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Curry

Zeroing/Adjusting Weapons in OA

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<sighs> Is it so hard to differentiate between zeroing and setting the elevation? You never zero the weapon in the field. It is done in base with tools to adjust the sights, shooting at targets through a predetermined drill to be sure that the weapon shoots straight for that particular shooter.

You only adjust elevation and windage in the field, which usually is done by either turning knobs, flipping to another peephole, or or sliding the ladder sight.

Glad to see that at least some people got it right :P

The ZERO, and not the elevation adjustment, is the great problem with sniper rifles for example, since a too hard knock the rifle can make the scope lose its zero, meaning the shooter will have to manually adjust for that rifle no longer shoots straight (relative to the zeroed sight-line of the optics), until the weapon can be re-zeroed at base.

For example the British SUSAT sights have great issues with this, easily losing their zero (although I can't recall the specific reason why, if it's because of the optic itself, or how the sight is attached to the weapon) meaning rough handling of SUSAT-equipped rifles is a no-go if you want to hit where you aim.

Edited by Inkompetent

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<sighs> Is it so hard to differentiate between zeroing and setting the elevation? You never zero the weapon in the field. It is done in base with tools to adjust the sights, shooting at targets through a predetermined drill to be sure that the weapon shoots straight for that particular shooter.

You only adjust elevation and windage in the field, which usually is done by either turning knobs, flipping to another peephole, or or sliding the ladder sight.

Glad to see that at least some people got it right :P

The ZERO, and not the elevation adjustment, is the great problem with sniper rifles for example, since a too hard knock the rifle can make the scope lose its zero, meaning the shooter will have to manually adjust for that rifle no longer shoots straight (relative to the zeroed sight-line of the optics), until the weapon can be re-zeroed at base.

For example the British SUSAT sights have great issues with this, easily losing their zero (although I can't recall the specific reason why, if it's because of the optic itself, or how the sight is attached to the weapon) meaning rough handling of SUSAT-equipped rifles is a no-go if you want to hit where you aim.

You are right but ingame it says "zeroing" so I used that term. But yeah it's just setting the elevation of your rear sight really.

But I think you can use both terms because if you are zeroeing your rifle you have to set the elevation of your rear sight for a specific distance too. If you are in the field and you are shooting at a longer distance you have to "re-zero" your rifle and set a new elevation for your rear sight. You "re-zero" it from 300m to 400m or 500m because it's off target otherwise.

I zero my rifle at range but in combat I re-zero it at a new distance or set the correct elevation for my rear sight. I hope that is okay now. I think some people are nitpicking here :D

BTW we are talking about ironsights here and in my opinion if you change a setting on your ironsights you start correcting your zero position.

Edited by Curry

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Ignorance is so much more fun on forums... Come on people, Google isn't that hard to work.

Some people have already spelled it out very plainly, Zeroing a weapon is NOT something done in the field. You get your new weapon, and you go through a process to zero it (unless your country of choice or birth decides that your rifle is so specialized that it needs to be done by a trained technician). Once your rifle is zeroed, you leave it alone, end of story.

In the field you make elevation and windage adjustments, which on most weapons these adjustments are spelled out in the most basic form of native language. Making these adjustments typically are very easy, and quick, because in combat they need to be. By making these adjustments you are in no way shape or form changing your rifles zeroing. If you do somehow change your rifles zero, you are an idiot and deserve to die in combat according to Darwin's theory. If you believe otherwise, your probably not a trained soldier, or aren't a very good one, so refer back to the second half of the previous sentence...

and to all the DF2'ers.. GINSU! if you know, then you know...

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This is all very confusing. Reminds me of back in the Army when some idiot tried to get my to zero my weapon (M4) by changing range (thus raising the rear aperture) rather than the front sight post lol.

