Mid east

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 24 2002,11:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Spies arrested in US 0 1<span id='postcolor'>

Don't forget

Israel often uses fake Canadian passports and complete ID's for their special forces to gain access to key enemy locations in order to accomplish a military objective.

In one incident Israel denied this happened, when it was actually proven, Israel did not appologize to Canada, continues to do it, and says we should understand! (I have some wonderful words in my mind for this, but they do not belong here)

EDIT: Basically Israel is puting Canadian lives in danger. I am reeeealy upset about this.

[Frisbee 0]

Sorry avon,i was reffering to bernadottes post.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Sep. 23 2002,23:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">.....Ari Fleischer said..... "The president wants to make sure that Israeli actions do not undermine reform efforts toward peace."

- Now, change the last word into war, not peace.<span id='postcolor'>

YEs, when listening to Bush and his govt. usually substituting war for peace works well. Just now Bush said (when pushing for a war with Iraq) "they are a threat to the peace in the world"... when Bush is the one asking for war, not Iraq.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Sep. 24 2002,19:o2)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What i wonder,Iraq has been proved to have tried to ethnically cleanse their population (kurds anyone?)

So i wonder if Israel has been proved to do the same to palestinians.<span id='postcolor'>

Ethnic cleansing takes many forms.  It's not always done with gas and guns as Saddam Hussein (and Hitler) tried.  What usually works best is simply moving your people in and other people out while passing discriminatory laws that keep them out.  It works best because the international community rarely intervenes.  (eg.  Hungarians in Communist Romania)

The Deir Yassin massacre is a rather classic example of ethnic cleansing, even though it occurred a month before Israel was founded.  The Jewish militia commander involved admitted afterwards to exaggerating the body count "to scare the Arabs."  ...And it certainly worked.

Today according to USCR, as many as 250,000 long-term displaced Palestinians reside in Israel.  These are Palestinian Arabs who fled (or where forced from) their villages within Israel but somehow managed to remain within Israel's borders but unable to return home.  So is this also ethnic cleansing?  I think yes.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Sep. 24 2002,19:o2)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And you certainly can't blame the israeli's for starting a war against people who have an agressive stance against them and would've done the same if israel wasn't at it before them.<span id='postcolor'>

Then you can't blame the Kaiser's Germany either for starting WWI.  Most wars are started by people who have rightly or wrongly convinced themselves that they've been provoked.  The Whitehouse is trying to convince the world of this at this very moment.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Sep. 24 2002,19:o2)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And certainly,you do have a certain right to territory you fought a war over.

Germany had to give territory after WW2,France after Napoleon's rule,etc...<span id='postcolor'>

I agree it sounds reasonable, but then the UN came along and declared that the acquisition of territory by war is inadmissible.  This is probably because it tends to leave smoldering tensions that eventually erupt into new conflicts.  (Palestine anyone?)

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 24 2002,23:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Deir Yassin massacre<span id='postcolor'>

The fictitious Arab accounts of Deir Yassin

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 24 2002,14:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How sad it is that there is only 3 or 4 of us who can see the truth.<span id='postcolor'>

It's like, your mouth is moving, but nothing is coming out.

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Posted: Quote (The AvonLady @ Sep. 25 2002,09:10)    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 24 2002,23:22)

The Deir Yassin massacre

-----------------------------------------------------

The fictitious Arab accounts of Deir Yassin

<span id='postcolor'>

This does little to help as virtually all your sources come from bias sites. With a distinct lack of 'Official Palestinian' news sources in the Western world, using Israeli news/facts/propaganda sites may not be that prudent. Try if you can to find a news service that takes a middle ground.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 24 2002,14:23)

How sad it is that there is only 3 or 4 of us who can see the truth.

It's like, your mouth is moving, but nothing is coming out.<span id='postcolor'>

Thats most likely becuase I am typing on a message board. Anyways I do not believe this is the place for our arguments toward each other. SO I will try to discuss what the topic is about.

