[Patch 1.05 Bug] AI won't follow player

[fabrizio_t 58]

Don't know if it's just me ... plz anybody give it a try.

Bug: AI units refuse to follow player (leader) while in combat mode.

Repro:

http://www.2shared.com/file/10261551/ebdfb71d/AI_follow_bugutes.html

How to reproduce:

• Load mission
  
• hit F2 / 7 / 2 to make your buddy enter COMBAT mode
  
• Move around and see buddy not following you
  
• hit F2 / 1 / 1 and see buddy ignoring fall into formation order
  

EDIT: Tried old beta 61974, 61450, 61062, same problem, but maybe we can't roll back completely to 1.04.

Can anybody check out the attached mission ? Thx.

Quoting myself just to add some info.

I tried more beta interim beta builds (60819, 60588) on a clean install and both showed the same problem.

The problem did not exist in v. 1.04, which worked fine.

So it's a 1.05 beta / 1.05 exclusive problem.

I posted this issue onto the bugtracker, please support here:

http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/7604

Edited January 1, 2010 by fabrizio_T

[Bulldogs 10]

Yep, this problem started in the late beta's. Basically the AI go into combat mode and even if you tell them it's safe they still refuse to go out of combat mode and refuse to follow you.

It was introduced with the AI improvements as a side effect. The AI became very effective and could now survive on their own without being told what to do, the side effect being that's it's become very difficult to tell them what to do.

[tj72 0]

I can confirm that the AI infantry in combat mode now fail to follow orders in an acceptable way.

Im working on an ammo runner script and this problem causes my units who are supposed to be carrying clips to another unit become frozen in place. If they are not near enemies then they behave predictably. If enemies are removed from their area they seem to recover ok.

I notice if the units have a hard Waypoint then they continue to move along despite combat mode or enemies close by. Thats great since the waypoint counts for a whole group and not per unit.

So the scripted per unit movement of a squad in ARMA2 has now been seriously compromised if not destroyed.

These scripting commands appear to be nullified by this new feature of the game.

domove

moveto

assignascargo/ordergetin

(tried with disableAI "target" and "autotarget" setcombatmode "BLUE" setbehaviour "Careless" and "Safe"

If the unit receives these commands in combat mode with enemy nearby they are ignored. This is repeatable in almost every test I ran. Very solid performance on this great new "feature".

I just have to stop here to take a moment to complain about this pattern in the BIS game AI since OFP.

My complaint is how much extra work the default AI behaviour creates for anyone who wants to mod the AI in the game or try to work with the AI so that it behaves in a predictable reliable fashion. Basically anyone who wants to work with the games AI in any way is affected by this.

The conclusion I have reached after trying to work with the BIS AI since OFP is that you cant count on the AI, for anything.

You cant count on them to do even the most basic simple things without extreme redundancy added with script or mod to ensure that they complete their tasks if they still have a virtual pulse (i.e. not dead).

You cant count on the AI to spot targets how you will need, to navigate tight city streets without making 10 point turns if not stuck. You cant count on the planes dropping bombs when needed or not diving too low when they do bomb. So low that they either get shot down or crash because you cant count on them to notice the giant mountain in their flight plath quickly enough.

This is something that effectively ruins the idea of an AI unit focused on anything else than killing an enemy and saving his own ass.

With this, we cant have AI medics and ammo runners or engineers running through a hot warzone on thier way to do things other than killing an enemy. The medic cant deliver his morphine or revive action, the ammo runner cant deliver the clip to the MG nest on point and the engineer cant repair the vehicle or rebuild the structure or set mines on a bridge. We cant have them because if they detect enemy units they will freeze and fail to carry out their VITAL mission and we cant count on them.

Its not the first time either. Its all just getting the stupid AI unit to not care about anything else for a second so it can just act predictably. Every script I make has at least half of it devoted to that dreary thankless job when BIS could eliminate this pain if they just altered their approach somewhat.

