Mid east

[fraggit 0]

I found an interesting video at this site. It's a streaming video not an article. For those of you who are too lazy to even click a link I'll sum up a little for you.

Basically it's a mini-Marshall plan for Mideast countries/cities/areas/etc who are left out of the oil game. The money doesn't go to the governments but into industry and infrastructure. It turns the refugee camps into a part of the economy. Some really good points are made. But you really should see the video, I'm not going to condense it all.

[Bernadotte 0]

Yup... great plan.

[Jinef 2]

I think that if you take a bunch of people and stick them in their "homeland" which also happens to be the same as a few other people's, and then decide to pump billions of dollars into their economy and give them a formidable military - you are going to disturb the balance of power in that region and therefore cause resentment.

If we (UK and USA primarily) didn't try to engineer the Middle East in the first place then maybe everyone would be living there in a society that accepted lot's of different cultures and religions.

Whoever called Arafat a terrorist -

Terrorism is quite a specific term - rogue factions employing warfare of any type against non-combatants to serve their poilitical causes. This does not include Mr Arafat trying to stop the Israelis killing him by talking to them.

The Americans have now started a craze of calling anyone they dislike a terrorist. This is going to have repercussions.

GWB's last desperate attempt at trying to get the western world support his personal avengance of his father's incompetence is pathetic - Saddam Hussein is linked to terrorist groups. For those of you who listen to Chris Moyles on Radio one, you can probably relate to how this linkage is a bit like comedy Dave's tedious link!

UN weapon inspectors - there is no WMD in Iraq

GWB - there is and i have evidence, look at these reciepts i just got!

I don't think attacking Iraq would be wise, as it would probably trigger hostile action from the secretive allies Saddam has very probably made, why else would he be so provocative unless he has a backup plan.

But as America is led by a spoilt 3 year old who doesn't take no for an answer, we are probablly going to see the coalition of one (maybe two) going in and getting sucked into a pile of shit as high as GWB's ego.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Nov. 03 2002,02:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Terrorism is quite a specific term - rogue factions employing warfare of any type against non-combatants to serve their poilitical causes.<span id='postcolor'>

There was very little war industry in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Nearly all of the 300,000 victims were civilians.  (Imagine one WTC attack every day for the next 15 weeks.)  The use of the A-bomb was primarily political - Japan was not surrendering quickly enough.  The Soviets had already occupied a few Japanese islands (which they still hold today) and were poised to invade the rest.  The non-combatant populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just early victims of the Cold War.  However, as long as the US was not a rogue faction it couldn't be called terrorism, right?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Nov. 03 2002,02:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Americans have now started a craze of calling anyone they dislike a terrorist.<span id='postcolor'>

Remember when anyone who opposed above-ground nuclear testing was labelled a commie by right-wing mouthpieces like John Wayne, who later died of cancer caused by that above-ground testing?

More recently any American who questions increasing the financial/military aid to Israel has been labelled an Anti-Semite.  It's really tragic that, as Israel's chief sponsor, the US could not foresee the consequences of that craze considering that Israel's El Al airliners have flown with sky marshalls and locked, bullet-proofed cockpit doors for decades.

Americans have always paid a heavy price for their crazes.  Just look what happened to JFK's brother.

[edc 0]

Do you know how many allied and Japanese lives that saved??

Arafat is either a complete idiot or he's a terrorist.

So you're saying theres no weapons of mass destruction is Iraq?

*chuckles *

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (edc @ Nov. 03 2002,09:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you know how many allied and Japanese lives that saved??<span id='postcolor'>

No I don't. Please tell me. I'd really like to know how many allied and Japanese lives were saved by killing 300,000 Japanese civilians.

[Jinef 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So you're saying theres no weapons of mass destruction is Iraq?

*chuckles *<span id='postcolor'>

No. I'm saying that GWB should not be quoting who should have and who should not have WMD. Who says America should be the world police? It's not their place.

Saddam Hussein probably has chemical weapons but not WMD.

WMD - Biological + Nuclear

Iraq's GNP for the last ten years would not be sufficient to safely produce biological or nuclear weapons in a purpose built facility that is concealed from UN weapon inspectors.

The reason Iraq doesn't like weapon inspectors is the fact that they have been used to gain information that would provide an advantage for the country that the weapon inspector "served". It is reluctant to let UN weapon inspectors in at the prospect of a war with the USA.

And Saddam Hussein is no idiot, he would not use WMD on anyone anyway but it would be a useful asset for his country to have as a deterance.

