Changed the way units keep in formation

[suma 8]

New version is available on http://www.arma2.com/beta-patch.php which has changed the way units keep in formation - I call the the new way "soft" formation, and they should be less robotic than the old one, at the same time should provide better unit cohesion in the combat mode.

If you would like to get old behaviour back, you can disable the new behaviour for aware / combat+stealth individually so that you can see what has changed:

"AwareFormationSoft" enableAIFeature false
"CombatFormationSoft" enableAIFeature false

As the change is quite deep, I would like you to report if there are any missions (official or unofficial) which stopped working because of the change.

Besides of that, any praise is welcome - criticism not, but I will read it as well. :)

[markushaze 10]

Oh man:-) you guys are just great:-)

il post back ...

downloading now, testing in a few minutes .

Thanx a lot Suma and the rest of you all BIS Developers.

c ya

[fabrizio_t 58]

New version is available on http://www.arma2.com/beta-patch.php which has changed the way units keep in formation - I call the the new way "soft" formation, and they should be less robotic than the old one, at the same time should provide better unit cohesion in the combat mode.

If you would like to get old behaviour back, you can disable the new behaviour for aware / combat+stealth individually so that you can see what has changed:

"AwareFormationSoft" enableAIFeature false
"CombatFormationSoft" enableAIFeature false

As the change is quite deep, I would like you to report if there are any missions (official or unofficial) which stopped working because of the change.

Besides of that, any praise is welcome - criticism not, but I will read it as well. :)

Hi Suma,

can you elaborate a bit more on differences between new and old formation behaviour?

Just some basic hints. I'm very interested in that.

Thx for your efforts.

Edited November 20, 2009 by fabrizio_T

[markushaze 10]

Ok, just tied the mission Cipher v1.41b singleplayer, No problems, and very interesting. have to test a little more.

*update*

Voted yes, for both settings.

However, i just tried to play this same mission Cipher v1.41b SpecOp with a buddy in coop, and as soon as we start, take the bikes, the game crashes.

Now, i dont know, if this has anything to do with your changes, but in the betas before 60295 everything worked well.

Mods included in this test were:

CBA

JTD Fire and Smoke

VFAI

now trying again, maybe one of the mods messed it up....

*update*

tested with 60141 and no problems.

I dont suppose its the mods, more the mission, since wiper also heavily modified the AI.

Hope this can get sorted, because cipher is one hell of good mission :-)

will post back.

Edited November 20, 2009 by markushaze
wrong version number

[Beagle 684]

Did this new formation routine change anything in the vehicle formation department? As soon as there are more than 2 vehicles in a convoy the overall cohesion and speed drops drastically...its stop and go even in "safe" and "column" mode.

Maybe its just me, but I have the impression that it got worse in the last beta.

[Alex72 1]

Sounds good Suma. Ive seen people liking this a lot. Will test as soon as i can tonight and report back. And vote. :)

EDIT1: quick test without combat (No enemies and AWARE). WOW! The problem i had before with AI not forming on me in slopes - GONE! And everytime i stop after i been running etc - the AI form back perfectly! For a first test im very very impressed! Superb work BIS! Back to COMBAT testing.

EDIT2: Can only agree with those in favor of keeping this in both situations. AI working much much nicer now. :) Great job BIS.

EDIT3: Suma, wouldnt it possible to make the AI form on you like in AWARE state when we tell them to come back into formation even when they are in DANGER? Now we have to switch to AWARE and tell them to GET BACK. They do and then we have to set DANGER again. I mean, if we have our AI in DANGER and walk forward they will move cautiously - wich is great. But if we call them back - couldnt they run up to formation then IF there is no enemies seen? Like you have the AI in DANGER on a field and arent sure if there is enemies ahead. You run up a bit and see that there is no immediate danger so you call the ai into formation. If you do it not in DANGER they will take long time to get back. Maybe my idea isnt possible when there is total AI squads though. Just would be nice with a FAST way to round up your AI when in DANGER mode instead of having to change modes back and forth. That works ofcourse, but we would cut time down a bit and be more suffucient. Just something that struck me while testing the latest beta. :)

