received much critical acclaim. Some of the animation speeds can be considered borderline bugs because the end result can be achieved better with alternate means (change between kneeling and standing is faster and quieter while doing a step in some direction) or they suddenly become cumbersome under certain conditions (grenade throwing is already slow when standing - try it while kneeling or wielding a sidearm). Everyone has to deal with the same stuff, but nobody likes to make managing them a skill and thus a factor in itself.

I would imagine that regarding the "everyone is on the same level" argument, this hasn't gotten old during the last few pages.

[Beagle 684]

@ Beagle

You miss the point that much you are not even on the same planet.

So, just cos I prefer to play against REAL players than AI, it makes me a bunny hopping COD follower?

FFS guys, I expect that kind of behaviour from small children or adults that need to pop their cherry.

Hanzu has more of an idea here that most of you put together.

PVP players dont want sped up anims, they want BETTER, NON GLITCHY anims.

And yes, both sides have the same "issues" and bugs with the current system, its all about frustration in getting caught in one of those glitches.

Yes I prefer faster gameplay cos I have a real life, real family and real job, I cannot spend hours at a time playing huge CTIs or coops (which I do like, just dont get the time to play) so the small, fast 30 min CTF/C&H against live players suits me.

Beagle, I reckon the PVP community couldn't give a sh*t if you stop playing MP, TBH, with your narrow minded view on things, you won't be missed.

LOL Celery, some things dont change hehe

DM

I can only assume that you simply dont know much about the long time BIS gamers pvp scene. Maybe a lot of players are very comfy with the way BIS games play because we had 10 years to get used to it and to get around the problemtic parts...for example by using more close to life procedures that by the way are there to avoid the problems that occur in the game sometimes...like preparing a Laucher without cover by your buddies or going CQC with a heavy MG or .50 sniper rifle...Oh yes...this happens very frequently PvP nowadays. I realyl dont see a quality increase with the new PvP scene members that come over here from corridor shooters. Thsui guys jjst bring such lifelike tactics like flying a Helo to crash it into a town for killign as mauch A.I. as possible and respawn at a camp fo fight on...not my style...really.

Having a high score build up with 50+ respawns and goinf to battle by fast travel is not really what I consider MilSim gaming, but this is how the games turns out to be more from year to year.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Beagle

[stk2008 14]

Regarding this, I can assure you we are not losing hours. Tweaking animations is not something a programmer would do. Optimizing performance on the other hand is a programmers job.

That`s good to hear then Suma and I there fore stand corrected.

But I really hope this animation speed thing does not happen I am happy with the way its is and have been for years and if it does I will there for have to run a mod to slow it down again as said by others ut I hope I wont have to.

Plus I think the poll speaks for itself.

EDIT

How about having it as an option then at least? or is this way to much work? and it will be set by the server.

Edited February 28, 2011 by stk2008

[Hanzu 10]

I see your point even better now. After getting married and having a son, I've limited my playing to once a week (long session) and just want better less bug free good performance gaming experience to satisfy the ever lasting hunger of always a little too less time for gaming. :)

We should not make this PVP fellows against other fellows, but instead we should find a golden path between all the demands about animations and stand together behind our demands as one community to convince BIS not to go easy way and release RC as is state but with changes that will have something faster, something slower and something smoother and above all that cancal possibility for all animations, so we can take a path of The Good Samaritan without beeing shot at when we freeze to heal fellow fighter gone down. :)

[Beagle 684]

We should not make this PVP fellows against other fellows, but instead we should find a golden path between all the demands about animations and stand together behind our demands as one community to convince BIS not to go easy way and release RC as is state but with changes that will have something faster, something slower and something smoother and above all that cancal possibility for all animations, so we can take a path of The Good Samaritan without beeing shot at when we freeze to heal fellow fighter gone down. :)

The solution is very simple...animations should simpyl relflext the way NORMAL military personal handles stuff...not like "The Flash" or "Bruce Lee".

In short...this is about new animation speed and the old speed was way better, albeit some animations to slow and some actions already too fast...period.

If I remeber right "we players" (as a majority...just check poll) always wanted a way to interrupt actions and animations, not speed up animations.

[Taxman 10]

I can only assume that you simply dont know much about the long time BIS gamers pvp scene. .

Beagle matey I can only assume you havent been in the "PvP scene" as long as Deadmeat, otherwise you would realise that he hasnt just come on the scene and has been involved in OFP since the original which should at least give him some creditbility....

[Beagle 684]

Beagle matey I can only assume you havent been in the "PvP scene" as long as Deadmeat, otherwise you would realise that he hasnt just come on the scene and has been involved in OFP since the original which should at least give him some creditbility....

The scene is not universal since there are no BIS run 24 hours servers, Every severs provides its own style and people stick to this server because they prefer the was matches are set up there. Hes not in "my little scene" and im not in "his little scene", thats for sure since there is no big scene besides of this forum.

ArmA consists of fractions already. the ACE fraction, the we play armylike MilSim Style, call me Sir... (simHQ, 7th Cav.) The "Clan" fraction and the "I'm still public because my Mum/Wife allows me only 2 hours a day" fraction and lots more.

We need a base to build on an that should be "lifelike" for this game. Whats to discuss here?

