Mid east

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">then I see no point in continuing this conversation.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree. What we agree?!

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 15 2002,01:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 14 2002,23:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 14 2002,00:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 14 2002,00:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well, we could argue israelis/palestinos until we're blue in the face (and we were a couple of times, weren't we), and we would never agree.

the mid east is big, and now, since the president admonished the UN to take itself serious again by saying the UN should demand iraq follow some 27 resolutions hussein so far ignores, let's talk about the possible pax uno (or americana) in the region.

just a fantasy...:

after using afghanistan and several other -stans for decentral mobilization zones, building up forces, america will move on iraq, disabling its military and all wmd-sites permanently.

hussein will move underground and fade into irrelevancy. (capture is nary impossible.)

an iraqi general who went awol during the gulf war and lived in the US since, will form an interim government with elections soon to follow. iraq will cede territory to saudi arabia.

then iran will be taken down.

the mullahs leave for europe, (where they will be hailed as freedom fighters against fascist america), and the people elect a leader like in afghanistan.

then saudi arabia's corrupt elite will be deposed of for funding terrorists worldwide, and the country reshaped in the image of egypt.

the hashemite kingdom of jordan will be transformed into a palestinian republic.

if anybody starts another war on israel, israel will then obtain the disputed territories for good as well as ancient gilead east of the jordan river.

syria will remain an isolated dictatorship in the region, stabilizing it by forcing the new states to remain vigilant in respect to it, syria's dictator becoming their common enemy, and serving as reminder of the political system they just escaped.

like general lehman said:

power corrupts, absolute power...

is really cool!

any takers?

<span id='postcolor'>

What a bizare fantasy. Is that what you expect or want? Or both?<span id='postcolor'>

honi soit que mal y pense,

I had hoped, paratrooper, that you might pick up the train of thought and subtract from, or embellish it on your own.

present your own idea of a middle east scenario for the next few months and years. definitely more entertaining than your one line spam responses, without which this forum would not be any poorer.<span id='postcolor'>

I asked you a question. My response would be determined by that, not a jibe and not spam. I assume you would answer that it is what you expect. I expect no change in the Middle East. None. Saudi Arabia and Jordan have very stable monarchys. Which is good for the region considering the dangerous elements moving in the Arab world currently.<span id='postcolor'>

there is a great difference between jordan and saudi arabia.

I have to admit, I have a soft spot for jordan. I liked king hussein. He always struck me as the most fairminded arab ruler down there.

arafat took advantage of the king in the seventies, when the PLO became a de facto shadow government in jordan until hussein kicked arafat and his minions out. And he made peace with israel before he died. A great man, especially considering the circumstances under which he labored.

saudi arabia is an entirely different matter. It's rulers are corrupt. They are buying off threats to their hated rule by funding the most extremist religious fanatics around. in mini-mini-bosnia alone they invested 800.000.000 $ in mosques and other islamic activities. most of the 911 killers were saudis. all they have down there is oil and islam.

They keep their people locked up in the middle ages.

that clique needs to go.

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 15 2002,12:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">... this thread is not just useful for discussing the latest news.  For example, Bogo found and posted the following old quote by Israel's first Prime Minister on page 216:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?

David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox"

by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress<span id='postcolor'>This quote is very relevant and, as you probably already know, it did not appear earlier in this thread.  It would not have been posted at all had this thread been closed at page 215.

But we digress...  <span id='postcolor'>

bernadotte, the ben-gurion-quote is not self-incriminating as you would have it! all former mr. gruen (ben-gurion's real name) does is state the arab view of israel, not his own.

don't deconstruct him into a murderous, conniving hypocrite he never was.

(what are you? an intern at the ny times? )

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 15 2002,23:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">saudi arabia is an entirely different matter. It's rulers are corrupt. They are buying off threats to their hated rule by funding the most extremist religious fanatics around.<span id='postcolor'>

Any evidence for this?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">in mini-mini-bosnia alone they invested 800.000.000 $ in mosques and other islamic activities. <span id='postcolor'> Why shouldn't they help fellow muslims? Would you object to churches?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">most of the 911 killers were saudis. all they have down there is oil and islam.

<span id='postcolor'> That is just pointless, insulting too. What does it matter which country they were from?

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Paratrooper when are you on MSN messanger? I sent you PM but you did not respond.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote

most of the 911 killers were saudis. all they have down there is oil and islam.

That is just pointless, insulting too. What does it matter which country they were from?

<span id='postcolor'>

It matters becuase that means that that country has terriost problems.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 16 2002,01:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Paratrooper when are you on MSN messanger? I sent you PM but you did not respond.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote  

most of the 911 killers were saudis. all they have down there is oil and islam.

That is just pointless, insulting too. What does it matter which country they were from?

<span id='postcolor'>

It matters becuase that means that that country has terriost problems. <span id='postcolor'>

There have been terrorists from almost every country in the world!

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

If most come form one country then you should takea look at that country.