Thanks BIS

Alex

Edited November 21, 2009 by Alex72

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Will vote later. Haven't checked or observed what Alex says, and so far I've only tested in COMBAT mode. And, well, damn! I frigging love what I see so far in quick and dirty tests. Too many tears going to notice if they kept in fireteams (usmc infantry squad placed), but they stacked up nicely along walls etc. I as a SAW gunner, experienced that we had much fewer casualties during firefights than I'm used to under AI leadership.

[fabrizio_t 58]

I am voting later too, just did a few tests to check out the new behaviour.

One thing i noticed is that units seem not caring much anymore about "dofollow" commands issued while in combat mode.

I see my benchmark missions lasting more, a consequence of groups moving more cautiously? Groups seem less "rushy" judging by eye.

Also, i am dreaming or i am seeing squads -sometimes- moving by fireteams? After enemy contact sometimes it looks like groups tend to split?

Anybody had similar impressions?

Edited November 21, 2009 by fabrizio_T

[EricM 0]

After enemy contact sometimes it looks like groups tend to split?

Need to test that but I remember that BIS said something in an earlier patch about AI tending stick by pairs.. or was I dreaming ?

[Scrub 0]

You are not dreaming. I've a test scenario I have done since Arma 1 came out. Very simple, a small town, straight street, Spetznaz or other group in column,limited,aware, coming right down on patrol, and me alone with a silenced weapon. Up to this latest beta, I was able to pick off from 1/3 to all of them in the first engagement.. NOT NOW! I peeked around the corner, fired at the first in line, as soon as I tagged him, their formation exploded. I had pairs of guys on either side of the roadway, covering both ends of their wall, with at least one group advancing to cover, peeking... It's absolutely crazy good!

[fabrizio_t 58]

You are not dreaming. I've a test scenario I have done since Arma 1 came out. Very simple, a small town, straight street, Spetznaz or other group in column,limited,aware, coming right down on patrol, and me alone with a silenced weapon. Up to this latest beta, I was able to pick off from 1/3 to all of them in the first engagement.. NOT NOW! I peeked around the corner, fired at the first in line, as soon as I tagged him, their formation exploded. I had pairs of guys on either side of the roadway, covering both ends of their wall, with at least one group advancing to cover, peeking... It's absolutely crazy good!

Thx Scrub, good for my mind sanity ;)

[Scrub 0]

Hehe, I've usually about 15-20 min to play at a stretch with everything going on these days, and I can't pull myself away from this simple test. I thought, "Was I exaggerating, do they really offer that much action?" and I played the same setup 4 more times. I only barely made it through once.

Feel mercy for these bots at your peril! These guys mean business!

I have died 4 out of 5 times, and it is not because of cheating, or reflex issues - it's because of bad tactics, and odds. I'm alone with surprise, position and initiative against 9 other guys. As soon as it opens up, I loose all advantages. I use the surprise, suppressive fire forces away position, and the fanning out of troops takes away my initiative. I very quickly am responding to their, now fast paced, tempo. :D:D:D:D:D

I'm so happy I'm that guy tearing up at the movie hero victorious on top of the stack of dead bodies. lol

[mr_centipede 31]

first impression, I like it very much... I set up my own coloured group, order them to move somewhere, and to my pleasant surprise, the move in formation, I mean their own formation (in wedge though). very nice for cohesiveness. At the destination, they form up as if they are their own group. I feel sorry for those still playing ARMA1. or OFP for that matter. ARMA2 with this recent beta patch, have come a very long way...

Now, if only I could set the fireteam to have other formation than wedge... that would be even more awesome. And other thing, for UI, I suggest we also could have coloured diamonds according to the coloured group. I would help to locate where my coloured groups are located. But I that's different topic..

