New Rules of Modding for Arma 2 : Mod "clans" and "Projects" only ?

[wipman 1]

Hi, i was going to do a camoed M4's pack for the ArmA, but i dropped the idea as soon as

i found out that i don't had any idea of the UV maps, shaders etc; also ain't got any idea

of modeling so... i can't fix the errors present in the MLOD example models that we were

luckly provided with. Is not bad at all, we've a better game with better graphics, better

models and more coding, that's very good; the only bad point is that it unables the thiefs

and casual addon makers like me, few maniouver space because we're not that good, and...

for make it bad, it's better to don't do it. Our problem as community is that we haven't

much or just enough addon makers good enough as for do it at least as well as the game's

content. It's a problem of the number of good ones that we loosen or we kicked with our

stupid behaviour, it's not really a problem of the game. Let's C ya

[sickboy 13]

I was always curious about that. I heard it was by trying to impose restrictions and working practices on people that didn't want them or want their work released as 'open source' community property?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If there are any words about restrictions, work practices or open-source-ness, I somehow have failed to receive those.

But what this has to do with anything or why it belongs in the public does raise my eyebrows :)

But its these open initiatives led by closed teams which seem very intimidating to new people. Open independent forums like ArmAholic, ArmedAssulat.info and OFPEC are far more welcoming and forgiving than websites with intimidating project tools and reporting structures. While Dev-heaven will serve some of the more established teams and individuals as common jumping off platform and hosting for their own projects (ala sourceforge) I doubt many newbies will see the benefits immediately.

We're not (a) closed team(s), and bid you (and everyone else) welcome anytime.

Please don't take personal posts as a reflection of what Dev-Heaven.net is or is about.

It's certainly not the kind of light we are supposed to be perceived in :)

That's not to say I think Dev-heaven is a bad idea. I just dont think its the best way to serve newcomers to the scene.

Well, it's rather the product of the work going on at Dev-Heaven, that newcomers could benefit from.

That can mean directly, but also indirectly by the works (from frameworks to guides, etc) done at dev-heaven,

where anyone who wishes to contribute, is very welcome :)

Besides, the comfort of the tools available to projects hosted, is imo directly beneficial to both developer and end-user.

Personally I just don't think that the BI Forums alone will cut it for what we are trying to achieve, though that doesn't mean we can't all work closely together and get along.

For everything it's purpose

Edited May 25, 2009 by Sickboy

[modemmaik 53]

I think its you that has the limited perspective. Maybe in your "influential" clique but the majority of people that i seem to work with in this community are just talented enthusiasts.

When it comes to construction in 3d, I agree. When it comes to geoLOD, model.cfg and config.cpp plus scripts... everybody is an "enthusiast" and more or less talented....

That was clarification? :confused:

I think it might be clearer if you didn't try to use mathematical notation and explained a little more.

More or less my case: Someone else creates the model... I try to do the rest, when I get the permission ;)

I was always curious about that. I heard it was by trying to impose restrictions and working practices on people that didn't want them or want their work released as 'open source' community property?

Each released addon is more or less open source...

There is no way to protect the models from getting ripped...

Better to show them, how to make it on their own.

BR,

mike

[JdB 151]

the only bad point is that it unables the thiefs, few maniouver space...

I'd consider that a good effect rather than a bad one.

In my experience the size of a team/project is an inconvenience rather than a blessing for the person(s) trying to lead the project. We have like 7 people that work on addons (artwork), and 7 more for various other things (research, coding, missions etc) and the effort needed to coordinate a team that size is already pretty challenging (of course that is partially due to being a mod rather than a more focused addon project like suggested by the OP). You can make a project as large as you want, but ultimately it is best if there is only one person taking care of the modeling, one for the unwrapping, one for the texturing etc, or you just lose track of things. This ensures that the style is consistent.

Our original styles, especially in terms of texturing, did not match, but we try to adopt a common style as much as possible, learning from a few more talented team members.