Paratrooper I thought you wanted to talk abouth this on MSN, I put a guy namned Hector on my list, is that you?

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 16 2002,02:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If most come form one country then you should takea look at that country. <span id='postcolor'>

But they don't. America, Britain, France have all produced terrorists. Your point is moot.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 15 2002,23:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 15 2002,12:o9)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?

David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox"

by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

bernadotte, the ben-gurion-quote is not self-incriminating as you would have it! all former mr. gruen (ben-gurion's real name) does is state the arab view of israel, not his own.

don't deconstruct him into a murderous, conniving hypocrite he never was.

(what are you? an intern at the ny times?)<span id='postcolor'>

Skipping your medication again, Sam?

I only said the quote was very relevant.  Nahum Goldmann probably thought so too or he would not have put it in his book.  And Ben-Gurion's remark, "Sure, God promised it [Palestine] to us..." couldn't be farther from the Arab view of Israel.

By the way, have you considered de-caff?

[Col. Kurtz 0]

I think the only was this war will be finished is if 1.A mod closes it or 2.(this applies in the real world tm. conflict too)Each side learns to be more open to other peoples opinion and start to listen to what other people have to say.

[ralphwiggum 6]

guys, cool it down please.

[stoppelhopser 0]

sdfvd

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (stoppelhopser @ Sep. 16 2002,12:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">sdfvd<span id='postcolor'>

If you have no sensible contribution to make, then please refrain from posting

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 16 2002,02:52)

If most come form one country then you should takea look at that country.

But they don't. America, Britain, France have all produced terrorists. Your point is moot.

<span id='postcolor'>

They have not produced terriost like the ones on 9/11, and when a country does have a terriost problem a look needs to be made at it. America delt with their problem, but if a country does not and it hurts other countries then that counrt has a terriost problem.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote (stoppelhopser @ Sep. 16 2002,122)

sdfvd

If you have no sensible contribution to make, then please refrain from posting <span id='postcolor'>

What kind of post was that? Odd post for his/her first one.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 15 2002,15:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote (stoppelhopser @ Sep. 16 2002,122)

sdfvd

If you have no sensible contribution to make, then please refrain from posting <span id='postcolor'>

What kind of post was that? Odd post for his/her first one. <span id='postcolor'>

Blahwakiwokisnoki oink! oink! WHikikikikieeeeeke ala ala ala ala arouf arouf se nogitasci!

This is a pretty odd post for my 1123th post too!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They have not produced terriost like the ones on 9/11, and when a country does have a terriost problem a look needs to be made at it. America delt with their problem, but if a country does not and it hurts other countries then that counrt has a terriost problem. <span id='postcolor'>

Um, for some reason i don't understand one damn sentence of what you just said.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Um, for some reason i don't understand one damn sentence of what you just said.  <span id='postcolor'>

To be honest I did not think many people would. I was ready to go to bead and did not want to take time to make sense.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

You know whats most frightening DOR?

In a couple of weeks u have more posts than I :/

[Frisbee 0]

Terrorism is an objective thing.WW2 : germans call them terrorists,we call them the brave resistance fighters.

Military might hasn't defeated terrorism ever before,and it probably never will,this is what the us seems to be forgetting,they're fighting the symptoms and not the root of it.

Same goes for Israel really.

I admit that btoh do wrong,but the general public mostly blames israel completely,that's why i defend them often.

So just remember that terrorism is objective.

Probably all i'm saying or anyone will say has been said before but what the hell.

[KingBeast 0]

There was a program on Channel 3 (in the UK) last night caleld "The issue is still Palestine" and whereas it did seem a little biased, it was one hell of an eye opener.

Israeli settlements are built on hills, with huge walls and such so that they look like fortresses, and they all surround the meagre palestinian settlements. This apparently makes the palestinians feel very small, as though the Israelis are better than them and ruling over them. They have even made a road which is for Jews only, safety of the settlers apparently. (Saudia Arabia anyone?)

There was quite a lot about the checkpoints too, for instance if 2 or 3 settlers are "at risk", the checkpoints will close and back up traffic for miles and miles, and that traffic will have to wait anywhere up to 8 hours or so before they are allowed to move again, and there are plenty of cases of pregnant women being refused to pass. One lady on the show told about how the Israelis wouldnt let them pass to get to the hospital, so she had the baby there and her mother had to cut the babies umbilical with a razor blade. As you would expect, the baby died.

The thing abotu the program though, is that they took viewpoints from plenty of Israelis, those sympathetic to the palestinians cause and those that werent.

One man whose daughter was killed by a suicide bomber surprisingly was sympathetic to the Palestinians.

He said "I do not forgive, I do not forget. Anyone that kills little girls is a terrorist, but you have to think why they do this? It does not come out of the blue."

