Mid east

[bogo 0]

Duke read this:

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?

David Ben-Gurion quoted in

"The Jewish Paradox"by Nahum Goldmann,

former president of the World Jewish Congress.

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Sep. 12 2002,08:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 11 2002,23:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">this here world, my fairminded friend, is probably the only heaven you'll ever meet, and the only hell some of us will have to endure.

God revealed himself in Jesus.<span id='postcolor'>

Excellent... have proof?

And as for Hell, I believe the existentialist Jean Paul Sartre (French- but we shouldnt hold it against him) summed it up best: "There's no need for red-hot pokers. Hell is- other people!!"<span id='postcolor'>

proof?

got plenty. guys like you just don't go for it. matter of fact, I probably could part the red sea and you'd just mumble about friction in the earth or something.

Jesus himself could probably come down the street with red

neon signs pointing to him and you wouldn't acknowledge him.

problem is, in the end you die in your sins and aren't ready to meet infinite justice. that's a shame.

your sartre quote is a tad too misanthropic for me. right up there with descartes and spinoza.

anyway.

in the end existentialism always leads to nihilism of some form or another. and that's no answer.

but this is the mid east thread.

now, after the prez's speech in front of the UN let's develop a scenario of the region 10 years from now!

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 13 2002,00:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Sep. 12 2002,08:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 11 2002,23:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">this here world, my fairminded friend, is probably the only heaven you'll ever meet, and the only hell some of us will have to endure.

God revealed himself in Jesus.<span id='postcolor'>

Excellent... have proof?

And as for Hell, I believe the existentialist Jean Paul Sartre (French- but we shouldnt hold it against him) summed it up best: "There's no need for red-hot pokers. Hell is- other people!!"<span id='postcolor'>

proof?

got plenty. guys like you just don't go for it. matter of fact, I probably could part the red sea and you'd just mumble about friction in the earth or something.

Jesus himself could probably come down the street with red

neon signs pointing to him and you wouldn't acknowledge him.

problem is, in the end you die in your sins and aren't ready to meet infinite justice. that's a shame.

your sartre quote is a tad too misanthropic for me. right up there with descartes and spinoza.

anyway.

in the end existentialism always leads to nihilism of some form or another. and that's no answer.

but this is the mid east thread.

now, after the prez's speech in front of the UN let's develop a scenario of the region 10 years from now!<span id='postcolor'>

Sow in a short sentence if jesus came back to us now and he saw what was going one in the middle east he would say kick those arabs from there?

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

If it was not Israel's land, then I would sya that they are 100% wrong, but since it is their land they are 100% right. How can you support Plaestine? I do not understand! You are supporting a country that kills innocent civilians on purpose! You are supporting a country that supports terriosm! You are supporting a country that is living in somebody elses land!

[Chill 0]

There are some lessons here for Israel. First, Israelis must finally begin to understand that inventories of missiles, planes, bombs and warships do not constitute real power. Rather, the ingredients of real power remain subtle and often intangible. Moreover, these ingredients include the presumed opposite of power, which is weakness. As for leadership, this has proven to be far less consequential for Israeli power than anyone could ever have imagined. For the foreseeable future, any leader of Israel will be incapable of serious vision - of a vision that understands the paradox of power and weakness. Among other things, this Israeli incapacity is rooted in a distorted image of "democracy," which elevates the uninformed judgments of The Many above the essential insights of The Few.

[Guest]

Sam Samson and bogo! This is not the place to discuss religion. If you continue this discussion I will take actions against you corresponding the ones I took I against Duke of Ray when his posts got out of hand.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I will take actions against you corresponding the ones I took I against Duke of Ray when his posts got out of hand.<span id='postcolor'>

I never get out of control!

[bogo 0]

DOR do you ever read my post or for that matter others post.

I should think that you have learned something about middle east from our post but unil now your response is always the same that means you don't even botter to read it .

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 12 2002,20:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If it was up to me I would relocate the people of Plaestine to another country.<span id='postcolor'>

As you know, the Palestinians would not willingly leave the little land they have left.  And forced deportation or any form of ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity.  So you would be breaking international law.  Ultimately, you would spend the rest of your life in prison.

Duke_of_Ray, it doesn't bother me that you are willing to suffer for your religious beliefs.  What is really disgusting is that you don't mind causing so many innocent people to suffer for the sake of your religious beliefs.  In that way, you are no different than Osama Bin Laden.