Edited May 25, 2009 by JdB

[bravo 6 0]

I've to 101% agree to Q!

The Community live since OFP of the hugh variety of different Addon, ideas, solutions and ofcause their quality and that's what these community is based on.

So if you arn't happy with the quality of your addons, take the time for yourself but don't expect that the others will do so.

I agree with Q and Raptor. :)

Now, can we say ArmA2 for life?

I will say yes!

[S!fkaIaC 10]

Sick and kju in old ACE stories? Who cares? ArmA 2 is (almost) out, time to rename ACE and OAC into......hmmmm what?

Seeing it from the "customer" point of view, I am interested in large mod teams to overcome gaps and changes in the HR and for reasons I44_John is mentioning. So the output of DKM, MAPFACT, OCRS, WGL/ACE, BWmod is the quantity and quality I like. Very seldom one-man teams had a similar output.

But if there is more then one guy in the team, politics starting and the outcome is visible in the notifications about changes in the teams. So it is understandable that some experts prefer to work alone.

Best way of working is sitting in the same room and/or having a regular beer face to face together.

Edited May 25, 2009 by S!fkaIaC

[PuFu 4591]

I believe this is one of the best threads on BIS forums, and not by judging the topic title, which is well, not really the right one to express the content of this, but because of the discussions started.

I agree to an extent to ericM, but as others have put it before me, some restrictions will be created by the community and by your own self. While i do believe that small addons will be able to be created by yourself, especially config and script wise, the ones that takes the most amount of time (models), will need to be created in small teams. It will all depend on the scope and how far you would like to go with it.

I am one of those guys who believe goes for quality over quantity any time. That doesn't mean that OFP and ArmA ports, or small stuff that one might find funny or entertaining will not see light in ArmA2, no matter what the quality will be. But let the judging (in terms of usage, number of downloads, etc and not dumb criticizing or whining/bashing/demanding ) be done by the community.

I do believe that the complexity of creating one addon, especially if you are just and enthusiast with low level skills is really hard. A lot of research, learning etc needs to be done by yourself, in your own free time. If i were to know no one in this community now, and know nothing about addon creation it would be really hard to find that start. The reason behind is a lack of information about tools, manuals, and especially the place to find all those.

I know dev-heaven, thanks to a very talented and motivated persons such as sick, kju, spooner, etc is growing each day, and tools, documentations and especially direct questions are finding answers. Same goes for SnakeMan and everyone involved in PMC editing wiki, the veteran OFPEC and its members etc

But good quality and comprehensive guides and tutorials are seldom, and most of the time you will need to find the right answer to your question by the old trial and error method, which can be very discouraging for guy assaulted with a lot of code, vertices and question marks at the same time.

I would love to get better feedback from BIS itself, at least some proper documentation layout for their tools (i am one of those guys who hates o2 sooo soo much for instance, especially since i am used to working with other software, and i felt the downgrade and the lack of precise information).

While this might be just one of those wishes, at least there should be a list of available tutorials sticky (the ones that are out there right now, gathered and hosted maybe on the same page - there are lots of dead links for OFP tutorials - most of which are not even covering most of arma problems), as well as community webpages where help, advice and additional information could be found.

Having proper documentation covering at least the very basics of each side of this addon creating "box" would be another project for this community, as important if not more than any other addon, or model or anything alike. I salute everyone who had created a tutorial, in any kind of form.

PS: @rock: i do believe that BIS forums have grown pretty big and clustered (especially with a lot of old and new trools around) to server as the base of answering and asking questions. There will always be someone to lay his "wise" opinion knowing little to none about the subject.

PPS: sorry for my long post

EDIT:

EricM, i am really interested in the mi28...send me a PM and we can talk about it in a diff way

Edited May 25, 2009 by PuFu

[mr.g-c 6]

In my opinion what we need is better access to information, tutorials and practical examples. BIS are unlikely to do that for us. It would be nice I must admit. Community members need to share what they have learnt and take the time to write accessible tutorials.