Does someone really consider the animations in this RC lifelike or is it just me eating too much sedatives?

[Dead_Meat 10]

As tax mentioned, the folks that are asking for the new anims for PVP play are very much "old skool" here, who have been playing this since the original OFP so your comments are not only insulting but do show a complete lack of respect for others or their views.

Now, NONE of thos commenting here like the new anims 100% and tbh, from my point of view the old anims are the right speeds for me, I just want to be able to break out of a step over or a reload or a grenade throw when I see an enemy come round the corner.

Altho the new anims certainly seem to rile those of the "hard of thinking" persuasion, I see it as "progress". Its not perfect but its a start.

I said it before and I will say it again, this game is definitely big enough for all of us here. We all need to learn to play together and accept that we are not the only ones playing this game.

I say improve the anims as a matter of course. If those that really dislike the anims, go play with a mod (as you say), the PVP community has been playing with the dodgy anims for years, so its time for someone esle to share in this, then perhaps we will get something done that pleases all.

[Beagle 684]

@ Dead_Meat

This thread and the poll above is unfortunately not about a new set of animatiosn or a new method for interupting a action, it is only about if or not we like the speed up old animations.

No place for muc discussion in my opinion, and thats why im so narrow minded in this thread.

I don't really want to insult any "fraction", I just want to stand my ground for the "base game as it was till 1.58RC" What is done beyond this base by mods it not my business.

The way ArmA I is played is founded on soem kind of tradition and im not a fan of throwing it all over board for a cheap and only cosmetic solution that does'nt touch the core problem at all but makes parts of the game "feel" really arkward.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Beagle

[nyles 11]

Seriously guys, stop that PvP vs PvE crap. This has nothing to do with the whole issue.

I am pretty sure I am not talking bullshit when I claim that all players want reliable player control and well-weighted animations that feel *right*.

Having a long-standing history in both PvP and PvE since OFP days (incl. power gaming in competitive leagues and also night-long coop sessions), I don't see how speeds will have an impact here. I really don't see animation speeds being an issue here, except for maybe a handful actions.

The real issue is lack of control.

On one hand this means missing transitions (i.e. lower weapon with AT launcher forces switch to rifle), missing movement states (i.e. cannot crawl with AT launcher; resricted movement with binocs; etc), and also simply bugs like getting forced into a sidestep animation or collision issues with nearby obstacles and the inability to interrupt certain animations when the actor dies, causing delays in hit feedback.

On the other hand I would also extend this to aesthetics: The no-weapon/pistol animation set looks even more sub-standard than most of the other animations. Reload animations are very generic, not even allowing to differentiate in reload duration between weapon categories (i.e. rifle vs. mg). Also, aiming down the sights looks and feels very outdated. It's not too bad when you are not moving, but any sort of aiming down the sights while there is the tiniest bit of player movement, is just plain bad looking and hard to control for the player.

And lastly of course, some animations speeds simply feel off. However, this can be limited to a fair few examples and does not warrant an animation speed up across the board in my opinion.

Put your game designer hats on, and I am sure you can easily identify those few troublemaker animations and separate them from animations that work okay'ish when you look at them within the broader context of an outdated and flawed animation system.

Of course it's simply not feasible to rework the entire animation system or update all animation assets at this point. This is something that should happen for new products or new iterations of the engine.

Suma, you are absolutely right that this whole animation speed topic is not taking away programmer time from doing further optimizations (and there has been some awesome progress already!), but just having designers scale animation times globally sounds very risky to me and might in the end create more unforseen issues that still need to be addressed from the code or asset sides, and which could have been avoided with a collaborative effort to address this topic in the first place.

I would actually prefer, if there would be a stronger involvement by code for looking into bugs in the animation system alongside. Have an animator create a number of quick transitions and perhaps even movement states that could help increase player control of his avatar, hook them up in code and have a system designer overlook this process from a gameplay point of view and do some final corrections via animation scales to fine-tune.

Maybe this is exactly how the workflow for this is handled at BIS, but the way this has been presented to the community as a casual approach by Dwarden, because he couldn't sleep, didn't really do this topic justice IMHO. As you can see, it has stirred up quite an emotional debate, and brought up a lot of swalled-up frustration by both the PvE and PvP parts of the community.

Sorry, if this turned out to be a bit lengthy, and I hope you understand that this is not meant to piss anybody off. From my experience, I think it always works best to resolve issues like that when you look at them from the user experience as a whole. Don't separate gameplay and aesthetics, they are both very important for shaping the experience and making the game feel right.

[andersson 285]

Well put Nyles. I would guess that you words sums up what most of us think?

[Beagle 684]

Well put Nyles. I would guess that you words sums up what most of us think?

Yes it does, at least for me!

[sickboy 13]

Voted NO:

I dislike the animation speed changes; they are too fast, and unnatural in many cases.

I would prefer the original ones back, while some slightly tweaked up compared to original, but not like this.

As pointed out by others, since the speeds are easily modable (like done in the patch), I think having them on a natural level would be best, while those who want them slower or faster can install mods.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Sickboy

[kremator 1064]

Nyles get my vote. Well said that man. Nothing more to add to it !

[.kju 3240]

Public play will remain non addon play.

Unless BI implements addon download or makes mergeConfig available again (config tweaks as part of a mission).