Edit:  This post was not intended to focus on religion.  People are being forced to suffer for many other reasons too.  DoR's motivation for making innocent people suffer just happens to be his own spiritual fulfilment. Unfortunately, he is not alone.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Sep. 12 2002,22:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?

David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox"

by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

Just in case someone doesn't know, David Ben-Gurion was Israel's first and longest-serving Prime Minister.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 12 2002,20:23)

If it was up to me I would relocate the people of Plaestine to another country.

As you know, the Palestinians would not willingly leave the little land they have left.  And forced deportation or any form of ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity.  So you would be breaking international law.  Ultimately, you would spend the rest of your life in prison.

Duke_of_Ray, it doesn't bother me that you are willing to suffer for your religious beliefs.  What is really disgusting is that you don't mind causing so many innocent people to suffer for the sake of your religious beliefs.  In that way, you are no different than Osama Bin Laden.

Edit:  This post was not intended to focus on religion.  People are being forced to suffer for many other reasons too.  DoR's motivation for making innocent people suffer just happens to be his own spiritual fulfilment.  Unfortunately, he is not alone.  

bogo Posted on Sep. 13 2002,08:26

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DOR do you ever read my post or for that matter others post.

I should think that you have learned something about middle east from our post but unil now your response is always the same that means you don't even botter to read it . I am the same as Osama Bin Laden!

<span id='postcolor'>

lol!  How many times must I say I can not talk about religion?! Besides moving people away from a place that is not theirs is not wrong. I want no one to suffer, and clearly by not doing something like relocation people will suffer. I am the same as Osama you say?! lol

[Sam Samson 0]

well, we could argue israelis/palestinos until we're blue in the face (and we were a couple of times, weren't we), and we would never agree.

the mid east is big, and now, since the president admonished the UN to take itself serious again by saying the UN should demand iraq follow some 27 resolutions hussein so far ignores, let's talk about the possible pax uno (or americana) in the region.

just a fantasy...:

after using afghanistan and several other -stans for decentral mobilization zones, building up forces, america will move on iraq, disabling its military and all wmd-sites permanently.

hussein will move underground and fade into irrelevancy. (capture is nary impossible.)

an iraqi general who went awol during the gulf war and lived in the US since, will form an interim government with elections soon to follow. iraq will cede territory to saudi arabia.

then iran will be taken down.

the mullahs leave for europe, (where they will be hailed as freedom fighters against fascist america), and the people elect a leader like in afghanistan.

then saudi arabia's corrupt elite will be deposed of for funding terrorists worldwide, and the country reshaped in the image of egypt.

the hashemite kingdom of jordan will be transformed into a palestinian republic.

if anybody starts another war on israel, that country will then obtain the disputed territories for good as well as ancient gilead west of the jordan river.

syria will remain an isolated dictatorship in the region, stabilizing it by forcing the new states to remain vigilant in respect to it, syria's dictator becoming their common enemy, and serving as reminder of the political system they just escaped.

like general lehman said:

power corrupts, absolute power is really cool!

any takers?

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 14 2002,00:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well, we could argue israelis/palestinos until we're blue in the face (and we were a couple of times, weren't we), and we would never agree.

the mid east is big, and now, since the president admonished the UN to take itself serious again by saying the UN should demand iraq follow some 27 resolutions hussein so far ignores, let's talk about the possible pax uno (or americana) in the region.

just a fantasy...:

after using afghanistan and several other -stans for decentral mobilization zones, building up forces, america will move on iraq, disabling its military and all wmd-sites permanently.

hussein will move underground and fade into irrelevancy. (capture is nary impossible.)

an iraqi general who went awol during the gulf war and lived in the US since, will form an interim government with elections soon to follow. iraq will cede territory to saudi arabia.

then iran will be taken down.

the mullahs leave for europe, (where they will be hailed as freedom fighters against fascist america), and the people elect a leader like in afghanistan.

then saudi arabia's corrupt elite will be deposed of for funding terrorists worldwide, and the country reshaped in the image of egypt.

the hashemite kingdom of jordan will be transformed into a palestinian republic.

if anybody starts another war on israel, that country will then obtain the disputed territories for good as well as ancient gilead west of the jordan river.

syria will remain an isolated dictatorship in the region, stabilizing it by forcing the new states to remain vigilant in respect to it, syria's dictator becoming their common enemy, and serving as reminder of the political system they just escaped.

like general lehman said:

power corrupts, absolute power is really cool!

any takers?