I can only second this!!

I saw the modding bible at dev-heaven by Q and Sickboy and i think this is a very promising thing for Modding in Arma2, if good, clear and detailed made of course (many many examples of certains possibilities are needed to be shown -something the Biki terribly lacks!).

I'm only a rather average scripter currently, but i will try to add as much as i can and what i have learnt and over what issues i came, when Arma2 is out, widely available and when i have played with it around of course :D.

I would love on the other hand to learn about modeling and texturing from scratch, the lack of proper, up-to-date and easy to understand tutorials, informations, etc. have kept me away from learning it so far.

[adumb 0]

Hi all

Arma modding is serious business.

I miss the old days when making addons was done just for the hell of it. no quantity standards, no rules just plain old fun.

Kind Regards Adumb

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Don't forget that Brsseb's tutorials for OFP are still up, and may provide a small insight into the addon making, even tho some of it might be outdated for A1 and A2, it's a very good reference to start out.

Just a reminder tho, that this is not a place for airing any teams dirty laundry, team bashing or personal attacks.

[barmyarmy 0]

Personally I DO think that the BIS forums and wiki should be the primary go-to place for all things related to BIS development.

While I can also see a place for dev-heaven as an Arma-forge type location for providing source control, bug-tracking, etc. which Bohemia do not offer in their forums, care need to be taken to compliment and not compete with what bohemia offers in their forums/wiki.

As for the elitism, I've interviewed enough CS graduates to know that possession of a piece of paper, or a university education is NOT a requirement or a garuantee of or coding ability.

Talking to your audience in plain english and not "comp.sci." speak, or taking care to explain the terms to a layman audience on first use. "Anonymous function", and "lambda expression" anyone...

I don't know why it is many scripting modding groups do appear very elitist invite only affairs. I know I had terrible trouble getting in to my first dev. team, despite several offers to assist. This does seem to be a who you know community still...

Posting examples of good practice, and revealing known pit-falls and traps which will catch unwary/new developers is a good idea. For small projects such a coding standard may seem overkill.

In defence of ACE a larger project needs a basic coding standard, for it to succeed. Letting each person do there own thing means you get code which only the author can maintain. In large projects with larges teams, people come and go often without much notice, esp. in volunteer projects where RL can throw curve balls left and right. You need to know that any dev. can pick up any code and get up and running with it quickly, they need to be interchangable. Plus the modules need to integrate and work together, having them work the same agreed way will always help.

If Jimmy is they only guy who can read and understand his own "brilliant code" your fucked.

Give me an average developer who will listen, learn and do what they're told, over an prima-donna genius 9 times out of ten.

I wish dev-heaven and all who use her the best of luck.

Edited May 25, 2009 by barmyarmy

[wipman 1]

Hi, be the man in charge of a team and coordinate actions in a effective way is really hard,

make it by a telematic way makes it even harder, different time zones, different lifes and

lots of small differences which make the common effort harder that have everyone on the

same room or flat working on the same thing or bigger project; i don't envy the manager of

a Mod, i know how hard it is to make everyone work on the same thing at a time. But some

parts of the job of those involved still requiring time and knowledge, as i said before; for do

it bad... i preffer to don't do it. Let's C ya

[mr burns 131]

Hi all

Arma modding is serious business.

I miss the old days when making addons was done just for the hell of it. no quantity standards, no rules just plain old fun.

Kind Regards Adumb

This is true.

I´m awaiting the release of crazyfrog bike for ArmA 2

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If there are any words about restrictions, work practices or open-source-ness, I somehow have failed to receive those.

That was a poorly worded phrase on my part. The intent was to ask the question about the circumstances around Q's departure from ACE's leadership.

We're not (a) closed team(s), and bid you (and everyone else) welcome anytime.

Please don't take personal posts as a reflection of what Dev-Heaven.net is or is about.

It's certainly not the kind of light we are supposed to be perceived in :)

That's nice to hear.