Very nice so far. is there any other magic out there? are there any 'test scenario' we could test out?

[fabrizio_t 58]

Another thing i've noticed with this build is that units other than the leader take point and advance/flank when needed.

One thing is not improved is urban CQB though.

Formation still needs to be tighter in a urban environment.

Also units are still "confused" and have slow reactions at short range: they don't open fire quick enough on known nearby enemies well in line of fire and i wish they use grenades a lot more.

Despite existing CQB problems latest build is definetely another leap into the right direction.

Thx BIS.

Edited November 21, 2009 by fabrizio_T

[mr_centipede 31]

Found an anomaly with unit placement radius. Apparently with this new formation change, some units got seperated from squad leader.

Here's a repro:

1. Place a USMC Squad

2. In squad leader, put placement radius 1000

3. Preview and you should see only the three team leader with the squad leader. The rest of the group is at the same spot as we place them in the editor

[Scrub 0]

This could be the same reason the APC only picks up 3-4 units and zips off, leaving the rest to hoof it.

[suma 8]

Here's a repro:

1. Place a USMC Squad

2. In squad leader, put placement radius 1000

3. Preview and you should see only the three team leader with the squad leader. The rest of the group is at the same spot as we place them in the editor

Great repro, fixed in 60298

[Herr_kalashnikov 10]

Like the new formations alot. Tested it out on a new campaign run and its great.

For instance on the 1st real mission ur team (except teamleader who overlooks) gets send into a village to sweep it up. I noticed 2 AI grouping up and started to flank right. I thought ok ill take left and noticed that the last AI was following me. So basicly the AI was flanking the village on it self. Was a great experience and it almost felt like playing with real players at some moments.

[mr.g-c 6]

Here comes your praise:

Its really Great, now fighting in squads with AI makes much more fun!

You are impressing me more and more Suma, i never thought such "Gameplay-Bugs" will ever be solved by patching, (nor by a new product :p ) as many people tend to spread the rumor that BIS Leaders don't play their own games anymore.... Very good to see that we were wrong.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Instead of the new command enableAIFeature, which seems to act globally, wouldn't it be better to use commands disableAI and enableAI "AwareFormationSoft" etc for single individuals or whole groups (most probable use)?

[nkenny 1057]

There is some odd behavior with the 'Advance' command as well.

1. Create a unit of 5 or more soldiers.

2. Order Unit 3 to 'advance'

3.a Notice unit 5 has 'attatched' itself to unit 3 and will follow it.

3.b Same behavior is unit 3 is a player; unit 5 break formation to follow.

This related to new formation code?

-k

[Helmut_AUT 0]

Seems like a strictly enforced "Buddy System", not the worst kind of "bug".

[twisted 128]

the new formations are really good. But it would help if the AI in formation to react to getting wounded or another team mate getting shot near them. right now they walk together and work together in moving but if one gets shot even right in front of its buddies they do not scatter or take evasive/cover. so its still easy to shoot one then the next then the next.

[mr_centipede 31]

60588 seems to improve the friendly fire problem

[Alex72 1]

This is not related exactlly to this topic, but its just an idea around how AI groups work with synched WP's between eachother.

When you have 2 individual groups with a MOVE WP's each, and when WP's is synched then the first group coming to that WP will wait for the second group. So far so good.

However when the second group comes - wich is basically the squad leader - the first group starts to move again to the next WP after that. So the problem here is that the group that comes second will be very spread out. Some AI behind the leader gets stuck behind objects and needs time to go around etc. I observed groups with synched WP's and they were always very spread out. When we want attacking big forces that we synch - we want them to be organized. At least as much as possible without too much spread so now there is only leaders and a few AI behind them that starts the attack.

Wouldnt it be better if the first group to arrive waits for the LAST soldier before moving? That way everyone have time to get back into formation etc.

Possible to fix Suma? Or am i missing something vital regarding this?

Alex