ARMA 2 (OA) : DLC discussion thread

[walker 0]

Hi DM

Sorry but I disagree with you.

I see no problem with BIS rewarding those MOD teams that make good content.

You own post where you say

If any of what you said were true, we wouldnt have 235363263256235 M16/M4 packs, we wouldnt have the dozens of USMC and US Army soldier addons, hell we wouldnt have much.

Is an example of the diversity and consequently the divisions in the community that MODs create; that is the conflict inherent in MODing.

Think about it, BI is only going to be able to sell you British units once, they're only going to be able to sell you German units once, French units once, and so on and so on. This means they have to choose from the different groups of people making those things. They have to choose one setof mod makers for their British content, they have to choose one set of mod makers for their German content and so on. That means a lot of people, who may well be deserving of being paid for their work, can not be, because BI cant sell you 3 versions of the same British/German/French/Italian/whatever content.

Actually this happens any way as under the current DLC proposal; it is just that BIS automatically choose the BIS version of the modification sometimes taking on a mod members to work for them and sometimes just doing their own version without any link to the work of others and leaving them feeling cheated.

DM You do realise the DLC proposal as it exists alters the balance of MOD making don't you?

The DLC proposal as it exists creates the situation you fear for both MOD team A and MOD team B. So nobody wins in that case. In my alternate proposal I fully accept that there will be wining teams and none winning teams in making MODs; that is no different than what exist now and in fact my proposal redresses the balance.

And I hate to point out but just because it was made by BIS does not make it good. Allowing BIS to correct its deficiencies by incorporating good content is only to BIS and the communities combined best interest.

Providing encouragement to the MOD teams with both official recognition and some cash reward is I think a good thing that will act as a positive motivator to quality rather than quantity.

Kind Regards walker

[hamm 10]

Knives and paying modders money

I think paying modders on a regular basis is a horrible idea, they can just be considered as developers then. They wouldn't make what they want, or what the community needs, just what would make the most profit, and it wouldn't even be considered a mod anymore, since BIS would sell it. How is this any good?

Is an example of the diversity and consequently the divisions in the community that MODs create; that is the conflict inherent in MODing.

Also you're saying variety in mods is a bad thing? So what if there's 6 or 7 M16/M4 packs? Having everything standardised would kill off modding.

Hell, what would stop BIS from killing off modding entirely except for these quality teams they can pay money to, so that no one uses the inferior mods and not have to pay cash?

The DLC proposal as it exists creates the situation you fear for both MOD team A and MOD team B. So nobody wins in that case. In my alternate proposal I fully accept that there will be wining teams and none winning teams in making MODs; that is no different than what exist now and in fact my proposal redresses the balance.

No, it does not create the situation he fears. So far the only idea we have about the DLC is that it might be the British army, which is severely underrepresented in the ArmA2 mod community. I don't see BIS coming out with a German Forces mod when there's already the Bundeswehr mod. Honestly these wild suggestions are completely pointless until we know the nature of the DLC and how it will be protected. So far the only thing we know is that there will be free and paid DLC. Hell, the DLC might even be a single-player campaign and not even affect the multiplayer community.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Hamm

[jw custom 56]

In my alternate proposal I fully accept that there will be wining teams and none winning teams in making MODs; that is no different than what exist now and in fact my proposal redresses the balance.

Talk about splitting the community :eek:

As it is now a lot of mods uses/borrow stuff from each other(with permission), if we were talking money that picture would change. Things would not be as open as it is now.

[walker 0]

This post from Hamm

...

Had this fake quote into it

Knives and paying modders money

Hi Hamm

It is the height of bad manners to purposefully miss quote some one to make your point.

I have not said variety is a bad thing, in fact I pointed out the current BIS DLC proposal will decrease variety by overwhelming the the work of both DM's MOD team A and MOD team B example with the BIS "Official DLC label" inherent in the current proposal.

My proposal if you have read it

Hi all

An open letter to Marek

Dear Marek

Part of the problem here is that there is no gradation.