Re the perception thing, I'm not sure exactly how to explain this without sounding like a whackadoo conspiracy theorist :P Your particular group is made up from some of the more successful names in the community. For people that have just trying to start up but aren't new to the community you do look like a very imposing and closed group.

I better be clear here, I am not suggesting there is any conspiracy but its a bit like the ACE vs. other mods thing. There is a feeling in some quarters, myself included, that they are being forced to make all their work ACE compatible because that's what the "famous" people in the community say they should. And if you want your stuff to be used by the community the onus is on you to make your stuff ACE compatible (even if the ACE method may not be the best way to go) because ACE wont consider making ACE compatible with you. (Several addon makers posted about this in various topics and forums some time ago) From some people's point of view Dev Heaven is run by the same people that developed ACE and they are have some concerns about being forced into a certain way of modding to suit 'your own view'. Especially when you see people talking about frameworks and guides. Perhaps it might be better reaching out to the community a bit more and present a more open and supportive face?

Well, it's rather the product of the work going on at Dev-Heaven, that newcomers could benefit from.

That can mean directly, but also indirectly by the works (from frameworks to guides, etc) done at dev-heaven,

where anyone who wishes to contribute, is very welcome :)

I've no doubt that new comers may benefit from some of the guides that may - Sickboy both you and i discussed creating tuts in the past best intentions etc something get in the way - come from DevHeaven but all the info on DH currently is about existing established projects and presented in a very techy IT professional way.

Let me give you an example: Several months ago I was asked to help some guys setup a new EUFOR mod team. I didn't have the time to help, so I pointed them a various info sources and left them to it. After few days Ian (their 28 year old not especially web savvy leader) came back to me with his friends and we discussed his options. The five of them found the Dev Heaven setup a bit "too hardcore" and "intimidating" for them. Using phrases like "Fuck I didn't even understand the intro page", "scared the crap out of me", "what's the deal with the roadmap it doesn't make sense".

None of this is a slight against DH, its just they don't know how to use a tool like it. I know a lot of people that are exactly the same and some aren't new to the community. While I can appreciate the DH setup and features for what they can do for an IT savvy team anyone that isn't so IT inclined may find that sort of setup as "very complicated" and "scary". The issue I see is about accessibility and approachability. Which is why i think a simple tutorial website and forums in the style of OFPEC is better for newcomers to cope with.

Each released addon is more or less open source...

There is no way to protect the models from getting ripped...

I know that better than most in light of recent events. But don't you think people should have the right to choose? How would you like it if you spend months making an addon then someone takes it, changes a few lines of code or repaints it. Only to release it under a different "brand".

There are some people (eg EricM) that are happy to make something and hand out the source for other to enjoy and modify. Others either don't want to or for varying reasons can't. Either way I strongly believe people should have the right to choose.

PS: @rock: i do believe that BIS forums have grown pretty big and clustered (especially with a lot of old and new trools around) to server as the base of answering and asking questions. There will always be someone to lay his "wise" opinion knowing little to none about the subject.

Trolls and their friends come in many forms mate. As can be seen in many threads including this one :P They seem to come in blocs.

Hi all

Arma modding is serious business.

I miss the old days when making addons was done just for the hell of it. no quantity standards, no rules just plain old fun.

Kind Regards Adumb

I agree. The fun is going out of it because its so hard now. Its even harder because of the lack of documentation and tutorials. :)

Personally I DO think that the BIS forums and wiki should be the primary go-to place for all things related to BIS development.

While I can also see a place for dev-heaven as an Arma-forge type location for providing source control, bug-tracking, etc.

I have to agree. Its neutral ground so to speak.

Talking to your audience in plain english and not "comp.sci." speak, or taking care to explain the terms to a layman audience on first use. "Anonymous function", and "lambda expression" anyone...

This is one of my pet hates and a complaint with the BIKI. Some of the pages are written in such a techy way they make no sense to the uninitiated beginner.