<span id='postcolor'>

What a bizare fantasy. Is that what you expect or want? Or both?

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">hussein will move underground and fade into irrelevancy. (capture is nary impossible.)<span id='postcolor'>

I think he will be killed this time, nice set of predictions. I wish I were as gifted.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 13 2002,23:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">lol!  How many times must I say I can not talk about religion?!<span id='postcolor'>

This is not about your religion.  You can have any religious beliefs you want - I really don't care.  This is only about the consequences of your religious beliefs and anyone else's religious beliefs (like Osama's) that cause innocent people to suffer.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 13 2002,23:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Besides moving people away from a place that is not theirs is not wrong.<span id='postcolor'>

You want to move people away from places that are legally theirs.  That is illegal and wrong, no matter what your religion says.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 13 2002,23:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I want no one to suffer, and clearly by not doing something like relocation people will suffer.<span id='postcolor'>

Anyone who causes innocent people to suffer through terrorism should be punished.  If you cause innocent people to suffer by deporting them then you should also suffer, and not just in this life.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

So if I moved into your house without asking you and you kicked me out and I suffered that would be wrong? Palestine is in Israel, and kicking them out of a place they do not belong should not cause them to suffer! I want no INNOCENT to suffer, and even a guy with poked out eyes can see that by leave Palestine there that peace will not come to the region!

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Waht if the Isralis left? Then the Palestinians would be happy and would not attack anyone. Why does it hav to be the Palestinians that have to leave? Since Im trying to find a solution with no Religion involved, if one side has to go, why not the other? I think that they need to accept their diffrences, forget the past as much as they can, and live together. I doubt this will happen however, but I also doubt there will be many happy chappies when you announce to the Palestinians that they are no been deported to some country they dont want to go too, and what country wants to take them? Just becuase all Middle East countries bar Israel are Muslim, does not mean all middle east countries would be happy to inherit the population of Palestinia.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 14 2002,05:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So if I moved into your house without asking you and you kicked me out and I suffered that would be wrong?<span id='postcolor'>

No... unless I tried to kick you out after you'd already managed to live in my home for 50 years.  But if you moved into my house and tried to kick me out that would be very wrong.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 14 2002,05:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Palestine is in Israel...<span id='postcolor'>

No it isn't... not according to any internationally recognised law, act or declaration.  But that doesn't even matter.  Even if Palestine actually was in Israel, forced deportation of innocent people is still a crime.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 14 2002,05:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...and kicking them out of a place they do not belong should not cause them to suffer!<span id='postcolor'>

Kicking them out of places that they legally own is against international law and will cause them to suffer.  Whether you think they belong there or not, you would go to prison for kicking them out.

Duke_of_Ray, you justify your illegal solutions to the Middle East problem by basing them on interpretations of holy scriptures (Bible).  Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaida also justify their illegal solutions by basing them on interpretations of holy scriptures (Koran).  Unfortunately, Osama Bin Laden is doing much more than spamming a discussion forum with his ideas.

[Paratrooper 0]

Palestinians don't have to 'leave Israel'(sic) Israelis need to leave Palestine, move the settlements!

[Major Fubar 0]

217 pages, and the arguments still haven't progessed?

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Sep. 14 2002,14:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">217 pages, and the arguments still haven't progessed?<span id='postcolor'>

Please don't spam this thread, as you can see there is enough waffle in it already!

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 14 2002,01:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well, we could argue israelis/palestinos until we're blue in the face (and we were a couple of times, weren't we), and we would never agree.

the mid east is big, and now, since the president admonished the UN to take itself serious again by saying the UN should demand iraq follow some 27 resolutions hussein so far ignores, let's talk about the possible pax uno (or americana) in the region.

just a fantasy...:

after using afghanistan and several other -stans for decentral mobilization zones, building up forces, america will move on iraq, disabling its military and all wmd-sites permanently.

hussein will move underground and fade into irrelevancy. (capture is nary impossible.)

an iraqi general who went awol during the gulf war and lived in the US since, will form an interim government with elections soon to follow. iraq will cede territory to saudi arabia.

then iran will be taken down.

the mullahs leave for europe, (where they will be hailed as freedom fighters against fascist america), and the people elect a leader like in afghanistan.

then saudi arabia's corrupt elite will be deposed of for funding terrorists worldwide, and the country reshaped in the image of egypt.

the hashemite kingdom of jordan will be transformed into a palestinian republic.

if anybody starts another war on israel, that country will then obtain the disputed territories for good as well as ancient gilead west of the jordan river.

syria will remain an isolated dictatorship in the region, stabilizing it by forcing the new states to remain vigilant in respect to it, syria's dictator becoming their common enemy, and serving as reminder of the political system they just escaped.

like general lehman said:

power corrupts, absolute power is really cool!

any takers?

