RESEARCH - Non BIS made Helicopter Flight models, What do you want?

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Just to prefix this post with a notice that I'm in no way against or for any changes, just doing a bit of analyzing of posts compared to results.

I think the poll questions are quite simple to understand. But I admit the subsequent discussion does muddy the water a bit.

The proposed Fm changes wont stop people using a keyboard and mouse to fly. It just means they wont get as much benefit from it as joystick users do. Where is the community splitting difference there?

What I am looking into wont make it impossible to use keyboard and mouse control, but to get the best out of it you are probably going to need a joystick.

Now that you put it like that, I can agree, there is no "community-splitting" (I really hate that term tho), if you read the poll choices, the way they are worded made me think that second option meant impossible to fly without a joystick. My TIR vs Freelook key argument wasn't based on ease of use, it was based on the actual binary-type ability to use it at all. Having to put extra effort to achieve same results isn't really an issue in my opinion.

You could put it like that but I think it gives the wrong impression of what im trying or even able to achieve.

Ofcourse, I wasn't trying to sway anyone to vote either way or undermine your efforts, I was just under the impression Group A were associated with the first poll option, and they advocated the "easier but better simulating a chopper with cargo" FM, while the Group B were associated with the second poll option and were advocating "harder, harsher, but better simulating chopper without cargo" FM, hence I said that Group A might have it right since the helicopters in a milsim like ArmA are usually put to combat use and carry troops or cargo and you will rarely fly them empty just for sightseeing in a combat scenario.

The degree we are able to change the flight model is realistically quite limited. Using some crafty tricks i've developed I believe I can push it a bit more. But basically all i'm doing is increasing the sensitivity of the flight models on some aircraft to make them more responsive. So the real questions is what do people want?

The current (simplistic) FM

Or

A far more sensitive and challenging FM.

Well that's what the poll is for. I'll be honest I was on the fence when I made the first post. But tonight's results, conversations and MP tests have pushed me firmly over to the 'Sim' side.

Certainly, I'm in no way saying current engine FM is fully rehaulable or expecting such. My view on the poll was probably wrong due to reasons I've written above.

So you are saying that we shouldn't increase the FM sensitivity because it will exclude the less hardcore players? I don't buy that at all.

Nothing we are doing is going to bring MS Flight Sim standards or realism to ArmA2. The poll proves that the majority of people want more challenging aircraft to fly and fight with. But just because it inconveniences a minority is no excuse not to do it.

As said before, I'm not saying "Don't do that because Jimmy that just got the game and has no clue how to fly it won't be able to do as easily as he can with the BIS choppers", what I believe I was saying is "Jimmy the all around keyboard flyboy that practices ingame choppers all the time and puts effort to learn new flying techniques, handling modes, flight models and whatever can't fly your chopper because when he presses his bank left keyboard key, the helo does 3 barrel rolls". Might be an extreme example, but I think it should convey well what I'm saying, hopefully I got my point across this time. :)

There are literally dozens of threads pleading for an FM improvement to something closer to a "simulation" standard on these forums. I can probably dig out a hundred emails and PMs begging us change the FM on all the BIS helos for people in arma1 and 2.

I'm not denying or trying to disprove that, I'm not against realism. Previous paragraphs probably explain it well enough.

But I've always made an effort with our addons to go with the majority community demand and recently there is to be a lot of demand for a more realistic FM. I just cant see a valid argument stop us trying to make one.

Ofcourse, I'm not spitting on your work, quite contrary, I've enjoyed many RKSL releases, or trying to push you into stopping you to do it. Just trying to make understand what your goals of the poll are. Realistic under load vs Realistic no cargo or Arcade vs More-Simlike.

If you were going for the Realistic - Under load vs. Realistic - No cargo flight models, I'd have said go with the Realistic - Under Load since that's the situations the helicopters are in the game most of the time.