Posting examples of good practice, and revealing known pit-falls and traps which will catch unwary/new developers is a good idea. For small projects such a coding standard may seem overkill.

In defence of ACE a larger project needs a basic coding standard, for it to succeed. Letting each person do there own thing means you get code which only the author can maintain. In large projects with larges teams, people come and go often without much notice, esp. in volunteer projects where RL can throw curve balls left and right. You need to know that any dev. can pick up any code and get up and running with it quickly, they need to be interchangable. Plus the modules need to integrate and work together, having them work the same agreed way will always help.

This is where a community standard would help but I don't really see a way to make one that will work. Taking ACE as an example (please don't take this as me bashing ACE its just the best example to use) you have a huge project that all the end users love. You get so many features all rolled up in one easy to install package and it totally changes the way you play the game. Huge kudos to all involved. However its not compatible with other community mods. The script calls clash with other mods. Class names inherit values from altered sources which in turn cause different behaviour in other non ACE addons etc. How would be create a structure to prevent these clashes? Would a frame work help or is it down to education? IE is it because to scripting or PEBKAC errors?

A best practice guide would help. Things like dont alter the bases classes. Dont put the model.cfg entires in your configs etc. Its just agreeing the standard of more advanced methods that will cause problems.

If Jimmy is they only guy who can read and understand his own "brilliant code" your fucked.

Fantastic way to put it. But it illustrates the point perfectly. If you want to learn something the subject need to be accessible to everyone not just a few that speak the 'language'. Anythign that is created to help people needs to be aimed at the appropriate skill level.

Edited May 26, 2009 by RKSL-Rock
numerous typos

[frederf 0]

My opinion is there isn't enough cooperation in clans and modding projects which leads to too many small clans and too many tiny addons that are way too troublesome to get together piecemeal.

What would be better is merge a lot of these 10-man clans together (swallow your pride gentlemen) and start playing some good 45-man games. ACE is a great mod not just because it is good but because it's easy and universal. It's one big happy pack.

[sickboy 13]

That was a poorly worded phrase on my part. The intent was to ask the question about the circumstances around Q's departure from ACE's leadership.

Ah ya, non of my business :)

Re the perception thing, I'm not sure exactly how to explain this without sounding like a whackadoo conspiracy theorist :P Your particular group is made up from some of the more successful names in the community. For people that have just trying to start up but aren't new to the community you do look like a very imposing and closed group.

Im unsure why but I can't seem to picture it :)

I better be clear here, I am not suggesting there is any conspiracy but its a bit like the ACE vs. other mods thing. There is a feeling in some quarters, myself included, that they are being forced to make all their work ACE compatible because that's what the "famous" people in the community say they should. And if you want your stuff to be used by the community the onus is on you to make your stuff ACE compatible (even if the ACE method may not be the best way to go) because ACE wont consider making ACE compatible with you. (Several addon makers posted about this in various topics and forums some time ago)

We (over at ACE) have tried to stick to as many standards that were widely available, and it is not always easy to remain flexible at every corner, esp with this many team-members.

However, I am confused as to the claim that we won't consider changing things, bit saddening to be perceived as the Devil here :)

And I wonder if this is all based on 'feelings' and thoughts, and wonder about which facts and communications. (But might be rather off-topic)

From some people's point of view Dev Heaven is run by the same people that developed ACE and they are have some concerns about being forced into a certain way of modding to suit 'your own view'.

Far from, DH is made up out of very few ACE'ers (don't confuse hosting a project there, with having the whole crew onboard leading DH).

Though I do believe that DH and anyone, can benefit from the years of experience that is collected in Mods and Teams like ACE.

Though surely not imposed.

Besides, officially we aren't even 'Open' yet, basically we started with laying a base for things, and contacting some ppl we think could contribute to our goals.

Only since a few days, have our Entry page and general goals taken really shape.