Anyways yeah zero is lining up the weapon to hit what you're aiming at and done (constantly) in the rear. Adjusting for range is done in the field. ACOGs don't adjust and the M68 (red dot) is for close quarters. So basically you're not adjusting for range unless you have an MG, sniper rifle, or iron sights. Even then combat usually takes place under 100m IIRC so it doesn't really matter unless you're on over watch, and even then you're likely to be within 300m. In all honestly though it would have been nice if we could actually zero the weapons. Sometimes it feels like my rounds aren't hitting right. I can put a dot on someone, crouch, hold breath, fire, and still miss from around 100m some times. I don't know if nervousness is modeled or something but I feel like I'm more accurate IRL than in game sometimes!

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Ignorance is so much more fun on forums... Come on people, Google isn't that hard to work.

Zeroing is an actual term that is used (incorrectly) in the game by the BIS developers. People on this forum are simply repeating the term that they see in the game; so I think that, in this case, ignorance lies not with the forum members, but rather someone else...

Peace,

DreDay

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Yeah, but they could use a bit of common sense.

It's really changing the elevation.

And Armored Sheep, i would like to do it in the scoped MGs, even if i can't use then the "marks" in the scope.

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You never zero the weapon in the field.

Well, actually you do sometimes, ref this. See section 2-10, part f - Field-Expedient Confirmation/Zeroing. But I agree, it's more an exception than a rule, and since screwed up zeroing isn't handled ingame, zeroing (not elevation adjustment) shouldn't be either.

In peace time, or if situation allows, you'd always get the armorer to do it through boresighting or laser boresighting. In war, and depending on the rifle/sights, you might have to rezero your own weapon if it got a beating.

It is weapon/sight dependant though, and I read an article about the SMAW where they would switch to iron sights instead if the sight was screwed up due to lazy armorers :p Sorry, can't find the article anymore.

But anyways it has nothing to do with gaming where such failures can't occur. And frankly, it would be too annoying it they were. One part of real life I don't want ingame I guess :)

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Maybe its because you are not allowed as a simple Infantryman to screw around the sights in real life. This is a job for a qualified specialist...and theres no need for it since the effective range of 300m is pretty point and shoot for Aimpoints and the ACOG at 400-600m has marks in the sight.

Windage is a sniper thing, so thats why it's only on sniper or special purporse rifles for really long ranges.

I do shooting in real life 50, 100 up to 300m quite often, but I always leave the windage as it is, just use another holding point for different ranges.

I really miss the feature on grenade launchers.

As a United States Marine I can adjust anything on my weapon I wish, but then again I don't use the standard-issue M4A1 variant either. I bought my own rifle and use it instead.

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Didn't know you guys are so anal about a simple term LOL :D

I think this thread has answered my question long time ago. Thanks for clearing things up. BI did a realistic way of implementing zeroing for IS and scopes ingame.

And I just want to clarify that in my opinion the word zeroing ingame is correct. At range you zero your gun at 300m maybe but in the field you have to re-zero it when you need to shoot at longer distances. You change a setting on your IS or scope or you zero it for the new distance. That's six of one and half a dozen of another.

Zeroed at 300m

Zeroed at 500m

Zeroed at 800m

...

What you guys maybe mean is "sighting in" your rifle at range... but you have to zero it for every new distance...

That's what you do first with a new gun when you got it. You go to the range and shoot a group at short distance. Then you know where the shots are going. Now the "sighing in" begins. You start adjusting your scope or IR that you hit the "zero point" at that short distance. After that you know your rifle is shooting straight and you can go for a longer distance and zero it in. But you have to zero it for every new distance too. Otherwise it will shoot too low or too high...

The term zeroing ingame is absolutely correct.

Edited by Curry

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@Myke

Can't you rotate the adjustment knobs on the Sig with your hand? Do you have to use a screwdriver?

You can rotate the drum in quarters, each givin the shooter another viewhole which fits for the desired range. They're set for 100, 200, 300 and 400 meters. They're meant for bulletdrop compensation (avoiding the term "zeroing"). The screws aren't meant to be handled manually, only with screwdriver. You don't want to screw the settings midbattle which could happen too easily if they were adjustable by hand.

