Selling Mods and Scripts for Profit

[Preacher1974 0]

I'm curious as to people's thoughts on selling mods and scripts for profit. I ask this not from the perspective of a modder and a scripter (as I can't do either), but as a customer who wishes he could buy them. MS Flight Simulator has a thriving ecosystem of 3rd-party commercial mods - why can't ArmA have the same?

Does anyone know if BI's license prohibits people from charging for custom-made content?

ArmA's modding community is amazing and I'm grateful for what people produce, especially things like ACE which is just awesome. The only problem with many great mods is that they are made in people's spare time, often with limited bug, regression, and compatibility testing and usually no support. I (and many others) would LOVE to be able to pay people for their hard work, and know that in return we will get a well designed, well tested and supported product. And DON'T say that I should just donate to mod makers (which I have done anyway in the past), as you're missing the point.

I've heard that this has been raised in the past and met with a highly emotional negative response, which I find irrational and puzzling. If you don't like something, just don't buy it and move on with your life.

Thoughts?

[riffleman 20]

If anyone try to sell script or mode,than there is less users and people who know about you.if it is free than people appreciate you and remember always when they play or use things made by users.for example sanctuary ww4 mode1 is now become popular and all appreciate his great work.

[W0lle 1044]

Download the editing tools and read the licence agreement, you have the answer then. That's for the Mods and Addons.

Simply put: The licence agreement prohibits commercial use of the editing tools.

Why should you pay for scripts? There is no way to effectively protect them from being copied and used again. If two pay and 10,000 copy, where's the point?

Besides all this: Back in my FS days that "pay for this, pay for that" attitude really bothered me. And then pay again when the next FS version is released.

This community exists since more than 8 years and so far it survived without the authors being paid for their work.

[Preacher1974 0]

Download the editing tools and read the licence agreement, you have the answer then. That's for the Mods and Addons.

Simply put: The licence agreement prohibits commercial use of the editing tools.

Bugger

Why should you pay for scripts? There is no way to effectively protect them from being copied and used again. If two pay and 10,000 copy, where's the point?

Correct, but his applies to most online content these days. You would need to provide an incentive for people to purchase (ie low cost, fast download, frequent updates, good support, etc).

Besides all this: Back in my FS days that "pay for this, pay for that" attitude really bothered me. And then pay again when the next FS version is released.

This community exists since more than 8 years and so far it survived without the authors being paid for their work.

It doesn't bother me at all - I would happily pay (as I do now) for great gaming content. I don't want to settle for just "surviving", but want to be able to use the best content available and let people make a living from it.

Anyway, it's all a moot point with BI's license, but it would be nice if they would reconsider in future.

[evilnate 0]

Preacher;1417571']It doesn't bother me at all - I would happily pay (as I do now) for great gaming content. I don't want to settle for just "surviving"' date=' but want to be able to use the best content available and let people make a living from it.

Anyway, it's all a moot point with BI's license, but it would be nice if they would reconsider in future.[/quote']

I don't think there is any regulations that prevent you from making donations to individuals that make scripts/mods/missions.

[Wolfrug 0]

Here's another thing:

I don't play FS, but I figure the thing there is to "simulate flight" and to look at the pretty models whizzing about the world - e.g. a very much single-player experience, amirite? In this situation buying a product and putting it into one's own game for one's own amusement is no different than buying that expansion pack in the store, or that DLC from the online marketplace. Since it's yours, and yours alone to enjoy.

This does not on any level apply to the OFP/ArmA/Arma 2 community. Sure, there's single-player gaming, and fooling around in the editor, and making little missions for oneself - in fact I'd say this is how the majority of the time spent with the games work out. But there's still an end product - which is the mission (or in some cases, the campaign). Making a good mission, be it SP or MP, eventually means you'll want to publish it. Whether in a close circle of friends, your squad, or for the general public, you'll want to share it with someone else.

This is where the problems arise - if you've used your bought addon (or script, or mod) in that mission, then you'll have to provide everyone who'd want to play it with said products. This is still 'ok' I suppose within that close circle of friends - but when it comes to public consumption, you HAVE to make sure the addon is available to all. If this includes each and every one BUYING the addon separately, then you're not going to get a lot of coverage. On the other hand, if you with the addon also bought the right to hand it out to anyone you'd like, then the 'business' of addon making isn't going to be very lucrative at all, and I'd imagine few would be terribly interested in a one-off deal.

Also, consider the fact many addons might use proxies or parts from BIS-made addons - maybe even considerable parts (say, you make a variant of the M1A2) : how is it justifiable to "sell" that as your own work?

Etc etc. Essentially, there are very good reasons why there isn't a culture of buying and selling addons in this community. Hopefully this answered some of your thoughts.

Regards,

Wolfrug

[kavoven 4]

There was a rather big case in the... first year of OFP I think, where modding tools weren't available. The Mod was called Power of War - Mod and was developed by two leading guys of Operation-flashpoint.de, the biggest OFP page of that days(Götterfunke and someone else).

It featured base construction and so on, some reskinned units and...can't remember, I only played the demo. (Kind of an early version of CTI)

It was sold via publisher and if I remember right, BIS wasn't amused about it and some people even speculated that this mod was the reason for the late release of the editing tools during the OFP times.