But since you've clarified that you're polling for opinions on the Arcade, more gamey type vs. Harder, More simulation like type flight model, I can most certainly say I'd rather see a more Simulation like FM (Ofcourse I wouldn't like if it meant that the chopper will do 3 rolls if I slightly tap my bank key. But you've already answered that question, and that wasn't your intention on doing, and even if it did, it's not in my right to tell you otherwise, since it's your work, your effort and it's well appriciated). ;)

Edited October 27, 2009 by Sniperwolf572

[th3flyboy 0]

I would like to see the harder flight models, but Rock I have one request, is it possible to set up helis like the KA-50 and KA-52 to be able to have the rotor blades intersect like in the real aircraft? Recently a KA-50 was downed because the rotors intersected. The end result was one dead general and an exploded KA-50. A perfect example of rotor blade intersections can be achieved in DCS Black Shark by doing too hard of maneuvers.

[Drew 10]

good initiative mate...

would go for a more difficult (than BIS) flight model...to the point it would require a learning curve, and some training/experience to master.

I don't fly with mouse and keyboard (i know it is possible, even though i can't), i prefer not to fly at all if i forget to plug in my joystick...

note that all i have flown so far was FS series, as well as glider iRL.

I agree with this as well allthough I do fly with a mouse and keyboard, but I also use a joystick from time to time... I believe it should be much harder then it is now.

[Tankbuster 1746]

It's the million dollar question, isn't it, Rock?

Having messed around in your A1 stuff, I thought you got the balance just right there. They looked good, did everything you'd expect but weren't too hard to fly.

Discouraging FNPs is a worthy idea, but with the greatest of respect, I say that's better left to the mission designer rather than the addon designers.

It seems the poll is going towards making them hard to fly and if that's the way the wind is going, I suppose I could live with it. By all means make them harder for keyboard uers to fly, but spare the joystick users, if that's at all possible. Joystick users are likely to be fliers already and it'd be a shame to scare them off with an uber twitchy FM.

It would certainly be cool if the birds could weight up as they get loaded. Whatever happens, I'd love to see that.

By all means make them 'harder' to fly, but I'd prefer them to still be learnable for an average pilot (like me) :)

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

I would like to see the harder flight models, but Rock I have one request, is it possible to set up helis like the KA-50 and KA-52 to be able to have the rotor blades intersect like in the real aircraft? Recently a KA-50 was downed because the rotors intersected. The end result was one dead general and an exploded KA-50. A perfect example of rotor blade intersections can be achieved in DCS Black Shark by doing too hard of maneuvers.

Sorry mate but that would require scripting and i'm not getting into that right now.

...Discouraging FNPs is a worthy idea, but with the greatest of respect, I say that's better left to the mission designer rather than the addon designers.

How is that achieved? Fixed pilot slots? Play a public domination, evo or challenge game and see what fixed slots do to the game. Kiddy pilots can kill a MP game in seconds.

It seems the poll is going towards making them hard to fly and if that's the way the wind is going, I suppose I could live with it. By all means make them harder for keyboard uers to fly, but spare the joystick users, if that's at all possible. Joystick users are likely to be fliers already and it'd be a shame to scare them off with an uber twitchy FM.

There is no way to divide the two flight models. I wish that I could work the sort of miracles people seem to be expecting. I'm limited by the engine, whatever - if anything does - come from this its not going to be a radically different. Just a bit different.

It would certainly be cool if the birds could weight up as they get loaded. Whatever happens, I'd love to see that.

Ask BIS for that. Its outside of the scope of this project for the moment.

By all means make them 'harder' to fly, but I'd prefer them to still be learnable for an average pilot (like me) :)

Everything is learnable given patience and practice.

[dkraver 1]

I voted for the harder more sim like setup. I really liked the difference between BIS choppers and RKSL choppers in Arma. So a even better FM is more than welcome.

Just a thought about the loaded vs unloaded FM. Dont know if it is possible. But couldnt it be scripted in so if a chopper is carrying cargo (thinking RKSL cargo addon) or if x amount of the seats are in use in the chopper it will use the heavy flight model.