Also this is something that can't be done by specialists. Those can check if the barrel isn't torched or "unstraight" (don't know correct english term but you get the point) and if physically everything is ok. But for final zeroing, this can only be done by the gun owner as it has a serious influence how this person holds the weapon, looks through the optics and much more factors.

But as said, this is done in controlled conditions, not on the battlefield unless you notice that the gun is that much screwed that you can't hit a barn door at 50 meters.

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Ignorance is so much more fun on forums... Come on people, Google isn't that hard to work.

Some people have already spelled it out very plainly, Zeroing a weapon is NOT something done in the field. You get your new weapon, and you go through a process to zero it (unless your country of choice or birth decides that your rifle is so specialized that it needs to be done by a trained technician). Once your rifle is zeroed, you leave it alone, end of story.

But it can be done in the field, sometimes it's even necessarity when army chooses night vision sights and their mounts for rifle which has to be zeroed each time they are inserted into rifle... Like every night. Which is like bit retarded gadget already even on military grade.

Set target to proper distance, get spotter with binocs. And start shooting and tell your spotter to tell you where did bullets go. Adjust sights by his feed back unit they hit the target. Sandy soil is good. In vicinity of enemy: Not so good idea.

Surely on ArmA's horizon this shouldn't be problem, but it can and should be done if there are worries if rifle has lost it's zero. My service rifle, old and used, lost it's zero pretty soon after adjustment, something between 5-10 cm at 150 meters. Otherwise good firearm, but i guess front poles adjustments (side ways adjustments) had some severe looseness in them.

In peace time, or if situation allows, you'd always get the armorer to do it through boresighting or laser boresighting. In war, and depending on the rifle/sights, you might have to rezero your own weapon if it got a beating.

Laser boresighting is unaccurate. When my bore and scope gets collimated by professional i don't hit even my target, looking thru bore and adjusting scope by so already brings hits to target. Only way you can know that your rifle hits what you aim is by shooting it. And on top of that each different bullet type will deviate from another's trajectory. My 7.62x53R Sako Range hits 20cm lower and few centimeter to left than my Lapua Naturalis.

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Technically, "Zeroing" a gun means adjusting the sight in a way in which, at a certain distance and under "perfect" conditions, such as no wind, bullet drop, etc. the center of the sight, crosshairs, red dot, etc. aims exactly at where the bullet is going to hit. If your bullet hits where your sight says it should, then your gun is zeroed.

Once the gun/sight has been "zeroed", adjusting the aim is just a matter of knowing what outside elements are going to affect the bullet's trajectory, calculate where in the sight is the bullet going to end and put your target right there. In case of snipers is different, because they are experts in adjusting the scope in every single shot they make according to distance and wind.

That's an important part of what to be a sniper is about: Calculating distances, winds and make sure that single bullet hits the target.

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You can rotate the drum in quarters, each givin the shooter another viewhole which fits for the desired range. They're set for 100, 200, 300 and 400 meters.

Then this gun should have adjustable IS for zeroing ingame too.:D

Technically, "Zeroing" a gun means adjusting the sight in a way in which, at a certain distance and under "perfect" conditions, such as no wind, bullet drop, etc. the center of the sight, crosshairs, red dot, etc. aims exactly at where the bullet is going to hit. If your bullet hits where your sight says it should, then your gun is zeroed.

But if you want the gun to be zeroed at another distance you have to "re-zero" it and to do this you have to raise or lower the elevation on your rear sight or adjust it in another way. Depends on your gun model...

So zeroing is correct ingame. Case closed, at least for me. Others can call it what they want, even if they call me ignorant lol.

Edited by Curry

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You know what, I'm beginning to agree with Curry, BIS, and some others that the term zeroing is fine (versus elevation adjustment). We do set the zero in its current implementation, even though what we should have done was elevation adjustment if we're getting picky about it. You can't adjust elevation simply by dialing in a distance. You'd operate with MOAs and range cards for different ammo types and mildot terms probably not suited for every gamer out there. And the results of "one click" would be much finer than rezero'ing the rifle for x 100 meters.