If the AI would stop trying to do its own things when it has a clear order to do something it would be alot better. If we had more commands to disable/enable all the default AI actions we would be alot better off. Its ok for AI to self preserve if they are idle but if they have direct user based orders that should take precedence. If anything they could slow down and act differently, but not shut down altogether. BIS, please take this into account when you are designing AI and the scripting commands that control them.

I find the BIS AI good for many things and I still rely on and appreciate it for that, honest. But when I want to enhance the game and often I need to controll the AI I would rather have the AI turn into complete dummies so that they would walk right in front of a pillbox if I told them to than rely on the default methods. Once I am done directing them they can go back to their default modes. As it is now I feel locked out of the AI at almost every turn. I cant be the only one.

If they have some new self preservation mode then I wish we had a way to disable and enable it by script just so I dont have to fight the AI at every step and spend so much time testing it and writing code to ensure it acts how I want. Im not talking about making them do backflips either. I just want my ammo team to run from the truck to the "customer" even if their are bullets flying around! Is that such a tall order?!

BIS, please stop messing me up with your wierd AI design! Youre killing me.

[fabrizio_t 58]

BIS, please stop messing me up with your wierd AI design! Youre killing me.

I understand your frustration, but i think this kind of AI behaviour is the result of some bug and not a "design" choice, so i'm confident it will be fixed soon.

[st!gar 3]

I can confirm that the AI infantry in combat mode now fail to follow orders in an acceptable way.

Im working on an ammo runner script and this problem causes my units who are supposed to be carrying clips to another unit become frozen in place. If they are not near enemies then they behave predictably. If enemies are removed from their area they seem to recover ok.

I notice if the units have a hard Waypoint then they continue to move along despite combat mode or enemies close by. Thats great since the waypoint counts for a whole group and not per unit.

So the scripted per unit movement of a squad in ARMA2 has now been seriously compromised if not destroyed.

These scripting commands appear to be nullified by this new feature of the game.

domove

moveto

assignascargo/ordergetin

(tried with disableAI "target" and "autotarget" setcombatmode "BLUE" setbehaviour "Careless" and "Safe"

If the unit receives these commands in combat mode with enemy nearby they are ignored. This is repeatable in almost every test I ran. Very solid performance on this great new "feature".

I just have to stop here to take a moment to complain about this pattern in the BIS game AI since OFP.

My complaint is how much extra work the default AI behaviour creates for anyone who wants to mod the AI in the game or try to work with the AI so that it behaves in a predictable reliable fashion. Basically anyone who wants to work with the games AI in any way is affected by this.

The conclusion I have reached after trying to work with the BIS AI since OFP is that you cant count on the AI, for anything.

You cant count on them to do even the most basic simple things without extreme redundancy added with script or mod to ensure that they complete their tasks if they still have a virtual pulse (i.e. not dead).

You cant count on the AI to spot targets how you will need, to navigate tight city streets without making 10 point turns if not stuck. You cant count on the planes dropping bombs when needed or not diving too low when they do bomb. So low that they either get shot down or crash because you cant count on them to notice the giant mountain in their flight plath quickly enough.

This is something that effectively ruins the idea of an AI unit focused on anything else than killing an enemy and saving his own ass.

With this, we cant have AI medics and ammo runners or engineers running through a hot warzone on thier way to do things other than killing an enemy. The medic cant deliver his morphine or revive action, the ammo runner cant deliver the clip to the MG nest on point and the engineer cant repair the vehicle or rebuild the structure or set mines on a bridge. We cant have them because if they detect enemy units they will freeze and fail to carry out their VITAL mission and we cant count on them.

Its not the first time either. Its all just getting the stupid AI unit to not care about anything else for a second so it can just act predictably. Every script I make has at least half of it devoted to that dreary thankless job when BIS could eliminate this pain if they just altered their approach somewhat.