[Sam Samson 0]

question for you guys with more time than me:

in the 1948 war, (started by the arabs with the goal to quickly destroy Israel), Jordan conquered the "west bank" and simply incorporated the territory into its borders.

Jordan didn't make it available for a palestinian state. that was never an option. refugees were kept in camps.

why?

why did Jordan not create a palestinian homeland in nearly 20 years?

and why was Israel's '67 conquest and subsequent incorporation of the territory an unforgivable sin and Jordan's annexation in '48 acceptable?

sounds like a double standard to me.

I maintain, so far unrefuted:

the longterm arab goal was, is and will always be the destruction of Israel, even without the palestinian issue.

...and the reason why there is no widely circulated palestinian press for westerners is that their stuff is so outrageous it is unpresentable to western minds. in the west even the most self-immunized smart alecks and dingbats are still somewhat able to discern biased propaganda, and be it only because they have been exposed to other reading material.

also: I refuse to even compare Israel with Iraq, one being a bloody dictatorship, the other the only democracy in the entire region. it is nutty to do so, though worthy of bernadotte to try.

actually I think it is wicked, wrongheaded and ill-spirited.

you may not like Sharon, but he will be voted out one of these days and somebody else will get a chance. arafat or saddam will never surrender, unless being forced by an iron fist. (doesn't have to be W's.)

a new leadership brings out new characteristics in a people.

I'm not entirely without hope for the palestinians.

let them send arafat into exile on st. helena.

let somebody new have a chance to make a difference.

[Badgerboy 0]

Although I don't agree the two countries are alike, both Saddam and Sharon have innocent blood on their hands. The only difference being is that Sharon is actually wanted for war crimes.

There will be no peace while that fat butcher remains in office.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Sep. 25 2002,11:o7)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Posted: Quote (The AvonLady @ Sep. 25 2002,09:10)    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 24 2002,23:22)

The Deir Yassin massacre

-----------------------------------------------------

The fictitious Arab accounts of Deir Yassin

<span id='postcolor'>

This does little to help as virtually all your sources come from bias sites. With a distinct lack of 'Official Palestinian' news sources in the Western world, using Israeli news/facts/propaganda sites may not be that prudent. Try if you can to find a news service that takes a middle ground.<span id='postcolor'>

Hey Badgerboy, I understand where you're coming from, but on the tragic topic of Deir Yassin I feel theavonlady is making an fair point.  Entering "Deir Yassin" into Google returns nearly 9,000 hits.  The vast majority of these pages shamelessly overstate the massacre and should be discarded as virulent anti-Israel propaganda.

A few years ago, a Jerusalem Post writer wrote...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My sense is that too many Holocaust books are published, and that in some perverse way, the deluge trivializes the catastrophe. <span id='postcolor'>

I agree, and on an entirely different scale, something similar can be said about Deir Yassin.

However... perhaps it was Germany's efforts to reconcile and apologise for what happened to the Jews of Europe that prevented the Holocaust from being misused as a Deir Yassin style anti-Germany propaganda steamroller.  In other words, Israel could do itself a great favour and deflate much propaganda by apologising for Deir Yassin and other militia-lead atrocities.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

I was listning to BBC World Service and a interesting discussion came up. It was about an island off the coast of Tunisia were Muslim and Jews have lived together in peace for thousands of years. They interviewed people from btoh religions and it seems like despite a single suicide bomber attack, they have lived in peace. They live together, work together,a dn teh children go to school together. They are without hate for each other and make a peaceful existance. This is exactly what needs to happen In Palestinia/Israel. They need to take a 180degree turn and learn to accept each other and stop fighting over who should be there. If epople can do it elsewhere, Im sure they could learnt to do it there with time and patience, and most of all: Understanding.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 25 2002,15:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">also: I refuse to even compare Israel with Iraq, one being a bloody dictatorship, the other the only democracy in the entire region. it is nutty to do so, though worthy of bernadotte to try.

actually I think it is wicked, wrongheaded and ill-spirited.<span id='postcolor'>

Did you know that everyone thinks you're paranoid?