So for now I'll accept the term zero'ing, despite being a bit simplified and doesn't take any time to perform, and that it replaces the concept of sight adjustment.

Would I want to go this advanced, with MOAs and range cards? Yes, but in a realism oriented mod, not in vanilla game. The game needs more players instead of scaring them away.

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Let me explain in a bit more detail:

You get a gun that is presumably unadjusted... You take it to the gallery and test it by aiming at the center of the target and shooting, say, five rounds. If you're a good shooter and the gun hasn't been too badly treated, you should get five shots grouped in a small circle somewhere in the target (or outside, depends on how misadjusted the sights are). Still, the smaller the grouping is, the better: If the shots are too spread it's pointless to zero the gun, because what you need is just more practice.

Once you get the good grouping and find where did the shots go respect to the point you were aiming at, it's time to adjust the sight to make those 5 shots hit the center (Treat the crosshairs/sight as the lines defining the coordinates... Your goal is the shots to go to the coordinates X=0, Y=0 -hence calling that adjustment "Zeroing"-)

Normally, this process is made in a gallery by a weapons specialist... I don't know now, but when I served an average soldier was not supposed to touch the sights (they were all iron sights anyway) and had to make the corrections just by putting the target where the shots were going... I.E. if by aiming to the center you got your shots 20cm to the right, you corrected by aiming 20cm to the left, and that way you got your rounds where you wanted them.

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------

Agreed with Gustaffa: If you get that real with the guns, the sights and all that, what BIS will do is scare away a lot of potential players that would rather not get that deep into the game. I am willing to take a good look at the zeroing process, but I might get bored quickly and continue with the on-field corrections. After all, it takes only one shot to know where your "zero" is at a given moment.

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You know what, I'm beginning to agree with Curry, BIS, and some others that the term zeroing is fine (versus elevation adjustment). We do set the zero in its current implementation, even though what we should have done was elevation adjustment if we're getting picky about it. You can't adjust elevation simply by dialing in a distance. You'd operate with MOAs and range cards for different ammo types and mildot terms probably not suited for every gamer out there. And the results of "one click" would be much finer than rezero'ing the rifle for x 100 meters.

So for now I'll accept the term zero'ing, despite being a bit simplified and doesn't take any time to perform, and that it replaces the concept of sight adjustment.

Would I want to go this advanced, with MOAs and range cards? Yes, but in a realism oriented mod, not in vanilla game. The game needs more players instead of scaring them away.

When you think about it, it's the same only in other words. You set the elevation on your sight but at the same time you change the zero point of your shot (actually two points) where you hit dead center. The first time more or less right in front of the muzzle, maybe 30m in front of the muzzle and the second time the bullet crosses the line of sight in 300m distance where you set your zero point with your elevation adjustment.

You can call it ingame "Elevation for 300m" (Setting for your IS or scope) or "Zeroed at 300m" or "Zeroing 300m" there's no difference. Your sight is now zeroed at 300m and you will hit the target with your sights right on it wether you call it Elevation adjustment for 300m now or zeroed at 300m it will remain the same.

<sighs> Is it so hard to differentiate between zeroing and setting the elevation?

When you set another elevation, you change the point of impact which affects the zeroing of the gun. Therefore you change the zeroing of the gun when you change the elevation on the sight.

Setting the elevation = zeroing the gun

You cannot change the elevation on your sight without changing the zeroing of your gun. Zeroing your gun ingame is correct. No need to change that term. You can, but will make no difference.

Changing the elevation on the sight that you can hit dead center at 300m = zeroing at 300m

Edited by Curry

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I have to say, yes I understand that the term is coming from within the game, I understand that and can't wholly blame the patrons of this forum for using the term incorrectly. Additionally, no it does not really matter what word is used. You could call it anything you cared to, and it would not change the fact that the added functionality is (finally) in game, and is useful.

Still all the minor inaccuracies add up, and bring down what is supposed to be the "most realistic battlefield simulator." I could honestly care less if it is fixed or not, since I have learned long ago that these games are all about the gameplay, and less about graphics and nomenclature accuracy.