If the AI would stop trying to do its own things when it has a clear order to do something it would be alot better. If we had more commands to disable/enable all the default AI actions we would be alot better off. Its ok for AI to self preserve if they are idle but if they have direct user based orders that should take precedence. If anything they could slow down and act differently, but not shut down altogether. BIS, please take this into account when you are designing AI and the scripting commands that control them.

I find the BIS AI good for many things and I still rely on and appreciate it for that, honest. But when I want to enhance the game and often I need to controll the AI I would rather have the AI turn into complete dummies so that they would walk right in front of a pillbox if I told them to than rely on the default methods. Once I am done directing them they can go back to their default modes. As it is now I feel locked out of the AI at almost every turn. I cant be the only one.

If they have some new self preservation mode then I wish we had a way to disable and enable it by script just so I dont have to fight the AI at every step and spend so much time testing it and writing code to ensure it acts how I want. Im not talking about making them do backflips either. I just want my ammo team to run from the truck to the "customer" even if their are bullets flying around! Is that such a tall order?!

BIS, please stop messing me up with your wierd AI design! Youre killing me.

:love: ...Thank you. Just... fucking thank you. That has got to be the single best post I've read on this forum in at least the last six months. You perfectly summed up every thought I have had on the AI since OFP.

Honestly, BIS needs to read this. That was just perfect.

[Graw2Pro 10]

Will this be fixed

I wonder if BIS will fix this - its really getting in the way of my CTI games.

There is not point of using AI in a squad because when the action starts they will likely be found between 200 and 500m behind you, obstinately facing the wrong direction.

If the model aims is to show infantry stress under fire then the AI should say something to that effect to show its not just a bug. I.e.

"copy that, boarding vehicle but I m gonna take like 5 or 10 minutes to do it because I m having a strop", or something like that....

How to fix it

The easiest way to fix all this is for human players' direct commands to take precedence over all AI algorithms.

Surely it would be simple to do a patch where a repeat instruction (for example "move to" or "board that") would take precedence over the AI's "reasoning" algorithm.

The drawback to that would be a loss of some of the "smart" autonomous AI behaviour when under fire. For example if ambushed while carrying out a move order we may actually want some of this behaviour by the AI rather than blindly continuing to move through the battle zone etc.

New order menu

A good compromise therefore might be having a single new order - such as disengage until task x is complete.

So whether regrouping, moving, boarding or hiding - the AI would focus on doing that task alone as fast as possible and ignoring the combat situation.

One would only use the "complete task" order once it became clear that the standard algorithms had failed.

[GLeek 10]

Yep, this problem started in the late beta's. Basically the AI go into combat mode and even if you tell them it's safe they still refuse to go out of combat mode and refuse to follow you.

It was introduced with the AI improvements as a side effect. The AI became very effective and could now survive on their own without being told what to do, the side effect being that's it's become very difficult to tell them what to do.

the pb is , AI walk backward , clueless, brainless, and totally ruin my domi experience.

BI need to adresse this BUG A.S.A.P

[st!gar 3]

New order menu

A good compromise therefore might be having a single new order - such as disengage until task x is complete.

So whether regrouping, moving, boarding or hiding - the AI would focus on doing that task alone as fast as possible and ignoring the combat situation.

One would only use the "complete task" order once it became clear that the standard algorithms had failed.

That sounds pretty cool.

[11_harley_11 0]

Just to chip in - For me the AI not following is very noticeable and a game breaker since the patch (ACE or no ACE) But even worse, the medics will not help me ever. They will however eventually help AI if I order them to but I can yell all day, standing next to them, behind a building, out of fire, and nothing...It never used to be like that. Please fix it BIS.

[markushaze 10]

I really cant understand.

I am playing different missions, with and without Ace/BIS medic system.

If i am in trouble (wounded) and i call one of my medics, of course he will take a little while to get to you, always scanning for threats.

But isn't that "normal"

Would you, in a hot zone, as medic being called, forget everything around you, and risk your life to save another?

