Latest Beta Patch: 72197

[milkyway12 10]

Hey BIS , i thought i would come on here and post since you guys do read this area of the forums. I would really like to have the AI improved , i am very proud of you guys for this release , i have very good performance and NO CTDS!!!! I am so happy i play the game all the time.

but!

If i tell my AI to drive they do good 40% of the time , they seem to swirve on the road for some reason but there is no reason but they dont do it as often if you put them on SAFE and Column Compact. Also when you let the AI drive or tell them go to a location they take off road paths. I really wish there was an option to tell the AI to stay on the road because some times they take cross country trips. When it takes 15 20 minutes to get to the other side of the map , your wrist tend to get annoyed from resting on the desk :)

Also , a thing i have noticed is going up hills , is very slow and doesnt seem very realistic. 12 MPH (Notice a tank with a jet engine in the back of it lol!) seems a bit slow to me. Also running up hills , in real life you would dig your hills down and push up the hill when running , slowing down to a walk while getting shot at , isnt very fun , specially when you get pegged in the kidneys :).

Just some things to look at if possible.

Edited July 23, 2010 by milkyway12

[^Th0mas^ 10]

Why do AI driving suck in ArmA II ? I cant remember having these problems in Operation Flashpoint, and its a very old game.

[Sith 0]

Why do AI driving suck in ArmA II ? I cant remember having these problems in Operation Flashpoint, and its a very old game.

While I'm not familiar with all the pathfinding intricacies, this may have something to do with it ...

Flashpoint roads:

(screenshot by Symbiot)

ArmA II roads:

[^Th0mas^ 10]

While I'm not familiar with all the pathfinding intricacies, this may have something to do with it ...

Flashpoint roads:

(screenshot by Symbiot)

ArmA II roads:

Ok, im sorry. I didnt remember, its soooo long since last i played OfP :). But nice pics.

[Yoma 0]

And besides that, back then there where also plenty of issues with Ai's getting stuck :P

[Seitan 8]

Why do AI driving suck in ArmA II ? I cant remember having these problems in Operation Flashpoint, and its a very old game.

I don't think it sucks in vanilla ArmA II. But in Arrowhead - Takistan, it sure does. It's like AI is trying to use the shortest way to get to the waypoint. No matter how high mountain there is in the way. They just start to climp hills straight away. Altought not sure how much this has to do with the mission (Warfare BE). But happens like this. I'm other side of the map. I order vehicle from base. It spawns and start to climp nearest mountain if it's the straighest way on the map. No matter if there's road near. Who needs roads eh :)

[TimRiceSE 10]

seems like teh pathfinding is a bit screwy when it comes to mountains?

[turin turambar 0]

While I'm not familiar with all the pathfinding intricacies, this may have something to do with it ...

Flashpoint roads:

(screenshot by Symbiot)

ArmA II roads:

Better and more grass and vegetation? Better models and textures and shaders? I don't see anything that should affect AI driving.

The AI also has problems in broader, clean, main roads in Arma 2, so that comparison is bogus.

[Serclaes 0]

how about "lots of objects around" ?

Oh btw. very funny how you tell a dev that his comparison is bogus without having a damn clue what you are talking about :)

[NoRailgunner 0]

Sometimes AIs are driving offroad even on safe behaviour - perhaps some paths got displaced for whatever reasons?

In some places like crossroads AI are turning around, driving back and using another road. Maybe some roads or parts of it are not 100% connected to each other?

Dont know if a tool would be handy for island/map designers that show/analyze how the AI drives and where the "get-stuck", "turn-around" and crash places or spots are? Just a idea, thought.

[f2k sel 164]

For me on most maps it's as if the AI even in safe or careless mode try and use the buildings for cover. If it's a Civ driver they jump out and lie down in the middle of the action, then keep jumping back in and out. Now maybe as I've never been to war that's what Civ drivers do but some how I don't think so.

I've about given up using vehicles on the roads as it's a waste of time, they never turn up how they should being getting damaged or stuck for ages trying to get past other units.

One of the biggest problems is that when they do stop instead of carrying on as before they perform some sort of turn which can take a while before they sort themselves out.

Edited July 23, 2010 by F2k Sel

[KeyCat 131]

You are missing a couple of things.

Also , a thing i have noticed is going up hills , is very slow and doesnt seem very realistic. 12 MPH (Notice a tank with a jet engine in the back of it lol!) seems a bit slow to me.

Generally a tank weights ~40-60 tons, to move that kinda mass take some real effort. I'm not saying current speeds are 100% as IRL, just pointing out why it shouldn't fly over hills etc. like rocket sleds on meth.

Also running up hills , in real life you would dig your hills down and push up the hill when running , slowing down to a walk while getting shot at , isnt very fun , specially when you get pegged in the kidneys :).

Try yourself outside by "running" up for a slope a couple of times with 30+ kg weapon, ammo and combat gear and then re-evalute your suggestion, also try it while it's 35+ degree C in shadow ;)

While typing above I kept "hearing" my old Sergeant yelling something like (but in Swedish).

- Come on! Move faster you maggots.....You move like snails!!!!