[NeoArmageddon 957]

This does not on any level apply to the OFP/ArmA/Arma 2 community. Sure, there's single-player gaming,

I think ArmA is more a game, than FS is (but they are both simulations). And if you want to play (not to simulate) you wont buy expensive maps or usermade addons (think of a 15 Euro warcraft 3 map...*gasp* ^^).

But if you want to go further in simulation of a soldiers life... buy VBS. The expansionpacks for VBS costs a lot (like the airports and planes for FS).

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

Am I missing something about Preacher's argument here? There are loads and loads of free mods and scripts out there for a2 already and it's still early days...

Why do you want to pay for it when you don't have to?!?!?!?

[UNN 0]

You would need to provide an incentive for people to purchase (ie low cost, fast download, frequent updates, good support, etc).

Perhaps you don't quite appreciate how much time and effort can go into making Mods and Addons. Who is going to meet the expense of "fast downloads, frequent updates, good support" probably not you? If you expect all that at a low cost, from some guy on the forums?

[Sennacherib 0]

i'm agaisnt. everything is paying today, a little bit of free, this is cool.

I don't speak for all the addons makers but for me this is a pleasure to share my work with the community. the 3d modelling is an hobby, and I would not to be annoyed by guys who have paid an addon, because when you sell something you have responsabilities towards the customers.

And personally I'm tired of having to spend money all the time

[celery 8]

There's so much free high quality content that it's simply stupid to charge for something you made, even if we forget that it's illegal. Despite that I own the OFP unofficial campaign pack "Between the Lines" that came in a DVD box and to me it's a collector's item. :rolleyes:

Personally, receiving money for my missions would just feel uncomfortable, it's bad enough that I get a hero's welcome on every other server. :p

[R0adki11 3945]

I only made addons as a hobby, i dont expect any return out of it, i just want to make the game a bit better if i can. Or to give enjoyment for the community of i release an addon.

If you started paying for content i wouldn't buy it and it wouldn't work as this community is very established with many great individuals and addon teams, if you want paid content go play WOW or some other game like that.

[cjsoques 0]

In the realm of Microsoft Flight Simulator. I can understand why high-quality addons are no longer free. The answer is quality.

For example, for Microsoft 5.0/5.1 I had > 1600 aircraft in my library that I could choose from. However they all pretty much flew the same, all shared the same cockpit for the most part, and just looked different on the outside, had no moving parts, and were free

For FSX, you need to have high quality textures, all moving parts, advanced features and effects, excellent flight model, new missions for the aircraft, detailed and realistic cockpit to make it all stand up to FSX standards. For that it requires the amount of effort need to pay somehow, however with FS5 I myself was able to make my own basic aircraft in a matter of minutes...not so anymore.

Same goes for ARMA2, I'd easily pay for a high-quality addon because it simply takes many man hours to develop a highly-detailed addon because I understand how much time and effort it takes.

[Synide 0]

Currently this concept is prohibited. As others have stated.

Wolle noted... "This community exists since more than 8 years and so far it survived without the authors being paid for their work." in his first post.

Increasingly, community members creating community content for mana, kudos and/or pleasure is quite literally 'work'.

It requires a not insignificant amount of effort on the part of the community members to get an end result. I am constantly amazed by the shear amount of effort people put into things especially since they do not have access to the same level of information regarding the development environment they are working with as the BIS employees and subcontractors do. While this is somewhat understandable there will come a time when this modding community will see dimishing returns.

I take my hat of to people like Q who have initiated efforts to streamline the community content creation process for all concerned of their own volition. Personally, I cannot invest the time and effort anymore in evaluating/researching and developing content for a pat on the back and a cheers mate.

As technology surges ever forward so to does gaming companies cost of ownership and invariably these filter through to end users in various forms.

This sort of model you are asking about is not very common in the gaming industry and there are many reasons for and against it. These sorts of discussions I'm sure will continue in regard to many gaming companies products and services not just BIS.

I realize that many people would not share these sorts of views or even perhaps appreciate them.

It's interesting to note that a recent news item regarding Blizzard Entertainment touched on this same sort of topic. They are apparently keen on creating an official marketplace for mod-makers of maps for the up comming Starcraft II.

I'm sure many other gaming companies will be interested to see how they do with it.

Anyway, just some spurious thoughts.

[celery 8]

community members creating community content for mana

I never looked at it this way, thanks for the lols.

[nettrucker 142]

There's so much free high quality content that it's simply stupid to charge for something you made, even if we forget that it's illegal. Despite that I own the OFP unofficial campaign pack "Between the Lines" that came in a DVD box and to me it's a collector's item. :rolleyes:

Personally, receiving money for my missions would just feel uncomfortable, it's bad enough that I get a hero's welcome on every other server. :p

I also purchased "Between the lines" when it came out. It was released by XMP. But the quality of the campaign was far beyond the BIS product. if I'm not wrong there were no custom speech and radio files in that campaigns.

And I doubt that they ever got permission for release from BIS side.