Especially when you see people talking about frameworks and guides. Perhaps it might be better reaching out to the community a bit more and present a more open and supportive face?

The beauty about the Community is that there are so many faces, so many talents, with so many different views and opinions.

This is also a kind of abomination, simply because it would be extremely hard to get anywhere in regards to what we are trying to achieve.

Even though sharing of knowledge has much improved in the last years, probably also due to the BIKI initiative etc, the same problems still exist;

Too less guides, too hard to start for beginners esp to get to the bi-quality and beyond, etc etc etc.

I am afraid that by the time DH is generating useful output for different levels of involvement in development and the community, initiatives at the BI Forums are not even past discussions, and probably never will or not for a very long time. I think the history shows it pretty much, though I can not name specific examples atm.

I've no doubt that new comers may benefit from some of the guides that may - Sickboy both you and i discussed creating tuts in the past best intentions etc something get in the way - come from DevHeaven but all the info on DH currently is about existing established projects and presented in a very techy IT professional way.

Yea, we're not officially open yet, and the focus of our site is to serve Developers. (I think our current Entry page explains it a lot better; http://dev-heaven.net)

Again, it will be the product of our (future) work that can serve new-comers. The product can end up on the BIKI, BIF or where-ever it serves its purpose well.

Besides all that there is the interaction between Developers and End-Users, on a project basis, through the communications in the different projects hosted.

Let me give you an example: Several months ago I was asked to help some guys setup a new EUFOR mod team. I didn't have the time to help, so I pointed them a various info sources and left them to it. After few days Ian (their 28 year old not especially web savvy leader) came back to me with his friends and we discussed his options. The five of them found the Dev Heaven setup a bit "too hardcore" and "intimidating" for them. Using phrases like "Fuck I didn't even understand the intro page", "scared the crap out of me", "what's the deal with the roadmap it doesn't make sense".

Our site and knowledge-base (wiki etc) has grown a lot since that time.

Though again, it's a place for ppl who want to go down the road of sharing knowledge or a more professional project hosting.

None of this is a slight against DH, its just they don't know how to use a tool like it. I know a lot of people that are exactly the same and some aren't new to the community. While I can appreciate the DH setup and features for what they can do for an IT savvy team anyone that isn't so IT inclined may find that sort of setup as "very complicated" and "scary". The issue I see is about accessibility and approachability. Which is why i think a simple tutorial website and forums in the style of OFPEC is better for newcomers to cope with.

Totally agree. But again, that doesn't mean that they will not benefit directly or indirectly from the knowledge and work done over at dev-heaven (or any other place trying to achieve similair things)

I know that better than most in light of recent events. But don't you think people should have the right to choose? How would you like it if you spend months making an addon then someone takes it, changes a few lines of code or repaints it. Only to release it under a different "brand".

It's all about choice. Nobody forces DH onto anyone, and I do not understand the relevance of taking someone's work in relation to DH or ACE?

(The topic title/1st post is misguiding in relation to my posts)

Either way I strongly believe people should have the right to choose.

I was pretty clear to that regard in my first post in this thread; Choice is great.

I agree. The fun is going out of it because its so hard now. Its even harder because of the lack of documentation and tutorials. :)

Documentation and tutorials is one of the primegoals of DH.

This is one of my pet hates and a complaint with the BIKI. Some of the pages are written in such a techy way they make no sense to the uninitiated beginner.

The biki really is an information resource / database, you can easily look specific things up etc.

But I agree that it is not a place for beginners to start, im also not entirely sure if it was intended that way.

Taking ACE as an example (please don't take this as me bashing ACE its just the best example to use) you have a huge project that all the end users love. You get so many features all rolled up in one easy to install package and it totally changes the way you play the game. Huge kudos to all involved.

Thanks :)

However its not compatible with other community mods. The script calls clash with other mods.

I can't really see how this can be true, and if it is, why I have no knowledge about it.

Class names inherit values from altered sources which in turn cause different behaviour in other non ACE addons etc

Well yea. Thats the simple difference between an Addon/Mod and a Full Conversion Mod.