Of course you would, but not by forgetting everything around you, you would also be careful on your way to the injured, you would also try to eliminate the enemy, before your friend dies, or before the bad guy gets you both.

Works fine in JWCustoms Panthera missions for example.

AI follow very well commands, and do as i expect them to.

cipher , another example, works well too, No stuck AI, No refusing to follow Orders.

Of course if you want them to do something quicker, you must give them "safe" order.

Haven't had them stuck in danger, or refusing to stick to formation.

Using ACE and GL4 might be helpful :-)

[NoRailgunner 0]

Solution - bind the devs to their desk and let them play in AI team and let them lead AI at least for 2 hours. Be aware devs might try to escape!! :cool:

[11_harley_11 0]

Hmm I'll have to try GL4. Does Cypher and Panthera use the First aid modules or is it the basic medic stuff?

edit: didn't see you said with and without BIS medic system. But if GL4 fixes what I've stated above, I'm there.

Edited January 7, 2010 by 11_HARLEY_11

[tj72 0]

Im trying to overcome the issue with playmove in my scripts which is not the best solution anyway. It seems playmove has collision where I remember in A1/OFP it did not. That was interesting. I also noticed playmove was not working and the units were moving in place!? Has anyone seen this? If you run a playmove command that is one of the movement anims the unit should move forward not walk in place.

So now Im reduced to having to setpos the unit forward a bit on a loop to force the unit forward. Its an ugly and very sad solution to a problem that I dont think should have been there in the first place.

Some might try to defend or explain this as new AI trait as an ok thing but they are completely ignoring my above post which was as clear as can be. There are plenty of stories about real battles where ammo runners and medics and engineers had to run the gauntlet of enemy fire to reach a vital position to carry out an important order. There is more to combat than just patrolling and shooting! Good soldiers need to follow orders even if they are under fire. Geez, I cant believe I actually had to make that point!

We dont need to debate the merits of this when the drawbacks are so much more prevalent then any benifit we gained from this change to AI. Especially in this thread here. So please spare me the lame explanations devils advocate nonsense. Just PLEASE!

Another test was to temporarily create a group, make a waypoint in script then join a selected unit to the new group and they would begin to move out even if close to enemy. If they reach the end then rejoin original group. This isnt acceptable at all since there is a group limit and this is just a desperate proof of concept anyway. No script should have to spawn a group for each unit just to overcome a silly BUG like this. Also it just proves that the waypoint "layer" has superior influence on the AI over scripted move commands I allready mentioned. The waypoint code does not break when the AI are near enemy at all. It may slow down a bit but it still follows the order as expected. So are we not supposed to use the scripted move commands anymore? Is that the direction we are going? I would like to hear it from BIS if so. Why cant the scripted move commands have EXACTLY the same influence on the AI as a move Waypoint does. Its not consistent and reliable commands but rather spotty and broken commands that may work or may not. You call that a solid platform? This patch seemed to improve alot but this area of it is a complete and utter disaster. Thats just my humble opinion of course.

I guess I will leave my script in this mission of mine. If the unit needs to reload a guy, then domove to that guy. Oh wait hes not moving? Ok in that case set direction to the guy and playmove this animation and repeat the whole thing over (including trying a domove again). Oh wait the playmove animation is not making the unit go forward? Ok then just setpos the unit forward because I like to bust my head through brick walls of pointless AI behaviour for simple shit and Im not giving up. The result is my script looks like either really bad multiplayer lag or a medium level scripters losing battle against an entire development teams code base that seems detirmined to mangle all his AI ideas for the game. At least I got it working and I dont have to wait for BIS to maybe fix this. At this point I expect this problem to remain for a very long time and BIS may never see fit to change this for whatever reasons. I hope I am wrong though.

[Flash Thunder 10]

Don't know if it's just me ... plz anybody give it a try.

Bug: AI units refuse to follow player (leader) while in combat mode.

