Fluid Stance(Better cover system)

[welcome to hell 23]

I am sure lots of people allredy seen this video:

http://video.google.com/videopl....+stance

ArmA 2 needs a better cover system, something better than just left and right. Leaning up and down to truly expose the least of your body as you can to shoot or scout for enemies.

I can't recall how many times i died due to unresponsive/incomplete leaning:

- Some objects are too high and you cant shoot/see behind them.

- Some objects are too low and you have too much of your body exposed.

- If your weapon is too close to the wall you can wedge yourself around the corner

More benefits:

- Player can ajust to whatever cover is near him

- More reallistic firefights.

- Firefights last longer

- More skill required to defeat the enemy

It could use a fairly simple control scheme. For example it could be toggled with one key (Caps Lock) When key is pressed player would go into fluid stance mode and would not be able to move.

W - lean up

S - lean down

A - lean left

D - lean right

(floating zone set to max once key is pressed so player can still aim)

Also the buttons could be sensetive kind of like in WGL, if you tap buttons lightly player leans just a bit at a time for exact ajustment, if button pressed in all the way player leans all the way like in current ArmA.

Once floating zone key is released player goes back to stance he was closest to (Crouch or stand)

I would say that leaning sideways around corners would be more reallistic if it would be like in COD 4 or COD 5, where player just leans the body and, does not lean sideways:

It just feels more natural when the view isnt rotated.

ArmA 2 is said to be the most reallistic infantry sim! So why not add a proffessional cover system to truly make it reallistic?

I really hope ArmA 2 devs will consider something like that in futute!

Why adapt world to the player, when we can adapt player to the world?

Edited April 12, 2009 by Welcome To Hell

[Gustav62 0]

I agree with the benefits of implementing a fluid stance. There are so many times when you kneel, and your boresight is lower than the hood of the car which you're using for cover. If you stand up, you expose yourself too much.

Plus, there is no way in Armed Assault to rest your weapon on a surface (even standing up doesn't have to hurt the accuracy of the shot if your weapon is braced against a stationary object, like a house corner or a vehicle).

It would be nice to have these things if the controls for them were made intuitive. Maybe it's too much work to program something like that. And since the game is of a larger, "tactical" nature, maybe the developers don't want that much micro-control of each player on the map.

[InteractiveBohemian 0]

Agreed, good suggestion. And I like your idea for the controls.

It would be perfect for urban firefights. Unfortunately, I don't think it will be implemented into ARMA 2 (I would like BIS to prove me wrong though  )

Quote[/b] ]Plus, there is no way in Armed Assault to rest your weapon on a surface

+1, this should be improved too

[Alex72 1]

Rainbow6 Raven Shield was awesome with its fluid posture button. Look how much or little you want over an object. Since it was fluid (hold a button and move mouse up or down) you could for example in PvP just barely look over a barrel and the others wouldnt notice you. Awesome stuff that worked amazingly well.

Alex

[SaBrE_UK 0]

Definitely sounds like a good idea. How did you aim whilst poking your body round a corner, though, if the mouse was controlling the stance?

[Dwarden 1125]

definitely supporting anything what comes close or better than shown in video ...

[sk3pt 0]

This is perfect for ArmA2 (nice video), but I don't like your controls. A "press and hold" key + moving mouse up/down/left/right would be much better IMHO. To aim, just release the key.

[Cultivator 0]

Oh yes... very good suggestion.....

I also dont like it when you are behinds sandbags ore something like that an you get hit because you cant put you head down.....

But i think its now to late to implement such things like these in this status of development....

why these suggestion comes so late....  

Regards -rF- Cultivator

[Second 0]

In MOH: airborne, there is this way to control cover stances and leans. You aim and press movement key and character alerts his stance by that (leaning, high kneel, low kneel etc ). Pressing shift key enables character to move while aiming. It's bit too complicated and hard to learn (i've played it thru 3 times and yet i'm not very good at controlling character) and should be simplified bit more. donnu how Ravenshield works in the end, seems too slow, might work well in controlled situation (like bolt locked rifle) but don't work in situations which requires fast reflexes. I could be wrong, i dont' have experience on that.