It is inherent to it, as it is with any full conversion mod in the history of ArmA/OFP, or with mods that alter the game instead of add to the game.

Though you might have a point in regards to the full conversion mod concept, and might be a point of discussion for ACE2.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Sickboy

[ProfTournesol 956]

@ EricM

Besides that you concern is not fully wrong. Yet you seem to have a limited

perspective on this.

Most good devs in the community are professionals or have learned in uni how

to master analysis, design, programming, team work, organization etc.

Arrghhh :icon_ohmygod: i prefer not to comment on this one :raisebrow:

@ ProfTournesol:

You consider BIF the place for devs? For real?

Nope, i never considered it as this, but something similar to OFPEC would be very nice. And very easy to use.

[S!fkaIaC 10]

ACE is a great mod not just because it is good but because it's easy and universal. It's one big happy pack.

Problem is that even ACE is not big enough. Well, ACE adapted their targets to the available resources and a "more" or "faster" is always welcome.

The problem in such large teams is always to make "strong personalities" working together. Pretty often laughable differences causing the leave of one or the other member. Something which would be unusual if you would meet and talk face to face.

Next is that ACE has to protect somehow their assets. If every new community modder would get immediate access to the full content of the repository without a kind of "approval", a lot of ACE work would pop up elsewhere under different name.

To find the balance between a team interests and an easy entrance for new modders ... I do not know how to achive, but it is necessary.

The way beginners are treated sometimes is not made to grow the amount of modders.

[metalchris 0]

Well , it may have taken longer to create new addons compared to OFP , but the level of quality some community work has reached can easily compete with even A2 (i guess with some shader upgrades).

What i'm trying to say is : The step from an ArmA I addon to an ArmA II addon conversion is much easier (assuming you want the addons to be at the peak of the tech-ability of the current engine) , compared to OFP-> ArmA I.

You had to combine all the 40 something uvs into 1 or 2 , create new shader-textures such as normalmaps and speculars back when A1 came out. I guess most of the community have adapted by now. The polycount does not seem to be much higher either , so it should really be easier.

And btw , there are tons of video tutorials for max , maya , sketchup , gimp and PS.

Just ask the allmighty oracle (google).

Regards Chris

[PhilippRauch 0]

Well, using brssebs OFP tutorials helped me too, BUT only after long hours of fiddling, so it works inside ArmA... thats bad for someone interested in doing addons to play/use in the game someone likes.

Not everyone interested in adding 'new stuff' is also interested in actually becoming a software engineer before being able to do so. This is where the whole community lacks, since OFP days... everything as to be picked here and there and tried and so on... loads of time gets 'wasted' just by searching the right QUESTION, before that could lead to the wanted answer!

Even if the biki is like other wikis, some kind of community work, it lacks some kind of 'garbage collection' or 'error checking' for the most obvious flaws, the standard wiki usage of 'many help all' wont work here since they are just too few 'in the know' to create the necessary critical mass to keep the biki healthy.

So all i know know i worked out by myself, since almost all of what i needed hasnt be done or at least hasnt be published so far.

At one point i asked for help (since i was too frustrated for too long that the config wouldnt do what i want) and many tried to help me, but in the end it worked out by doing it myself. This is not meant to belittle the others, who tried to help me but to point out that right now you have to put tremendous efforts by yourself to come 'up to speed' with anything interesting inside modding. Not necessarily something you like to do for a hobby.

I can totally agree with all, that there is too little UP-TO-DATE informations regarding, especially, config work and general addonmaking ie using BIS Tools.

Doing scriptwork IMHO is more a matter of taste or interest, the 'vocabulary' for sqf is there, enough examples are everywhere... anyone so inclined can learn scripting if that person wishes to!

Learning by doing is inside (basic) sqf scripting the way to go, its not that hard and wont take THAT long.