[Sadico 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (edc @ Nov. 03 2002,09:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So you're saying theres no weapons of mass destruction is Iraq?

*chuckles *<span id='postcolor'>

Of course they have them, the US provided them in the 80's!!

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sadico @ Nov. 02 2002,20:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (edc @ Nov. 03 2002,09:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So you're saying theres no weapons of mass destruction is Iraq?

*chuckles *<span id='postcolor'>

Of course they have them, the US provided them in the 80's!!<span id='postcolor'>

The irony, the irony...

[bogo 0]

We see time and time again that the american policy is the reason for sow much resement. I would not put all the blame on the americans but i will blame them for suporting over and over again rouge states and dictators. I wish for once they will support democracy. I belive that only when the majority of the people in a country is satisfied then you will have peace and order.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sadico @ Nov. 03 2002,19:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (edc @ Nov. 03 2002,09:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So you're saying theres no weapons of mass destruction is Iraq?

*chuckles *<span id='postcolor'>

Of course they have them, the US provided them in the 80's!!<span id='postcolor'>

Do you really believe that?

Then why didn't Iraq use WMD (nukes or biological agents) during the Iran conflict or Gulf War?

And what makes you think that the US helped Iraq rebuild its nuclear reactor facility after Israel bombed it flat in 1981?

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Iraq used chemical weapons in the Iraq-Iran was, so that proves they at least Iraq used to have Chemical weapons.

[Jinef 2]

But chemical weapons aren't WMD though. Everyone used chemical warfare in WW1 and in medieval times we used to spread disease in besieged castles by catapulting week old dead bodies and animals into the courtyard.

In the gulf war GWB senior said something along the lines of "If Iraq uses any chemical weapons on allied forces then the USA will retaliate with extreme force"

Note how back then they said chemical weapons only. They underestimated him or they just knew he had no weapons.

Either way it looks bad for the Americans as now they are saying he has WMD as a tool to try and get support to go and "liberate" iraq

[Bernadotte 0]

Sharon Government Survives No-confidence Votes

...But not for long.

As soon as the new budget is passed, which guarantees another $150 million for expanding Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories, Sharon will lose ultra rightwing supporters and his government will collapse entirely.

(Personal comment:  Isn't it fucking amasing that the entire world can quietly watch another ~10,000 Israelis prepare to make their homes within Palestinian territory and do absolutely nothing... say absolutely nothing.  It makes me vomit. )

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 04 2002,20:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(Personal comment:  Isn't it fucking amasing that the entire world can quietly watch another ~10,000 Israelis prepare to make their homes within Palestinian territory and do absolutely nothing... say absolutely nothing.  It makes me vomit. )<span id='postcolor'>

I agree with you. Actually, I'm sick and tired of the world not doing or protesting about anything at all nowadays. Anything and everything that might hamper the all mighty war on terror or the foundation of it must be silenced. It's like the west is losing it's last bit of innocence. All the big players must be pleased. Russia must not be bothered with Chechnya. The alliance against terror need their support in the forthcoming war against terror - or Iraq (according to the Whitehouse) if you like. Israel must not be bothered too much with criticism of their behavior towards the palestinians. If they become anoyed they might not restrain themselves and attack Iraq for posing a possible threat with their short range missiles. If so, the support US needs of the other arab states in order to go for Saddam (or his oil) would surely be lost.

So who cares about some poor bastards that would like their own country/state or the right to live a life so many of us take for granted? The only thing that matters is oil and anything that might possibly threat US (companies) from gaining exclusive rights to Iraq's oil throug a future puppet regime is neglected. If US goes to war with Iraq US will finally manouvre into a position they've been longing for - restraining OPEC from controlling the price of oil. Who do you all think would benefit from that?

[brgnorway 0]

What are your thoughts on this one:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2402479.stm

It looks like they were killed by an american rocket. If so isn't it problematic that US officially engages in killing people without getting them at least handed out and tried in court? I find this suspect - especially because they were wanted by FBI.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Harthi was wanted by the FBI for his alleged links to al-Qaeda. <span id='postcolor'>

[Bernadotte 0]

Since 11 Sept 2001, I like to pick on Norway.  Whenever someone claims the WTC was attacked because Al Qaida is jealous of the US standard of living I ask them why Al Qaida doesn't attack wealthier nations like Norway.

Per Capita GDP

Switzerland  $43k  

Japan  $43k

Denmark  $37k  

Norway  $36k  

Singapore  $32k  

Germany  $30k  

Austria  $29k

United States  $29k

And when the subject is foreign aid, again, I can pick on Norway (or Sweden or Denmark or Holland... etc).