The business plan creates a dichotomy and conflict between the interests of Mod teams who in this model provide DLC for free and BIS who will/must provide content for a cost as in this case it is peoples jobs. People at BIS have to work and get paid for what they do just the same as anyone on these forums.

I think the whole thing would be received a lot better in the community if BIS found a way of integrating MOD teams work into the DLC rewards scheme. Then this would be seen as a way of rewarding the communities MOD teams who make the best content of any modding community while making their content official and thus BIS certifying it.

Acting as a certification process it would allow BIS to quality audit those products for DLC.

It would cut BIS's cost of production of DLC and allow its developers to work on the knottier problems of DLC and core engine improvement and get paid for them in with official MOD certified content.

It can also formalize the recruiting process for BIS to take on the members of MOD teams, something it already does but in a bit of a hotchpotch way. It would also cause MOD teams to switch to ArmA as their work would have the potential of being officially recognised and paid for thus delineating ArmA from other products. It would also encourage more people to MOD ArmA as there would be seen to be both the Kudos of BIS certification, income and a possible job with BIS at the end of it.

As the products would be BIS certified; this would also negate the point about people not downloading the best MODs and thus having problems being blocked from servers.

So I have a question to Marek I will PM/send him the link to this post:

Will BIS provide a route for those who make good enough community content to profit from it as DLC?

Kind Regards walker

Makes it clear that under my proposal DLC would act as a gradation of levels of content and integrate the MOD teams into the DLC proposal rather than exclude them; as is inherent in the current proposal.

I think we are all in agreement that BIS should be rewarded for their work, why then not reward the better content of the modding community in the same way?

Kind Regards walker

[hamm 10]

This post from Hamm

Had this fake quote into it

Hi Hamm

It is the height of bad manners to purposefully miss quote some one to make your point.

That's not a fake quote...that's me summarising your proposal so as to not quote the whole damn thing, but enabling you to understand what I am responding to. :rolleyes:

Makes it clear that under my proposal DLC would act as a gradation of levels of content and integrate the MOD teams into the DLC proposal rather than exclude them; as is inherent in the current proposal.

I think we are all in agreement that BIS should be rewarded for their work, why then not reward the better content of the modding community in the same way?

Because it will no longer become a mod community. Check the last three posts by DM, me, and JWCustom.

[Schancky 10]

it will no longer become a mod community. Check the last three posts by DM, me, and JWCustom.

True. It will just become a players community because all the mods will then come through BIS. Let the modders carry on as usual, and let BIS develop their own things.

[Deadfast 43]

Walker, imagine you are working on a project. Let's say you are building a mission. But there is this silly little problem which you unfortunately have no idea how to solve.

You try to search for an answer but that yields no results.

The next logical step is to ask for help from the fellow forum users. You write a well-structured post describing your problem.

You check back later that day but there are no replies. It seems everybody is just too busy keeping up-to-date with that 100+ pages long argument over whether Jack's WWII Modification should have gotten this months donation instead of 1968 - The War In Hell.

Ah, well, you'll check again tomorrow.

Sadly there is still no answer. This time everyone's focus has shifted to the lawsuit submitted by Albert Richardson over the inclusion of some of his rain sounds in the BIS-endorsed Reality Warfare Sound Modification.

Maybe tomorrow...

[walker 0]

Hi hamm

If you are sumnarising someone do so in your own words or quote them properly but do not miss quote. If you wish to link to what you summarise, by all means do so, but do not ascribe words to others they did not not write.

As I pointed out the concept DLC changes the balance between the modding community and BIS.

Or as Schancky

True. It will just become a players community because all the mods will then come through BIS. Let the modders carry on as usual, and let BIS develop their own things.

Quoted in full; with my use of bold, to emphasize my interpreation of what Schancky is saying

My proposal seeks to redress that balance.

Kind Regards walker

Edit

Hi Deadfast

I do not understand what you are trying to say in your post.

Kind Regards walker

Edited June 12, 2010 by walker

[NoRailgunner 0]

walker you know that money might break any friendship?

Making things for profit is fully different than making them "only" for your own (+ others) satisfaction and happiness.