Seriously, you should re-read my opening statement.  There are plenty of good arguments for attacking Iraq, however ignoring UN resolutions should not be one of them.  ...Unless you are saying that democracies are allowed to ignore UN resolutions, but dictatorships can't.  Sounds like a double standard that should be avoided.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 25 2002,16:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In other words, Israel could do itself a great favour and deflate much propaganda by apologising for Deir Yassin and other militia-lead atrocities.<span id='postcolor'>

Since there was no attrocity in Deir Yassin, there's nothing to apologize for other than regretting that civilians do get killed and wounded in battles in wars all over the world, on both sides.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Sep. 25 2002,17:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 25 2002,16:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In other words, Israel could do itself a great favour and deflate much propaganda by apologising for Deir Yassin and other militia-lead atrocities.<span id='postcolor'>

Since there was no attrocity in Deir Yassin, there's nothing to apologize for other than regretting that civilians do get killed and wounded in battles in wars all over the world, on both sides.<span id='postcolor'>

You should read the evidence presented by Ami Isseroff, who also states the following:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The material at this site is not ‘Arab propaganda.’ It was researched and written by Zionists who are concerned about the moral image of our state. We cannot bring back the dead. We can tell the truth, offer our sincere apologies, and learn the lesson of Deir Yassin and teach it to our children.  -- Ami Isseroff<span id='postcolor'>

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Hey, my first post in this thread, I promised myself I wouldn't touch this thread with a ten foot pole, but that was a while ago. I found this quote in another thread and I wanted to see what the reasoning behind this was all about:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't like reading that all palestinians should move out of their home "because god says" they don't belong there<span id='postcolor'>

It seemed interesting enough, so I looked and I found some of it on page 217:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So if I moved into your house without asking you and you kicked me out and I suffered that would be wrong? Palestine is in Israel, and kicking them out of a place they do not belong should not cause them to suffer! I want no INNOCENT to suffer, and even a guy with poked out eyes can see that by leave Palestine there that peace will not come to the region! <span id='postcolor'>

D.O.R. are you saying stupid things to make people angry just for your own entertainment, or are you really that ignorant? Because I can't imagine anyone with the ability to reason would say something like that. Your whole logic is twisted, and in the past few pages you don't even bother to back up any of your 'arguments' at all.

Obviously the Palistinians were there first before the Jewish people started moving in from Europe after the Second World War. Yes, the Jewish had a kingdom there a few thousand years before that, is that why you think the Palistinian people do not belong there after living in the area for so long? Don't you think that both of them have a right to be there?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">kicking them out of a place they do not belong <span id='postcolor'>

Who are you to make that judgement?

I suggest you read up on some history of that area before you go and say stupid things like that. I dare you to come up with a legitimate argument for your position, if you can at all.

Tyler

[Bernadotte 0]

Duke_of_Ray and a few others here are Christian Zionists who believe that the lords second coming must be preceded by the Jews repopulating biblical Israel.  Most Christian Zionists believe that the Palestinian people are obstructing this repopulation and this is why they support Israel's actions blindly, no matter how many innocent people may suffer.  Some, like Duke_of_Ray, would even be willing to break international laws such as those against forced deportation to achieve their goals.

Now let's see...  Who do we all know who is willing to break international laws and see huge numbers of people suffer for the sake of achieving his religious and spiritual goals?

(Hint:  His initials are OBL.)  

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Christian Zionists believe that the Palestinian people are obstructing this repopulation<span id='postcolor'> Really?! I did not even know that! Well I guess my reason was sooooo wrong.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">D.O.R. are you saying stupid things to make people angry just for your own entertainment, or are you really that ignorant? Because I can't imagine anyone with the ability to reason would say something like that. Your whole logic is twisted, and in the past few pages you don't even bother to back up any of your 'arguments' at all.