% of GDP Spent on Foreign Aid

Denmark 1%

Sweden .9%

Norway .9%

Holland .8%

France .6%

Canada .4%

Luxembourg .4%

Belgium .4%

.

United States .27% (.10% goes to Israel)

But in what way is the US ranked ahead of Norway and these other wealthier nations?

- money spent on foreign intelligence

- number of warlords and dictators supported

- number of extrajudicial assassinations

- number of foreign governments overthrown

- amount of military stationed in foreign lands

You get the picture.  I only wish they would.

[Bernadotte 0]

Sharon calls early elections

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">elections would take place on 4 February<span id='postcolor'>

[Balschoiw 0]

to Yemen case:

Funny how the officials are able to say that radio comms and explosives were found in the car. Check the picture. Even here in germany it takes some days to examine such a burnt car. In Yemen they seem to have higly skilled personel.

Killing on suspect again. There was no proof . The whole reasons for shooting the car were based on specualtions. Imagine this happen in the US or here in Europe. Noone would accept such Mafia methods. Except Israel of course...they are doing it all the time. Ever wondered how many terrorist leaders they have killed till now. Every palestinian seems to be a terrorist if you believe in Israel´s reports.

US are making themselves a hard time. If you do actions like this, you won´t improve your picture in foreign countries.

Almost gave me a laughter:

"US military personnel were deployed there earlier this year, also to co-ordinate a crackdown on militants.

On Sunday two people were injured when a helicopter carrying employees from an American oil company to Marib came under gunfire just after take-off and was forced to make an emergency landing at Sana'a airport."

No blood for oil ? Open your eyes.

[Bernadotte 0]

Some statistics and predictions just released about the Israeli economy:

- facing 3rd year in recession

- economy may shrink by 1%

- population growth remains high

- inflation now over 8%

- unemployment to reach 12%

- value of currency has plunged

- budget running deficit

- exports, imports, investment in fixed assests, private consumption, tax revenues all declining

Question:

How can spending on the military and Israeli settlements in the occupied territories continue to increase without provoking a financial crisis?

Answer:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israel's low foreign debt levels and financial support by the US government are expected to prevent a financial crisis.<span id='postcolor'>

In other words...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Nov. 05 2002,11:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">US are making themselves a hard time. If you do actions like this, you won´t improve your picture in foreign countries.<span id='postcolor'>

[Jinef 2]

The CIA has far too much publicity, it seems that whenever the CIA does something everyone knows. Talk about free media but does the CIA know anything about keeping secrets secret. What i find funny is that after the cold war when everyone was asking each other "did you know about our plan to..." that the Russians said they knew about most of America's new projects but the Americans had no ideabout the new weapons Russia was bringing out.

I think Norway is just a really nice place myself, they give loads out to the world, don't screw over everyone like most capitalist countries and are one of the cleanest countries in the world. Sweden also is nice because unlike everyone else including the british they don't sell their weapons off to anyone who wants them. And they hardly ever attack anyone even as part of a coalition, but if you attacked them you would have serious problems on your hands!

But thats silly just basing a country on how clean it is, look at america it's way down on the clean list but nowhere near as far down as we are! lol

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Nov. 05 2002,04:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If so isn't it problematic that US officially engages in killing people without getting them at least handed out and tried in court?<span id='postcolor'>

Not in the least. They wanted a global war* and now they've got one -- it just isn't going how they expected. Combatants on the battlefield don't get trials, they get killed. Spread the word: If you're AQ you're fair game.

*"We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it." -- OBL, 23 February 1998

Hypothetically of course, if I were a drinker, I can neither confirm nor deny that I'd raise a theoretical beer to toast the Predator operator who may or may not have pulled the alleged trigger on this prick-twister.

As for arrests and trials, the FBI tried to work with the Yemeni authorities after the Cole bombing but weren't even allowed to interrogate suspects. Hardly an environment conducive to law enforcement. We'll take 'em alive when we can (e.g. Binalshibh), but dead's okay, too.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Nov. 05 2002,04:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I find this suspect - especially because they were wanted by FBI.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but what do you mean by this?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Nov. 05 2002,11:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Funny how the officials are able to say that radio comms and explosives were found in the car. Check the picture. Even here in germany it takes some days to examine such a burnt car. In Yemen they seem to have higly skilled personel.