And why BIS should spend time to "certificate addons/mods" while primarily they are fixing, improving and optimizing their own game?

Do you even know why people do work for money and why people do like to create something without a monetary reward? Or is this beyond your armchair theories?

[Tonci87 163]

Walker I also don´t think that this si a good Idea, it has the potential for really great trouble....

[hamm 10]

Hi hamm

If you are sumnarising someone do so in your own words or quote them properly but do not miss quote. If you wish to link to what you summarise is by all means do so but do not ascribe words to others they did not not write.

As I pointed out the concept DLC changes the balance between the modding community and BIS.

My proposal seeks to redress the balance.

Kind Regards walker

What exactly did I misquote in my summary "Knives and paying modders money" though? Isn't that what you're suggesting, that the DLC idea will kill the connection, and that they should be paying certain modders money? I don't see why you're so offended as to go off-topic. Sorry, I'll never summarize your quotes again.

And as has been pointed out, the concept of DLC is not fleshed out and no one has any idea what it's gonna be like except BIS. You're basing your suggestion off a future event that is unknown to everyone here except the developers. We all do know however what the reprecussions of regularly buying certain mods and reselling them are.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Hamm

[walker 0]

Hi Hamm

Thank you. :)

...And as has been pointed out, the concept of DLC is not fleshed out and no one has any idea what it's gonna be like except BIS. You're basing your suggestion off a future event that is unknown to everyone here except the developers. We all do know however what the reprecussions of regularly buying certain mods and reselling them are.

I agree the DLC is not fleshed out. That is I think BIS's point in making this a sticky thread so that the opinions of the community are aired and so that it is consulted on the proposal and what it would like to see in it.

The purpose of this thread is to seek those opinions and for us as a community to flesh it out and make observations, proposals and suggestions.

Kind Regards walker

[-=seany=- 5]

I don't think I like the idea.

If they want more money then release more expansion packs like OA. I will buy them.

I don't want to go online and see some new domination mission (or whatever) has become really popular and if I want to play it I have to go and buy some Addon.

Its hard enough already to keep all players on the same page with the free mods we have now. E.g. the community is split now with various mods; Ace, various islands, extra vehicle mods etc (which is not a bad thing BTW!). But it should not be split due to financial reasons. Or because of a lot of varied DLC scattered across lots of missions that are inaccessible unless you go and by a load of DLC packs.

I guess I could be open to change my mind depending on what they intend to release. But so far, there is talk of an DLC for British units? That is pretty much exactly the kind of thing I had in mind with my previous statement about lots of small DLC splitting the community.

Also, who is going to make missions for these addons? Will they come with missions? If they do they probably wont be popular, so it will mean that the DLC gets integrated into already existing community made missions which force fans of those missions to have to buy stuff they would rather not.

I am trying to think of what content I would be happy to pay for. I know it would have to be very, very high quality. If it was a tank or vehicle pack for example, I would expect fully detailed interiors and animated extras and high quality custom sound for each vehicle..for a start.

I guess I would be happy to pay for an island, or an entire faction. Eg if this British pack came with Challenger tanks, Lynx helos, common infantry waepons, Warrior apc, etc then maybe I would be interested. But if its just some skinned soldiers and a couple of guns- forget about it, leave it to the modders.

I will be supporting the modders more than this DLC, unless they have some radical way of working it that doesn't cause community divides. I am curious as to how the modders feel about this move, do they feel threatened? I'm sure BIS would never shoot the people who made there game so popular.

/disjointed ramblings

Edited June 12, 2010 by -=seany=-

[andersson 285]

I will pay for a good DLC no problem. I dont think BIS will charge for any small petty things or bugfixes.

Another reason I will pay BIS for any DLC they release is to support them.

I payed normal game price for OFP and resistance. I also payed normal price for Arma and less for QG. Thats less then 4 games in price and it kept me busy for 8 years. Then I bought arma2 for normal price and will but OA for ~30€. Arma2 has kept me busy and the combo arma2+OA will keep me happy and playing for countless of hours.