However its pretty annoying to be told by a civilian what it means to zero a weapon, when that individual has no idea what hes talking about. Nonetheless have that individual spout wrong information on a board frequented by current and former military personnel, and continue to do so after being corrected several times.

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I have to say, yes I understand that the term is coming from within the game, I understand that and can't wholly blame the patrons of this forum for using the term incorrectly. Additionally, no it does not really matter what word is used. You could call it anything you cared to, and it would not change the fact that the added functionality is (finally) in game, and is useful.

Still all the minor inaccuracies add up, and bring down what is supposed to be the "most realistic battlefield simulator." I could honestly care less if it is fixed or not, since I have learned long ago that these games are all about the gameplay, and less about graphics and nomenclature accuracy.

However its pretty annoying to be told by a civilian what it means to zero a weapon, when that individual has no idea what hes talking about. Nonetheless have that individual spout wrong information on a board frequented by current and former military personnel, and continue to do so after being corrected several times.

Right, if you make elevation adjustments you change the zeroing. Some army guys already told me things their instructor teached them which were completely wrong...

Just because you're in the army doesn't make you a "pro". A lot of civilians who have years of expierence with firearms know in fact a lot more than the normal army guy...

Yes, you are sighting in your rifle or zeroing it in on a shooting range or elsewhere, but as soon as you touch your optics or IS again you change the zeroing again and you can call it zeroing or "elevation adjustment" or "windage adjustment" depends on what you need. You make these adjustments and the result is a different zero position. So you can call it zeroing or adjustments for windage or elevation.

I don't know why it is that hard to understand, maybe the Army tries so hard on brainwashing the people to killing machines that they just lose their common sense, I don't know, really. :D

I will leave you "pros" alone now. But I'll repeat one last time: It will make no difference if you call Zeroing in ArmA "Adjusting Elevation" or "Zeroing" or "Re-Zeroing".

Edited by Curry

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Well all realism logistics aside, anyone who has played Defta Force 2, can tell you it FEELS alot cooler to HAVE to manually adjust for elevation on the fly for targets engaging you at differing distances away from you.

As apposed to 1 setting on the ACOGS as we see it now. 1 setting feels more like Quaking imho. Player adjustable like we have it on the Sniper weaps now, would add to the immersion factor big time. Less point n clicky too.

End of the world deal breaker? No. But if someone mods this in, I am gonna grab it for sure. And seeing it finally added to the Sniper Class, but NOT the Rifleman Class looks like lazy coding to me.

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Zeroing = Setting the sights to hit a target at a predefined range when aiming at a target at that range. Only done once in the shooting range and never in combat.

Sight/elevation adjustment = Changing something in your sight that adjusts for different range, so that assuming your weapon was already zeroed properly to the predefined range, it will hit the new range at which your target is at. Only some sights (generally on sniper/DMR weapons and usually on 10X scopes) have this kind of feature. For iron sights/aimpoints/acogs you just aim higher/lower based on how different the actual target range is from the range to which you zeroed your weapon.

Many people mix the 2 terms, so just because someone named the term wrong doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to understand what he's trying to say ;)

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Right, if you make elevation adjustments you change the zeroing. Some army guys already told me things their instructor teached them which were completely wrong...

Just because you're in the army doesn't make you a "pro". A lot of civilians who have years of expierence with firearms know in fact a lot more than the normal army guy...

Yes, you are sighting in your rifle or zeroing it in on a shooting range or elsewhere, but as soon as you touch your optics or IS again you change the zeroing again and you can call it zeroing or "elevation adjustment" or "windage adjustment" depends on what you need. You make these adjustments and the result is a different zero position. So you can call it zeroing or adjustments for windage or elevation.

I don't know why it is that hard to understand, maybe the Army tries so hard on brainwashing the people to killing machines that they just lose their common sense, I don't know, really. :D

I will leave you "pros" alone now. But I'll repeat one last time: It will make no difference if you call Zeroing in ArmA "Adjusting Elevation" or "Zeroing" or "Re-Zeroing".