Perhaps it was a bit of a biased program, but it sure struck home to me. Especially seeing a video of IDF soldiers with a Palestinian prisoner. They held him and then used a rock to break his arms and shoulder bones.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 15 2002,12:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Sep. 15 2002,08:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Sep. 14 2002,21:o4)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 14 2002,14:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Sep. 14 2002,14:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">217 pages, and the arguments still haven't progessed?<span id='postcolor'>

Please don't spam this thread, as you can see there is enough waffle in it already!  <span id='postcolor'>

Why is my opinion spam?

My view that this thread has long outlived it's relevance and is getting nowhere is perfectly valid.<span id='postcolor'>

With this, i agree.<span id='postcolor'>

Firstly, without this thread there would likely be at least 2 or 3 other threads posted per week on Mid East matters.  Sticking this thread actually saves page 1 space.

Secondly, opinions expressed about the Mid East thread are not about the Mid East.  Most of us don't come here to find out what others think about this thread.  Unless you are moderating this discussion, try posting a new topic about this thread if you feel so compelled to argue its relevance.  Otherwise, if you don't like how the board is run, take it up with admin and not us.

Thirdly, this thread is not just useful for discussing the latest news.<span id='postcolor'>

Firstly that's a pretty lame reason for continuing a thread IMHO...by that reasoning, we should have a continuing thread for "I lost my CD key, where do I get another one"...

Secondly I'm sorry, I didn't realise this thread had it's own special set of rules and was exempt from public comment. Until I hear otherwise, I consider it perfectly valid to comment on the thread as well as the issue. Otherwise, how would anyone respond to what someone else had posted?

Thirdly I just don't get the relevance or point of that at all...first you tell me I can't comment outside the scope of the thread, then you say the thread is useful beyond that scope? Me confused...

Let me tell a story of another popular thread (probably a bit before your time). It was a great thread, where people would post images so that everyone could share them. Then it got closed because people couldn't follow the forum board rules. That thread din't have 1/10th th flaming and name calling this thread did...I just don't understand why this thread is open. It is 220+ pages of "yes it is" "no it isn't" "yes it is" "no it isn't" "yes it is" "no it isn't"...quite a few good points have been raised, but the majority of posters here are terminally biased to one side or the other, and want nothing more than to crow they are right and others are wrong...

Which brings me to my point: this thread outlived it's usefulness and meaningfulness a long time ago...dejavu?

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Sep. 17 2002,00:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Terrorism is an objective thing.WW2 : germans call them terrorists,we call them the brave resistance fighters.<span id='postcolor'>

i agree , my father shown me some papers belonging to one of my grandfathers , a german poster warning the population about possible represails against her because of the acts of a suspected terrorist , he shown me an illegal exemplary of a resistance's journal , a 1 page printed paper leaf , the same "terrorist" is being anknowledged , felicited , and his "heroism and courage" have been described on this ^paper leaf , they called the guy "brave and courageous resistance fighter fighting for the free France

funny thing , you know what he did ? he had put put sugar in half of the total number of cars of the local wehrmacht commandement and stolen several rifles and ammo cases

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Which brings me to my point: this thread outlived it's usefulness and meaningfulness a long time ago...dejavu? <span id='postcolor'>

Fubar, if you have something to contribute to this thread, then do. If you just want to whine about that it is meaningless then don't bother to post. It is ceartainly more meaningful then the "Therapy thread" ever was.

There are many people on this board that find this thread interesting and it helps to keep all the Israel/Palestine topics in one place.

Now, if you have something say on-topic, feel free to post here, otherwise, stay away and mind your own business. We have moderators that make decisions on whether a thread is relevant or not.

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ Sep. 17 2002,13:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There was a program on Channel 3 (in the UK) last night caleld "The issue is still Palestine" and whereas it did seem a little biased, it was one hell of an eye opener...

(Interesting, engaging post)

...

Perhaps it was a bit of a biased program, but it sure struck home to me. Especially seeing a video of IDF soldiers with a Palestinian prisoner. They held him and then used a rock to break his arms and shoulder bones.<span id='postcolor'>

Now, they definitely shouldn't do stuff like that. There's no excuse.

It is difficult though to rate video clips for their objectivity. Reminds me of the pic where the south Nam general shoots the cuffed vietcong in the head. It looks awful. But the prisoner had gotten condemned for killing that general's family. The general merely executed the murderer.

But if that incident is really true, it is almost as bad as blowing innocents up with pipebombs (just to get faster onto the 72 virgins waiting for the martyr in islamic paradise.)

By the way, I found this entertaining piece today.

chesnoff is a respected news commentator, formerly with USNews & World Report.

It's about homegrown criticism of the palestinian dictator.

http://jewishworldreview.com/richard/chesnoff.html

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 17 2002,21:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">By the way, I found this entertaining piece today.

chesnoff is a respected news commentator, formerly with USNews & World Report.

It's about homegrown criticism of the palestinian dictator.

http://jewishworldreview.com/richard/chesnoff.html<span id='postcolor'>

Arafat is an elected president. Also I wouldn't credit Jewsihworldnews.com with much objectivity.