Sure we where no elites but we where all normaly fit even if we where armoured mech.

:)

/KC

Edited July 23, 2010 by KeyCat

[sniper pilot 36]

BIS you got the AI pretty much perfect now IMHO! I just cleared a town with a bunch of units, they didn't get stuck in Danger, they covered their sectors and they did what was expected of them! The only improvement I can ask is in the driving sector, which really isn't that bad either! (compared to A2,A1, and OFP)

Also when a helicopter drops off units they are a tad too high.

I really hope you guys keep the infantry AI as is, as I am really happy with it!

[milkyway12 10]

You dont understand the slope of these hills :)

Im talking 20 degree slopes maybe 26 28 degree , you dont stop to walk up it. We have a 50 degree incline i am running now with 3 45 pound weights in my ruck (getting in shape for Ranger School *Crosses Fingers*) i live in Mississippi where it is actually hotter here than in the desert (Feels like it) 95-103 on average with 70-90% humidity constantly lol , its not that hard to run up the hill now. i can run up it 17 times , not including the jog down before the burn takes over.

I just think the walk takes over a little early :)

---------- Post added at 01:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------

Maybe a little lower than 50 45ish i havnt acctually measured it , just eye balled it.

[KeyCat 131]

You dont understand the slope of these hills :)

Maybe I was more out of shape than the average at 19 ;)

Im talking 20 degree slopes maybe 26 28 degree , you dont stop to walk up it. We have a 50 degree incline i am running now with 3 45 pound weights in my ruck...

If you run that slopes with ~60 kg (3 x 45 punds) in your backpack you surely knows what it takes and I admitt you are way more fit than I ever was, good luck with Ranger School!

Back OT:

Maybe I got used to the way it is in A2 and I usually zig-zag a bit on slopes to avoid the walking pace.

/KC

Edited July 23, 2010 by KeyCat

[suma 8]

[/color]Maybe a little lower than 50 45ish i havnt acctually measured it , just eye balled it.

Eye balling is often a problem. 50 degree is a lot steeper than a staircase. I have heard people several times to claim they were running (or driving a car) to a "eye-balled" 50, 60 or whatever per-cent hill by such or such speed, and each time when we measured the slope, it has turned out the slope was something like 10-25 percent (i.e. under 15 degrees).

Few numbers for a comparison:

- a typical staircase has a slope around 60 percent (33-35 degrees)

- a HMMWV is rated to climb a maximum 60% slope head on, or 40% across the slope

- The steepest slopes on main roads in mountain areas are usualy 12 % or 18 % (under 11 degrees)

- maximum operating slope for tractors and other agricultural vehicles is usualy 20 degrees (36 %).

---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:18 ----------

Generally a tank weights ~40-60 tons, to move that kinda mass take some real effort. I'm not saying current speeds are 100% as IRL, just pointing out why it shouldn't fly over hills etc. like rocket sleds on meth.

Our reference for M1 Abrams was:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm

Speed - 10% Slope 20 mph

Speed - 60% Slope 4.5 mph

[shataan 1]

Uphill movement could be upped a tad speedwise. Even if you added just half the speed it is now to the speed it is now, it`d be better.

As for the A.I. , I like how they are onfoot. Even in just Normal going against them in the Armoury Missions, they are challenging. But A.I. pathfinding while driving needs tweakage. I know BIS will get it right. They did the same for OFP back in the day.

[milkyway12 10]

Roger that Suma you pretty much shut me up :) , now the pathing needs to be checked so i can sit in the commander seat and watch TV while the AI drives :P

lol key kat , thats why im doing this so maybe it will save me a few push ups and the Instructor making me feel like im the scum of the Earth :P

Edited July 23, 2010 by milkyway12

[turin turambar 0]

how about "lots of objects around" ?

Oh btw. very funny how you tell a dev that his comparison is bogus without having a damn clue what you are talking about :)

You mean object that the AI should ignore if is driving in an uninterrumpted road, at least for the segment it uses the road?

I really doubt the AI takes in account every object near the road. They couldn't drive in forests in that case, with hundred of trees around the road!

Yeah i am sure i don't have any idea i am talking about...

Edited July 23, 2010 by Turin Turambar

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Consider as worsening engine effects also the base (offset) altitude of 2000 meters (6562 feet) and hot (day) climate of the Takistan region. Engines themselves might not give optimum performance in these conditions.

@milkyway12: Would you mind photographing that 50° incline and show us? ;)

[KeyCat 131]

Our reference for M1 Abrams was:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm

Thanks for the figures used as ref in A2. Actually I can't really remember the exact speed the old Strv 103C climbed slopes but it wasn't fast, I remember that.

Old yes but quite uniqe in it's days without a turret.

Don't know if you are helped by crashdumps at all (?) but here is another one using 72197, got it in MP at CF server, ~30-50 players and I was typing in chat sitting in a LB while it happend, played for ~120+ min.

http://keycat.no-ip.com/files/A2OA_B72197_CrashDump02.zip

If you need more computer/OS/etc. spec. I will fill in....

gn

/KC

Edited July 24, 2010 by KeyCat

[Scrub 0]

Well, other than the mentioned driving issues, I'm having knock-out drag-out battles in the editor in both vanilla OA and loaded with tons of addons! This game is becoming more than suspenseful and satisfying, it's becoming VERY EXCITING! CQB is now an absolute blast with AI utilizing cover about as well as most players.