And if the chopper only has crew or crew + a few of the seats taken it will use the "light" flight model??

so have it like

if cargo attached. heavy = true

if more than 1/3 of seats taken. (should change between choppers). heavy = true

else. light = true

But as i said above i dont know if its even possible.

[EDIT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by th3flyboy

It would certainly be cool if the birds could weight up as they get loaded. Whatever happens, I'd love to see that.

Ask BIS for that. Its outside of the scope of this project for the moment.

hmm answered while i was writing or??

Edited October 27, 2009 by dkraver

[BigMorgan 11]

Even tho it might not be the same, it would be as if the game included lean, vertical lean and such, but was only available to people with headtracking or such.

Just my 2 cents.

To counter your 2 cents with a nickle, show me a headtracking system that costs $20-$30, which is what a low-end joystick (suitable IMO for Arma as opposed to, say, a full HOTAS setup for F4.0 or a yoke, rudder pedals and throttle quadrant for MSFS) costs. :cool:

It seems the poll is going towards making them hard to fly and if that's the way the wind is going, I suppose I could live with it. By all means make them harder for keyboard uers to fly, but spare the joystick users, if that's at all possible. Joystick users are likely to be fliers already and it'd be a shame to scare them off with an uber twitchy FM.

I don't think "joystick fliers" would be scared off. I'll bet a large number of Arma players that own a joystick own one mostly to play flight simulators, whether they're modern combat flight sims like LOMAC, DCS Blackshark, F4.0 and the like or more general sims like MSFS and X-Plane. At least I presume I'm not the only one.

Edited October 27, 2009 by BigMorgan

[smiley nick 51]

If this is about only ajusting the flight senisitivy of the helicopters, could you not aceive the same results if a user incresed their senisitivy settings for joystick/mouse in the ingame settings?

just my thoughts

[spirit6 51]

Maybe we just have drunk pilots on our server but most of our airforce crashes or gets shots like an elephant in the desert.

I dont realy see how harder steering makes more fun or helps in that way.

[Alpha-Kilo 36]

I would favour a flight model with adjustable controls: "Easy" for casual mouse-and-keyboard gameplay and "realistic" if a fully programmable flight stick is available.

Is this possible, at all?

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

...hmm answered while i was writing or??

i started writing that reply at 10 am and just got distracted a lot before pressing submit :) Its been a long day so far.

If this is about only ajusting the flight senisitivy of the helicopters, could you not aceive the same results if a user incresed their senisitivy settings for joystick/mouse in the ingame settings?

just my thoughts

Not and get the same results.

Maybe we just have drunk pilots on our server but most of our airforce crashes or gets shots like an elephant in the desert.

I dont realy see how harder steering makes more fun or helps in that way.

Well for one more sensitivity means more agility, faster response time, increased accuracy and precision (for those that practice).

Once ive finished the current project im working on i'll mock up an example.

The problem is the flight model tweaks will have a different impact on each different model. So one sample wont really show you much. Historically regardless of what i release people will moan about it anyway.

I would favour a flight model with adjustable controls: "Easy" for casual mouse-and-keyboard gameplay and "realistic" if a fully programmable flight stick is available.

Is this possible, at all?

Nope, not without swapping models out on the fly.

[flufball 10]

On the assumption that I've understood the situation correctly, I would personally go with the opinion of your group of experts. If the limitations in the engine prevent you from creating a flight model of simulation level then I would much prefer to compromise and work within the engine.

[dkraver 1]

i started writing that reply at 10 am and just got distracted a lot before pressing submit :) Its been a long day so far.

Hehe didnt mean it like that :p. Was more if it answered the question i made??

The one about if it was possible to put both parts (light and heavy) into the FM and the in it have some values decide if its heavy or light.

So as standard have it light. But if you as an example attached cargo from RKSL Cargo addon on the chopper it will have a value in the FM saying heavy = true and the the FM would change. When the cargo get dropped the value would change to heavy = false.

And in the same way have in change between light and heavy according to if an example more than 1/3 of the seats in the chopper is in use.

Was thinking since the flight model change when the tail rotor is damaged there must be some way to change the FM or??