During this time BIS is giving me updates and support for free. The amount of joy and fun I get out of the few € I payed BIS (I wonder how cheap its been by the hour...?) it feels right to be able to support them financially without buying more copies of the same game for no gain for me. If I have to pay for a good DLC its a mutual support; BIS get money so they can pay their bills and get motivation and I get quality units.

[mattxr 9]

Everytime walker comes into a thread it gets out of hand.. seriously!! :(

[ebanks129 10]

I will pay for a good DLC no problem. I dont think BIS will charge for any small petty things or bugfixes.

Another reason I will pay BIS for any DLC they release is to support them.

I payed normal game price for OFP and resistance. I also payed normal price for Arma and less for QG. Thats less then 4 games in price and it kept me busy for 8 years. Then I bought arma2 for normal price and will but OA for ~30€. Arma2 has kept me busy and the combo arma2+OA will keep me happy and playing for countless of hours.

During this time BIS is giving me updates and support for free. The amount of joy and fun I get out of the few € I payed BIS (I wonder how cheap its been by the hour...?) it feels right to be able to support them financially without buying more copies of the same game for no gain for me. If I have to pay for a good DLC its a mutual support; BIS get money so they can pay their bills and get motivation and I get quality units.

Yes! so whats the big problem with everything else? Gaahhd..24 pages on things we dont even know yet.

Anyways...

Terrain packs would be cool for DLC(and i mean real locations but ficitional names like they've done with chernarus, maybe with units to go with the terrains..so pretty much expansion packs):p

I want to know what other people would like to see made by BIS just to see what everyone else thinks they should give a go at.

[-=seany=- 5]

I will pay for a good DLC no problem. I dont think BIS will charge for any small petty things or bugfixes.

Another reason I will pay BIS for any DLC they release is to support them.

I payed normal game price for OFP and resistance. I also payed normal price for Arma and less for QG. Thats less then 4 games in price and it kept me busy for 8 years. Then I bought arma2 for normal price and will but OA for ~30€. Arma2 has kept me busy and the combo arma2+OA will keep me happy and playing for countless of hours.

During this time BIS is giving me updates and support for free. The amount of joy and fun I get out of the few € I payed BIS (I wonder how cheap its been by the hour...?) it feels right to be able to support them financially without buying more copies of the same game for no gain for me. If I have to pay for a good DLC its a mutual support; BIS get money so they can pay their bills and get motivation and I get quality units.

Don't feel like you have to give them or owe them money. If they where so poor they wouldn't have been able to release Arma2, let alone work on an expansion. Don't let the bleeding heart, poor developers mentality become an issue or an ideal here. We have no idea how "well off" they are. The pay once business model has worked very well for game developers for decades.

I and many others don't want every game dev on the planet to start going down the paid DLC route (even though its probably too late already).

It is a double edged sword, on the one hand, yes we get more content but on the other we don't want developers and publishers to think it is their right to charge the hell out of gamers for everything. And end up skimping on the initial product so that they can charge for content later. Or just releasing things for the sake of it, "some one will buy it, and if it becomes popular, everyone will have to"

I should point out that my reply to your post is not a direct attack on you Andersson, or an attack at all for that matter :). It's just your post shares the thoughts of a few others.

Edited June 12, 2010 by -=seany=-

[mrcash2009 0]

Certainly has a double edge to it, that I can agree on too.

[nodunit 397]

Well..nobody says we HAVE to buy it if we don't want it, there is no rule entailing that we absolutely must, and we don't know what system would be utilized..what the DLC entails (though it's probably pretty obvious) and so on..given the mentality many people have towards paying for things it's not too likely we'd see much DLC on multiplayer..remember the community is not the whole of multiplayer.

Also no to paying community for DLC what kind of madman are you, do you have any idea how many people would be stabbing one another in the back, it's one of those ideas that 'sounds' good at first... Oh sure we can give more incentive to work on modding but that kind of destroys the hobby purpose... think of the nightmare for full fledged mods, and even moreso people taking the work of others, rehashing it and re-selling it.

One of those ideas that sounds good at first but when you think about it has a very VERY ugly big picture.