I am neither a programmer nor did i study ANYTHING in any university AT ALL ... EVER ... so i could be a prime example of ArmA 'vigilantism' .. lol

All i knew till this day i worked out by myself, scrounging the web for all possible info sources, as obscure they might be (Like the Biki ;) ). But i also have to confess it would have saved me loads of time and frustration to have, at least for the beginning, something to 'spoon-feed' me, just to be able to digest the infos that are acutally there.

There is ATM no real 'comprehensive' collection of RealVirtuality Engine informations!

But we need to start somewhere and unfortunately its not any Forums since they are 'Discussion Forums' ie 'Bulletin Boards' which never, ever helped in producing structured information, they are 1a for discussing things and whatnot but little else.

And modders aint necessarily good journalists or writers so they have little inclination to write tutorials. I suggest rather ppl with more drive to write and collect information but little interest in modding itself to start and collect and collate the information that is floating around and produce nice tutorials. Maybe then/also modders might put out some more, albeit unstructured, raw, informations that then get 'processed' by others into nice and edible formats?!

BTW: I didnt like the dev-heaven look/feel and whatnot ... but now i do work on it with them to make it more 'palatable' for new ppl.

Actually its not meant to be the first stop for ppl never into any modding!(at least for now, since we need to start somewhere) I had/have my problems too with the system itself.

Anyway they are all nice guys which will help to get interested parties up to speed.. and if they could help/teach me, then im sure anyone else will be able too (read: 'i myself am a dumbass' :P)

[S!fkaIaC 10]

http://ofp.gamepark.cz/_hosted/bwmod/img/news/7/leopard2a6.jpg

@metalchris: hearing you which day after release we have that amazing MBT in ArmA 2 :cool:

[metalchris 0]

OFFTOPIC: actually , this leo is pretty crappy(not at all accurate) and we are kind of embaressed for releasing it. There will be an all new and improved Leopard for A2. And there will be some amazing stuff coming sooner than you expect.We recently found a very talented modeller and our skinner rekindled his enthusiasm ;)

ONTOPIC:

The problem with the lack of skinners is always pressing , so our only skinner snorri made some pretty awesome tutorials for dirt, camo , decay , rust etc, which you can read once the new HP is up and running.(which should be soon).

I have done some modelling and uv unwrap video tuts as well (allthough in german...), but they are very large and i don't know if they'll ever make it public

Edited May 26, 2009 by metalchris

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Keep ontopic please.

[S!fkaIaC 10]

On Topic:

Discussing the needed quality on the Leo example:

- IMHO such a "crappy" Leo is from the "jacket" sufficient for me, as long as all functions working correctly. Of course an absolute authentic painting is welcome.

- releasing betas is nice since it employs the community as testers which might offload the modteam while ironing out the last hidden bug.

- big modteams are welcome since you can build your mission with a beta addonpack assuming that the unit name stays the same while the addon improves over the time. Much less need to update the mission files with each "newer" or "better" addon of the same type.

- also a plus is that the configs are usually balanced at least inside the addon pack

[Sennacherib 0]

but ultimately it is best if there is only one person taking care of the modeling, one for the unwrapping, one for the texturing etc, or you just lose track of things. This ensures that the style is consistent

in fact, the texturer should do the uvmapping, because when the model is splitted in parts only the guy, who did the uvmapping, can easily create the texturing. because he knows exactly where and how the model was cut.

the best way in my opinion for the texturing is that each team should have a standard. this means, that the members share their knowledge and tutorials, and their tips.

but most of the time, people seek recognition of others for themselves.

I asked often some help for the texturing (tutorials, tips), only 2 guys have shared with me their knowledge. I learnt the rest by myself.

And now, i'm able to create a model, the uvmapping and the textures (roughly )And I'm ready to help someone, even if people were not generous with me, because this is not really funny to be alone, when you try to learn something (you have tons of questions but no replies).

sorry for my english. correct me if my post has errors

Edited May 26, 2009 by Sennacherib