Obviously the Palistinians were there first before the Jewish people started moving in from Europe after the Second World War. Yes, the Jewish had a kingdom there a few thousand years before that, is that why you think the Palistinian people do not belong there after living in the area for so long? Don't you think that both of them have a right to be there?

<span id='postcolor'>

If the Plaestine people could handle peace then I am all for them living there, if that what Israel wants. Since the Palastenians can not handle peace ,in a land which is not theirs, they should be relocated in another country. Give them money, food, supplies, and whatever else they need, and help both sides out by getting some peace out of it.

[KingBeast 0]

Duke of Ray, please explain why the land does not belong t othe Palestinians that have lived there for so many generations?

[Badgerboy 0]

Thats the problem, he can't. He just spews the same tired rhetoric continuously. It's quite depressing really.

Duke - If you want people to take you seriously, at least come half way and argue/debate your point.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Duke of Ray, please explain why the land does not belong t othe Palestinians that have lived there for so many generations?<span id='postcolor'>

It is totally Israels land, and since the Plaestinesn can not handle any kind of peace they need to be moved away, it mya sound bad, but the Plaestinen terriost sound even worse.

[KingBeast 0]

Duke dont answer unless you explain why the palestinian parts of the region belong to Israel.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 26 2002,16:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Duke of Ray, please explain why the land does not belong t othe Palestinians that have lived there for so many generations?<span id='postcolor'>

It is totally Israels land, and since the Plaestinesn can not handle any kind of peace they need to be moved away, it mya sound bad, but the Plaestinen terriost sound even worse.<span id='postcolor'>

He asked you to explain, not repeat. You have just posted a bunch of SPAM DOR.

EDIT: I didn't realize KingBeast was also posting...

[Frisbee 0]

My religion,Frisbeeism,tells me that america is my country.

Since it's unrightfully the americans land,my ancestors lived there thousands of years ago.And,they can't live a peaceful life it should be mine,right?

What a bs way of thinking...

The Israeli's have as much right to be there as the palestinians,less according to some who i find more reasonable than you with your 'god has wanted it so' crap.

The solution,peaceful coexistence won't be seeing daylight anytime soon.If i could hand a solution easily there wouldn't be a problem in the first place,so i don't try to DOR,maybe you should think about that.

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 26 2002,13:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Duke_of_Ray and a few others here are Christian Zionists who believe that the lords second coming must be preceded by the Jews repopulating biblical Israel.

mumble, mumble...

Now let's see...  Who do we all know who is willing to break international laws and see huge numbers of people suffer for the sake of achieving his religious and spiritual goals?

(Hint:  His initials are OBL.)  <span id='postcolor'>

da duke is related to Osama?

bernadotte: get a grip.

you don't know the first thing about biblical christianity. or the distinct difference between christianity and any other religion, particularly islam.

Jesus never killed anybody.

ole mohammed spent his last two years doing nothing but that. and his followers did it for a successive 100 years after that. the only time they really got knocked around was in france by charles martel, daddy of charlemagne. they in turn got attacked (for a change) during the crusades. and they still whine about those.

also for your info: Jesus himself talked about his second coming in Matthew 24; Luke 21 and Mark 13. in Luke 21, 29-32 he talks about a blossoming fig tree. if you would know anything about biblical metaphors you would know that this refers to Israel.

the re-creation of Israel is one of the signs of his coming (no matter how big the territory, really.) happened in 1948.

the other biblical sign is, that the city of Jerusalem will not be in gentile hands anymore, but back under israeli jurisdiction. this came about during the 6 day war, 1967. for the first time in roughly 2500 years Jerusalem is back under jewish control.

I quote Luke 21, 24, for your convenience, so you don't have to go buy yourself a bible:

"...and they (the jews) will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled."

maybe those times are about up?