Edited June 12, 2010 by NodUnit

[andersson 285]

Didnt take it personally, but thank you for the heads up :)

But dont mistake me for a bleeding heart when it comes to BIS, it seems like they are doing good :). I just think that what BIS has done and are doing is so good so I want to show my appreciation and support. I'm doing that by buying their products, not by giving them money for free.

I understand that BIS is looking at paid DLC. Why would they bother producing any additions for free (Im not talking about bugfixes and engine improvements)? Afterall BIS is a company and they are looking for profit.

I really doubt BIS will release something because "someone will buy it". I really hope they will not, if they do they will slowly loose the community and that is a big loss for them. Then I doubt that will happen from BIS actions so far, they seem to genuinly care about their products.

[Dead3yez 0]

Oh jesus h christ. Not this shit again...

To the people crying about it fragmenting the community: What... utter... bullshit... Seriously, complaining about payed DLC fragmenting the community is just a very thin veil pulled over your greedy selfishness. All you want is for it all to be free so that you can get more toys to play with.

Queen's Gambit.

Just to make this clear for myself. I will be buying the content. But, also I don't want to be disappointed that I might not be able to use it often as I'd like, as was the case with QG. Personally I play multiplayer the most, there really will be no reason - other than to support BIS - for me to buy paid DLC other than to mess around with them for a few minutes with a quick mission in the editor.

I think all vanilla content produced by BIS (including hired modders) should be accessible to everyone. I was under the impression that this would be the case since OA is infact a 'standalone' expansion, ruling out any implications which maybe have been brought, as like QG.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Dead3yez

[mattxr 9]

All the people who had bought Queen's Gambit enjoyed it, it was only the ones who didnt buy it complained. Will just be the same again!

Dont like it, dont buy it and dont complain about it!

[whisper 0]

Don't feel like you have to give them or owe them money. If they where so poor they wouldn't have been able to release Arma2, let alone work on an expansion. Don't let the bleeding heart, poor developers mentality become an issue or an ideal here. We have no idea how "well off" they are. The pay once business model has worked very well for game developers for decades.

Aww, yeah, the distribution mess they have at each release is a clear indicator everything is fine for them.

Them stating explicitely that they're going along the paid DLC route BECAUSE they can't continue delivering for free must be them lying, mmh?

[mattxr 9]

Aww, yeah, the distribution mess they have at each release is a clear indicator everything is fine for them.

Them stating explicitely that they're going along the paid DLC route BECAUSE they can't continue delivering for free must be them lying, mmh?

they said Paid AND free DLC will be released

[r3volution 0]

All the people who had bought Queen's Gambit enjoyed it, it was only the ones who didnt buy it complained. Will just be the same again!

Dont like it, dont buy it and dont complain about it!

Congratulations, this was the 10,000,000,000,000th massive generalisation on the internet!!! I'm sure you win a youtube video of a bouncing kitty or something... ;)

Honestly, I think QG was the only BIS product I bought, and went 'meh'. As far as I recall the only time that was useful for me personally was as additional fodder for the modding community, who managed to use the units and so forth to make some excellent content. I would personally expect a higher standard from BIS DLC in the future. I'm used to the attempts of other game companies (looking at Bethesda and TES: Oblivion here) to nickel and dime users with pathetic DLC which has no value relative to the price placed on it. If a whole game costs 50 dollars, why is a horse suddenly worth 5? So when compared to the cost and content contained in the original game, the DLC content should be comparatively/equally priced or it's just gouging the community.

That said, if the British DLC includes some serious content and is reasonably priced I would pay for it. This goes against my usual principle which is to wait until the 'Gold' edition of a game is out and just buy it with all the DLC included, and the only reason I'd do that is because its Bohemia Interactive, and I do want (despite my abject distaste for the whole DLC thing) to support them.

Mind you Bohemia, lets get this straight, if we all buy this DLC we do expect the money to be pumped straight into some serious re-coding of the engine for Arma 3.. right? But you can buy a couple of treats for yourselves, just no gold-plated rolls royce... ;)