[Alex72 1]

I would favour a flight model with adjustable controls: "Easy" for casual mouse-and-keyboard gameplay and "realistic" if a fully programmable flight stick is available.

Is this possible, at all?

Yes its possible. It was made in ArmA1 with a F18 addon. I dont remember how you changed it though. Maybe it was 2 different PBO's.

[Daniel 0]

I'm looking forward to seeing how a more complex/realistic/refined flight model plays using mouse and keyboard. It's either going to be even more fun, or it'll persuade me to buy a decent stick. Win/win.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Yes its possible. It was made in ArmA1 with a F18 addon. I dont remember how you changed it though. Maybe it was 2 different PBO's.

It was Franze's F18's I think, the problem with it is that he swapped the actual vehicles, which was kinda clunky and would probably have additional complications to solve in MP and whatnot.

I don't believe it is a good solution to the problem anyways.

[b00ce 160]

"Jimmy the all around keyboard flyboy that practices ingame choppers all the time and puts effort to learn new flying techniques, handling modes, flight models and whatever can't fly your chopper because when he presses his bank left keyboard key, the helo does 3 barrel rolls". Might be an extreme example, but I think it should convey well what I'm saying, hopefully I got my point across this time. :)

If "Jimmy" would take the time to change his keyboard settings it would be a lot easier. Here is how BIS SHOULD have made flight controls by default. :j:

W & S - Throttle

A & D - Rudder, not bank left or whatever

Mouse - pitch and roll.

With these simple changes and you might as well have a joystick. (I actually do better with this than my joystick, but that's just me. :p )

[Daniel 0]

b00ce, don't you ever use keys for banking? Suggest using a mix of keyboard and mouse (depending on severity/finesse) for the same flight controls if you're not using a stick. The BIS key mapping is spot on.

[Alex72 1]

Yeah im using keyb banking whenever i fly with it. Its there to help doing sharp and hard bankings/rolls. As an aid to the mouse. You know with the keyb by heart how much it will go when holding the button down. Its a beaten in thing.

Definatelly better than just mouse banking. IMO.

My HOTAS is nicer to fly with though. :)

[Scrub 0]

Historically regardless of what i release people will moan about it anyway

How true. So make yourself happy. And if, by chance, you happen to include some of us that would be nice too! :p

The effort and quality being discussed alone is noteworthy, even if it's simply an example for others.

Cheers

[Alex72 1]

It was Franze's F18's I think, the problem with it is that he swapped the actual vehicles, which was kinda clunky and would probably have additional complications to solve in MP and whatnot.

I don't believe it is a good solution to the problem anyways.

Your probably correct. I dont know how those things work. But i remember Franze did make 2 FM versions.

EDIT: Nah we wont moan Rock! If someone moans about your work you know theres something not working correctly in that particular persons head.

Alex

[b00ce 160]

Daniel;1474601']b00ce' date=' don't you ever use keys for banking? Suggest using a mix of keyboard and mouse (depending on severity/finesse) for the same flight controls if you're not using a stick. [/quote']

Hmm, I do have trouble pulling up in a sharp turn some times, nothing to do with actually doing it, it's just I have a tendency to add a wobble on the Z axis... I'll assign "X" to pull up and see how that works out. :)

The BIS key mapping is spot on.

I'd have to disagree, but that's just me. :D

[LeftSkidLow 1]

I was a helicopter flight instructor for a while, I don't really think you could make it realistic within the limitations of Arma2. That said, I think it would be great if you could get it to work. BTW, your group B players are generally going to care more about flipping switches, startup procedures, and other irrelevant things to the flight model. I could care less if I only hit 1 button to start the engines, as long as it flies right.

[4 IN 1 0]

I am totally group A supporter, and I dont think the "gamers" view of realistic is "that" realistic

But given your position, I would do something in between(middle range weighting) if I were you

Edited October 28, 2009 by 4 IN 1

[Steakslim 1]

I'm down for a more difficult flight model for newer user made addons, and even the stock vehicles though that's up to BIS.