OMG thought that I was the only one who purchased that "none authorized version" as it states on the cover.LOL:D

kind regards

nettrucker

Edited September 12, 2009 by nettrucker

[binkster 0]

What if you wanted to pay someone for their time/work? Like lets say a Squad/clan paid a mod group to make a custom mod for them and only them? Even though they are paying for the work and not the addon itself would this be considered against the license agreement?

[W0lle 1044]

There's no difference, in the end they got paid for what they produced (the addon). Paying for the work or the product is the same thing just in different terms.

The licence agreement prohibits that you can sell the work that has been created with the tools, if you accept the money for the models you have done or the time you spent on creating them is irrelevant.

[sparks50 0]

In theory Im all for it, it fits well into the "sim" thing. BI could even have some sort of license/compensation system set up so they demand a percent for every sale.

But I dont think the community is around the game is large enough, and the modding done too far seems to be too limited for many tasks without source code/professional tools. And the engine is limited itself in several areas.

I would absolutly pay for a simulator grade Apache helicopter with all the right toys In Arma 2.

But is Arma 2, like FSX, capable to be made such high quality addons? No, it does not seem that way.

Edited September 19, 2009 by sparks50

[Dead3yez 0]

Against it.

A system in place that allows addon makers to sell their addons means less addons publicly available due to people wanting to make profit. It's not good for the community or having legal issues put on BIS.

[[aps]gnat 28]

Against it.

The community has proven its not required.

Great addons and great people supporting the rest of us hackers

REALLY appeciate the Greats of the community (they know who they are ;) ) providing their free support to us.

If it was to go to a payware scheme, I think it would mean support like that would dry up. Knowledge would be kept under lock and key.

(some might say it is now, I say bull! )

BUT, none of the free stuff should be allowed to used by VBS users (not so much the players, the Corporate or Military users and the Paid developers). If they want it, they should be paying for it.

[Slapstick 10]

Emotional arguments for/against aside, the biggest problem with paid add ons is everyone in a game/server needs the same add ons. When the add ons are free that isn't a problem as people can just go download what they need if they want. But if the add ons are proprietary then it would be difficult to find a server that allowed you to use them, and unless the mod sold really really well it would be a pretty empty server.

On the other hand, I would happily pay for professionally made single player campaigns.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Against it!

I am, sorry, was, an avid flight simulator enthusiast since FS98. I took PPL/A theory at age 14, which for obvious reasons I couldn't complete :) Hmm, odd how so many years passed without redoing it... Oh well...

I have my walls painted with huge aerial maps (ICAO), IFR route maps and whatnot. I always have my Maycom scanner ready. I subscribed to costly paper delivered official maps (about three full binders) monthly arriving with SID & STAR and plenty other aeronautical maps and information. That's just some background info on how crazy I was about flight simming.

With FS2004 and FSX it all died for me. Although I agree that some payware has delivered some very good addons, many seems to believe that payware is automatically good. The freeware makers suffers greatly. Only the payware are discussed as being good enough (for the most part).

The times where better when the occasional theft disputes where solved there and then by the aid of the communities themselves (as today in Arma community). Nowadays for payware addon makers in the flightsim Business, it is handled with laywers and lawsuits. It's just too damn capitalistic for me to feel any joy in all this. Nothing is done from idealistic standpoints anymore, it's only about the cash. Where is the fun in that?

Therefore, my big romance on flightsimming was killed by the advent of its payware industry.

Also agree bigtime with Slapstick: What's the point of paying for addons when most servers disallow addon use?

I also strongly disagree on protecting content. It will be hacked/cracked/backward enginered asap anyway, making it available at least to those serious about it. Many people wants to do their own small adjustments on addons, at least we do to suit our own "clan use". Example: Many flightsim addon used dll gauges to "protect" their work. Now I can't change the instruments so that it reads how my friends real Piper instrument looks and operates like. Many gauges have (well, had) many operational deficiancies that I can't even fix myself.

Off course, releasing such a fix publically (other than to the devs themselves) would be a bad ide. But when a stupid individual does (will happen), it is handled by the community (addon taken offline). There is not need to protect it imho. Protecting it means I can't make my own fixes, making it a hell of a lot less attractive in the first place.

[sanctuary 19]

Although I agree that some payware has delivered some very good addons, many seems to believe that payware is automatically good. The freeware makers suffers greatly. Only the payware are discussed as being good enough (for the most part).

A bit off topic,

It is not only related to FS serie and their commercial addons, i always noticed in nearly every boards over the internet that a freeware software release seem to be percieved by the majority of people as something automatically mediocre, not worthy of their time.

Just talk about an awesome and incredible genius piece of freeware on most boards, you'll be lucky if it generates 2 pages of discussion unless you are on the discussion board owned by the creators of such freeware.

Now talk about a stupid, boring cloned hundred of time half witted commercial game but heavily advertised by the medias, and you have a hundred of pages of "discussions" in no time.

Now back to the subject,

if someone building addons would like to get paid for his work in something else than only the good karma feeling at noticing lots of people enjoying truly his creations, he could just setup a paypal donation system so people thinking they should reward him in money could do it.

For some people creating freeware or other games modding content, it has worked.