<span id='postcolor'>

It's such a shame that when you look at people you categorise them. It shouldent matter if you are christian,muslim,jew,black white or whatever. We are all the same as long as some off us don't see that and take the people that are less fourtanate it will cause unjust and unjust will cause wars and animosity.

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 14 2002,00:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 14 2002,00:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well, we could argue israelis/palestinos until we're blue in the face (and we were a couple of times, weren't we), and we would never agree.

the mid east is big, and now, since the president admonished the UN to take itself serious again by saying the UN should demand iraq follow some 27 resolutions hussein so far ignores, let's talk about the possible pax uno (or americana) in the region.

just a fantasy...:

after using afghanistan and several other -stans for decentral mobilization zones, building up forces, america will move on iraq, disabling its military and all wmd-sites permanently.

hussein will move underground and fade into irrelevancy. (capture is nary impossible.)

an iraqi general who went awol during the gulf war and lived in the US since, will form an interim government with elections soon to follow. iraq will cede territory to saudi arabia.

then iran will be taken down.

the mullahs leave for europe, (where they will be hailed as freedom fighters against fascist america), and the people elect a leader like in afghanistan.

then saudi arabia's corrupt elite will be deposed of for funding terrorists worldwide, and the country reshaped in the image of egypt.

the hashemite kingdom of jordan will be transformed into a palestinian republic.

if anybody starts another war on israel, israel will then obtain the disputed territories for good as well as ancient gilead east of the jordan river.

syria will remain an isolated dictatorship in the region, stabilizing it by forcing the new states to remain vigilant in respect to it, syria's dictator becoming their common enemy, and serving as reminder of the political system they just escaped.

like general lehman said:

power corrupts, absolute power...

is really cool!

any takers?

<span id='postcolor'>

What a bizare fantasy. Is that what you expect or want? Or both?<span id='postcolor'>

honi soit que mal y pense,

I had hoped, paratrooper, that you might pick up the train of thought and subtract from, or embellish it on your own.

present your own idea of a middle east scenario for the next few months and years. definitely more entertaining than your one line spam responses, without which this forum would not be any poorer.

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Sep. 14 2002,19:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 14 2002,01:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well, we could argue israelis/palestinos until we're blue in the face (and we were a couple of times, weren't we), and we would never agree.

...<span id='postcolor'>

It's such a shame that when you look at people you categorise them. It shouldent matter if you are christian,muslim,jew,black white or whatever. We are all the same as long as some off us don't see that and take the people that are less fourtanate it will cause unjust and unjust will cause wars and animosity.<span id='postcolor'>

bogo,

I don't understand a word you write. could you explain yourself some more?

and I really don't want to talk about it anymore in here, but...

about israel surrendering land that once was theirs for many long centuries:

everybody should know by now that I feel israel has a right to exist. I don't share any of the obvious hatred many people here bear for that nation whatsoever.

israel is my sympathy nation of choice.

I don't feel any closeness to any of the corrupt dicatatorships and extremist fiefdoms in the region.

however, in the past God did indeed tell his people to surrender to a foreign power and leave their homeland. nebuchadnezzar's babylon is the case in point.

the southern jews, (northern israel had long been deported, it's population partially replaced by "samaritans"), were to go into captivity for a set number of years. jeremiah told them God would bless them in captivity outside of their land.

and he did!

daniel became chancellor of the empire with three of his closest friends running the most important provinces of babylon. (jews in high places? gimme more!

like now, many of the jews returned to their homeland after a considerable amount of time, and the inhabitants of the region didn't like it and schemed against it, just like now.

israel depended on a superpower for protection then (persia, today's iran). today, by now, it can hold its liquor on its own.

but looking at the present situation:

any way I slice and dice it: israel cannot surrender certain territories without jeopardizing its very existence.

until a new leadership takes over for the palestinians the status quo will remain.

a recent positive sign was that arafat's cabinet stepped down because the pal's parliament, (convening for the first time in 18 months!, maintained that those ministers are largely self-serving, incompetent and corrupt, (like the man himself)!

I knew there was common sense in a lot of those people.

[ran 0]

-edit- : nevermind