Killing on suspect again. There was no proof . The whole reasons for shooting the car were based on specualtions.<span id='postcolor'>

You're SPECULATING that we're speculating. Oh, the humanity.

Let me make sure I have this straight: U.S. officials say that they're responsible for the killing. You readily accept this as fact and begin blasting those evil American cowboys. However, U.S. officials ALSO say that al-Harethi was the top AQ operative in Yemen and one of the masterminds behind the Cole attack. Furthermore, YEMENI authorities say that the car contained explosives and that the car occupants were AQ. These fairly relevant little nuggets of info get written off as "speculation." Do I detect a double standard here?   

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Nov. 05 2002,11:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Imagine this happen in the US or here in Europe.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't have to imagine, I watched it happen. Multiplied by 500. Against civilians. You'll have to forgive me if I don't shed a tear for this individual, who as a martyr is no doubt happily oppressing his 72 virgins in Paradise as we speak.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Nov. 05 2002,11:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">US are making themselves a hard time. If you do actions like this, you won´t improve your picture in foreign countries.<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe so. But you know what? I'll bet al-Harethi won't be planning any more attacks.

Semper Fi

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 05 2002,19:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They wanted a global war* and now they've got one -- it just isn't going how they expected.<span id='postcolor'>

Ohh... how I wish I could agree with you, but I can't - at least not yet.  To me it seems to be going very much as they expected it, maybe even better.  And the US is already making the same mistake made in Vietnam - that of underestimating the enemy's numbers.  But like in Vietnam, this enemy where's no uniform and defies traditional counting methods.

You see, the world is full of suffering people.  The good news is that only a small minority of them will ever pursue violent means to combat that suffering.  The bad news is that the US believes the violent minority to be a finite number and that by eliminating that minority they will solve the problem.

That 6 enemy got offed today may provide a certain feel good factor, but you may be deceiving yourself to think that you've even begun to dent their real numbers or the real problem.

Sorry to say.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 05 2002,21:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ohh... how I wish I could agree with you, but I can't - at least not yet.  To me it seems to be going very much as they expected it, maybe even better.  And the US is already making the same mistake made in Vietnam - that of underestimating the enemy's numbers.  But like in Vietnam, this enemy where's no uniform and defies traditional counting methods.<span id='postcolor'>

The primary mistakes the U.S. military made in Vietnam were (1) trying to win an unconventional war w/ primarily conventional tactics (attrition warfare) and (2) failure to take the war to the enemy. So far, we have not repeated these blunders.

OBL's dream was to unite all Muslims in "Jihad" against the West. So far, that hasn't happened either.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 05 2002,21:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You see, the world is full of suffering people.  The good news is that only a small minority of them will ever pursue violent means to combat that suffering.  The bad news is that the US believes the violent minority to be a finite number and that by eliminating that minority they will solve the problem.

That 6 enemy got offed today may provide a certain feel good factor, but you may be deceiving yourself to think that you've even begun to dent their real numbers or the real problem.<span id='postcolor'>

We are under no illusions, and have a long, probably never-ending fight ahead of us -- similar to "Whack-A-Mole" on a global scale. It should also be noted that flying airplanes into our buildings and bombing our ships/embassies will not make us want to resolve "the real problem," i.e., whatever excuse is used to justify terrorism. "Eliminating that minority" has never been our objective; we're out to destroy AQ's ability to function. Big difference.

Semper Fi

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 05 2002,19:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll bet al-Harethi won't be planning any more attacks.<span id='postcolor'>So it's one down and an indeterminate number to go.  Sure am glad were not repeating the primary military mistakes of 'Nam.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 05 2002,22:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We are under no illusions, and have a long, probably never-ending fight ahead of us<span id='postcolor'>Why is that?  (I really want to know what you think.)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 05 2002,22:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It should also be noted that flying airplanes into our buildings and bombing our ships/embassies will not make us want to resolve "the real problem,"<span id='postcolor'>Seems to me (and a few others who contributed to the previous page) that America should merely stop causing or contributing to "the real problem" and leave resolving "the real problem" to the good nations of Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Holland, Canada, etc.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 05 2002,22:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">whatever excuse is used to justify terrorism.<span id='postcolor'>You make terrorism sound like a pasttime.  Well it ain't.  Just like cancer, terrorism is a reaction - not an action.  Suffering is no more an excuse for terrorism than smoking, drinking and radiation exposure are excuses for cancer.  But that the one can lead to the other is undeniable.  Learn this and you just might be able to avoid the never-ending fight you see ahead of you.