Yeah im having the same problem here, also finding my guys way behind me when I issued them several times to regroup and advance, you got to manually tell them to disengage the enemy and tell them to stand up and go into safe or aware mode before any movement happens! :mad:

Damn more bugs as a result of these patches im seriously thinking about reinstalling the game and leaving it at 1.02!

[jureidinim 10]

Played it once since the patch and i had the same problem.

If i remember though, once they go "stupid" and ignored my rejoin commands, I could still individually tell them to move to locations. They just would not rejoin a formation with me.

A pain really espescially if you have a large team - hopefully will be fixed soon. I like the suggestion mentioned of giving an override command option. Just make it a toggle so when the bullets start flying you can switch them back to their cautious state.

[froggyluv 2136]

I noticed that this is Assigned to FabrizioT on the bug tracker :confused:

Maybe they hired the man to tighten up the AI ;)

[Flash Thunder 10]

I think the problem is that if they engage hostiles, they wont automatically disengage when the fight is over, that will keep the AI in their current vacinity.

I was messing around with the AI last night go real frusterated, but im pretty sure you got to ALWAYS tell them to disengage before they will do any type of move/regroup command.

Fabrizio did BIS hire you as AI programmer yet? Or at least made you a dev at dev-heaven?

[trickster1982 10]

I was messing around with the AI last night go real frusterated, but im pretty sure you got to ALWAYS tell them to disengage before they will do any type of move/regroup command.

Yeah normally I put them into danger mode as soon as we start taking fire, & leave them in it until the last enemy has been taken down, but before 1.05 I would then put them back into "aware" & they would go back to keeping pace & formation with me & not covering each other to move, but thats not happening now :(

[jw custom 56]

The AI became very effective and could now survive on their own without being told what to do, the side effect being that's it's become very difficult to tell them what to do.

Yet they die because they won't follow leader when he decides it's time to get the hell out of there :o

I was just playing a mission and everything went perfect, we fought our way into a city and destroyed a few targets, then i orded my AI mates to regroup so we could get back to our transport and they did that somewhat ok though it could have been done a lot quicker.On the way back to the vehicle we were under fire but nothing heavy so i kept ordering them to return to formation as they constantly stopped up and fired back. When we finally arrived to the vehicle(only me as the AI were like 50m+ behind) i got in and drove back to pick up the AI just to find out they wouldn't enter the damn vehicle which eventually got me killed..... grrrrr.

Have also bled to death several times because AI medics was busy observing the enemy 100m away behind 10 houses.

I really hope BIS start to work on some beta patches soon so we can get this annoying AI behaviour sorted out :)

[Azzur33 1]

JW, (All)Disengage - Regroup/Move works for me. If they are in combat zone, they'll engage/engage at will, even if leader asks them to fall back. It's sensible. They'll fall back/move/get in effectively if they are told to disengage.

[jw custom 56]

JW, (All)Disengage - Regroup/Move works for me. If they are in combat zone, they'll engage/engage at will, even if leader asks them to fall back. It's sensible. They'll fall back/move/get in effectively if they are told to disengage.

Didn't have much luck with that, they seems to keep engaging. Also when i lie bleeding on the ground i can't control them anyways.

Things worked fine before some beta broke it!

[Azzur33 1]

Hmm, If you are bleeding in the ground(if you are using First Aid - Simulation -module?), you are not in charge anymore. If/when you are healed, you'll take charge again.

I guess this is about retreating-thing, pulling back fast by any means under fire..

I have to experiment this some more. Disengage+move/regroup/get in works fine for getting troops back quite fast, maybe hold fire-command with it even faster (Open fire=Engage at will).

[Mysteryman5150 10]

Is this still being worked on, or has it been left behind?

[froggyluv 2136]

Is this still being worked on, or has it been left behind?

I really hope so. Kind of a critical bug :confused:

[tj72 0]

The ticket was expired. Guess BIS does not view this as an issue at all.