Only concerns:

-Heard the rumor, and agree would be nice if the weapon model was used for collision in tight spaces and/or the doorways could be made a bit more 'slippery'. I get hung-up leaning and creeping out of doorways, end up taking a full step outside to clear the obstruction, and instantly get shot by the unit I feared was there.

-The mod scripts for AI to use buildings are a great work-around, no complaints - but BIS, I believe that is the only base feature missing from the AI's list of capabilities. Please look into this, if you aren't already. AI would be pretty 'complete' if there ever WAS such a thing.

These are the only gripes I can dig up.. And I've done some digging!

Very enjoyable, Thank You!

[Grizzle 0]

Regarding the driving AI. I don't think it's poor path finding so much. Try assigning a single vehicle multiple waypoints in the location of your choice and they tend to do fairly well at navigation - at least when those waypoints are on roads. Now add some other vehicles and group them with your first vehicle and watch how the driving ability takes a serious dive. The leader tends to still do fairly well, but the rest... forget it.

If you really want to see the difference, place the following script in a file in your mission directory and call it from the group leaders init function like so: nul = [this] execVM "nameofscript.sqf";

private ["_leader", "_index", "_units", "_groups", "_oldGroup", "_waypoints"];

_leader = _this select 0;

_index = 0;

_units = [];

_groups = [];

_oldGroup = group _leader;

_waypoints = createGroup side _leader;

_waypoints copyWaypoints group _leader;

{ _units = _units + [_x]; } forEach units group _leader;

{ _groups = _groups + [createGroup (side _x)]; } forEach _units;

{ _x copyWaypoints _waypoints; [_units select _index] join _x; _index = _index + 1 } forEach _groups;

This script breaks the group up so that each unit is a group unto themselves. It then copies the waypoints from the leader of the original group to each new group. They drive much better this way, though still not perfect.

Not that this is some sort of solution, but it indicates a lot of the issues with poor driving stem from the group following logic when there are more than one unit in the group of vehicles.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Grizzle

[Jelliz 10]

Regarding the driving AI. I don't think it's poor path finding so much. Try assigning a single vehicle multiple waypoints in the location of your choice and they tend to do fairly well at navigation - at least when those waypoints are on roads. Now add some other vehicles and group them with your first vehicle and watch how the driving ability takes a serious dive. The leader tends to still do fairly well, but the rest... forget it.

If you really want to see the difference, place the following script in a file in your mission directory and call it from the group leaders init function like so: nul = [this] execVM "nameofscript.sqf";

private ["_leader", "_index", "_units", "_groups", "_oldGroup", "_waypoints"];

_leader = _this select 0;

_index = 0;

_units = [];

_groups = [];

_oldGroup = group _leader;

_waypoints = createGroup side _leader;

_waypoints copyWaypoints group _leader;

{ _units = _units + [_x]; } forEach units group _leader;

{ _groups = _groups + [createGroup (side _x)]; } forEach _units;

{ _x copyWaypoints _waypoints; [_units select _index] join _x; _index = _index + 1 } forEach _groups;

This script breaks the group up so that each unit is a group unto themselves. It then copies the waypoints from the leader of the original group to each new group. They drive much better this way, though still not perfect.

Not that this is some sort of solution, but it indicates a lot of the issues with poor driving stem from the group following logic when there are more than one unit in the group of vehicles.

It has mostly to do with the the AI driving speed in groups, i can get 3 vehicles to drive pretty smooth for a long time using "forcespeed 10" for each vehicle. But the more vehicles in the convoy, the slower i must force them to drive.

If you do this without script, you can see the AI speeding up to reach the leader, but once they get there they have to slow down and avoid collision with the car infront of them, they then turn to go around the car, but after 2-3 seconds, they realise the car has moved on. This happens for each vehicle behind the leader.

[Grizzle 0]

It has mostly to do with the the AI driving speed in groups, i can get 3 vehicles to drive pretty smooth for a long time using "forcespeed 10" for each vehicle. But the more vehicles in the convoy, the slower i must force them to drive.

If you do this without script, you can see the AI speeding up to reach the leader, but once they get there they have to slow down and avoid collision with the car infront of them, they then turn to go around the car, but after 2-3 seconds, they realise the car has moved on. This happens for each vehicle behind the leader.

Yes, I have seen this too as it was what prompted me to play around with different "solutions". I have also expeirmented with setting the speed for each unit based on the speed of the leader, but even that doesn't help too much. It's obviously work needing to be fixed behind the scenes.

To take it a bit further, the AI in ground vehicles need to be a bit more light on the gas and easy on the steering. They accelerate too quickly and in the scenario you described they tend to oversteer too much as well. Both things make for taking them out of formation in the squad and causing all sorts of poor behavior. Smaller increments of 'gassing it' and steering for each loop of the AI logic as it tries to correct it's path would lessen the issue I think.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Grizzle