The post above me spells it out pretty well. Say what you will but in the US Army zero and elevation/range are two entirely different things. Since we're simulating the US Army, getting these terms right should matter. I'll admit I haven't played with guns with civilians, it's always my Army buddies, but I've never heard of adjusting a range control as zeroing a weapon. It's entirely different. Here's the M16/M4 iron sights for example:

img100.jpg

OK, so here's what's going on. That top knob is to adjust the rear sight left to right. This is done while zeroing and wouldn't be touched in the field (unless you really wana throw your shots off when the wind goes down). The wheel under that (set to 'z' for zero in the picture) is the range/elevation control. This is not used during zeroing (despite what some idiot tried to tell me) but is used in the field. Rather than use this control the front sight post of the weapon is raised and lowered to make up and down adjustments while zeroing. The 'z' indicates the weapon is set to be zeroed at 25m. Basically it allows you to shoot targets at 25m and be set to hit targets at 300m-800m IIRC. I don't know, I never went past '3' but you'd set the sight to that '8/3' mark (800m/300m) after zeroing so that when you went to the range to qualify you'd hit your targets. If you kept it on 'z' then your shot elevation would be wrong and you'd miss, much like if you had set the control to '4' or '5'.

In any case my point, and the point of others, is that zero and range/elevation adjustments mean two entirely different things in the US Army. If I told someone in the field to zero their weapon to 400m they'd ask why I'm having them zero their weapon in the middle of a fire fight. What I need to say is adjust range to 400m. That's going to get them to roll that wheel to '4' and return fire rather than sit there looking dumbfounded and wondering how to zero their rifle to 400m. It's just like how the Army tells people not to call a rifle a gun. They have different meanings. Civilian side you can call anything a gun, or weapon, hell you can call it a rubber duck and it does't matter. However in the Army if you yell back to your squad and say "get that gun up here" you're not looking for rifles or pistols, you're looking for a machine gun. The military teaches people to be very specific on these terms because the last thing you want is miscommunication under pressure.

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@Shataan: That's just crazy. As have already been said here, the ACOG have a builtin BDC in the scope - thats the whole idea behind that reticle. If you were to readjust an ACOG to a different zero, the whole BDC thing falls apart.

Only some sights (generally on sniper/DMR weapons and usually on 10X scopes) have this kind of feature. For iron sights/aimpoints/acogs you just aim higher/lower based on how different the actual target range is from the range to which you zeroed your weapon.

Many iron sights have selectable peep holes. Most ACOGs (not familiar with all the reticle variants though) show a BDC in the reticle, making it an instant thing to do. Same thing can be said about the ELCAN sights for SAW/MG - instant distance measuring and BDC, not unlike the russian PSO scope. For 5.56 based aimpoints (and iron sights), it doesn't have a purpose due to the flat trajectory (stated earlier in this thread, but I have no clue about that).

The problem with a builtin BDC, is that it cannot be adjusted for environmental conditions, bullet weight, ammo type, or other things that influences a bullets trajectory. That is where mildot sights shines, even though distance estimations are harder (but more satisfactory) to do, and "those other factors" aren't reflected in the game for fairly obvious reasons.

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Well all realism logistics aside, anyone who has played Defta Force 2, can tell you it FEELS alot cooler to HAVE to manually adjust for elevation on the fly for targets engaging you at differing distances away from you.

As apposed to 1 setting on the ACOGS as we see it now. 1 setting feels more like Quaking imho. Player adjustable like we have it on the Sniper weaps now, would add to the immersion factor big time. Less point n clicky too.

End of the world deal breaker? No. But if someone mods this in, I am gonna grab it for sure. And seeing it finally added to the Sniper Class, but NOT the Rifleman Class looks like lazy coding to me.

Try these:

M110

SPR

M14 DMR.

The DMR and SPR should have an adjustable leupold scope..

@all: Real men use irons, in video games ofcourse :D .

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