Vietcong yet has presented best way to do it from games i've played, it good, immersive and simple. Don't aim and you go bit lower in kneel and prone (with prone as low as one can get, cheek pressed to soil). When you aim you lift rifle to shoulder and take aiming stance, which is bit higher. That is simple and very-very effective way to play cautiously and use cover in best possible way, it suits very well in wilderness where there are lots of horizontal cover like rocks and fallen trees, ditches, root growth on soil etc. Why games haven't started to use it more? I don't understand. Does it encourage players to play game too cautiously to suit developers idea or what?

[Gustav62 0]

Why games haven't started to use it more? I don't understand. Does it encourage players to play game too cautiously to suit developers idea or what?

Maybe the fluid stance controls, like you said, become confusing. A player spends more time in-game fiddling with the right posture than paying attention to what is going on around him.

But games like Armed Assault, I think, were made to simulate bigger events. Everything is bigger -- the number of people on each side, the distances, the duration of combat is all longer than in Medal Of Honor or Raven Shield. Those other games (the serious ones, not the eye-candy exhibitions) are mostly made to show a small-scale, like room-to-room combat. In those, a fluid stance is much more useful than in Armed Assault. Although I would like to see it implemented in Armed Assault II.

[dentist guba 0]

it wouldn't be confusing if done like OFP:E. in that you could lean side to side analoguously by just holding the left trigger (the button for zoom/hold breath, equivalent would be holding rmb) and using the movement control to lean.

only problem with that is the lack of analogue control on pc, i guess you could use W and S(or maybe MMB) to adjust height while holding RMB and then have it stay at that level when you are in the same stance as when you changed it.

maybe the game could store it so that when you crouch you would return to the last height you set.

(a value between two limits could be remembered for each position's heigh)

this would mean you could stand up, move to a wall of the same height and you would still be at the right height.

[LJF 0]

Agreed. Like MOH airbourn would be great, no more "just a little higher ... oh ****!" - "BANG!" - "Thud ..."

[bravo 6 0]

it would be very useful

I wounder how AI would cheat this time :P

[Gustav62 0]

it would be very useful

I wounder how AI would cheat this time :P

How does the AI cheat in Armed Assault now?

[bravo 6 0]

They see trough smoke, they see trough grass, they still fire trough walls while in prone position (half body still appears in a wall gives it the opportunity to kill us), they have armor that still act like perfect snipers. But none of this is on topic..

This possibility would give us (humans) better game play. I just say if AIs use this thing well humans are in trouble

[Dwarden 1125]

They see trough smoke, they see trough grass, they still fire trough walls while in prone position (half body still appears in a wall gives it the opportunity to kill us), they have armor that still act like perfect snipers. But none of this is on topic..

This possibility would give us (humans) better game play. I just say if AIs use this thing well humans are in trouble

smoke is only problem of missing view blocking volume and fixable by modders ...

yet i agree with native out of box solution would be very helpful

grass is harder tho some blocking view volume (texture like layer) may help

(something may be in arma already but not sure about exact state of that)

about the prone behind obstacle...

you mean something like target obscuring leading to 'less precise shots ?

armor ? i don't get it ...

perfect snipers is matter of set AI skill and weapon dispersion, recoil etc ... tweakable

another issue may be AI hearing and ways to pinpoint your location (not fooled by echos etc.)

again there is problem if AI act's too confused people start 'whine' that AI too dumb failing to realize humans do stupid mistakes all the time

[Electricleash 133]

I would say instead of having X and C send you directly into Crouch and stand respectively, pressing and holding the buttons should gradually lower and raise your stance.

So when you release the character is held at that elevation. Double tapping the keys could maybe send you into each of their full stances.

Leave Z as a hit the dirt key as that's an essential i my opinion. Tweeking the speed of decent/accent would be needed.

It could also be applied to the lean system I guess.

[bravo 6 0]

They see trough smoke, they see trough grass, they still fire trough walls while in prone position (half body still appears in a wall gives it the opportunity to kill us), they have armor that still act like perfect snipers. But none of this is on topic..

This possibility would give us (humans) better game play. I just say if AIs use this thing well humans are in trouble

about the prone behind obstacle...

you mean something like target obscuring leading to 'less precise shots ?

armor ? i don't get it ...

well if you play the mission "co06_red_hotel.sara.pbo" you will know what i mean.

Inside the hotel the AI in prone position appear slightly trough floor and walls and they can shoot you from upper level aswell.

About the snipper armor, they can spot you in far distance and with mg they kill you with first bullet.

[InteractiveBohemian 0]

This is perfect for ArmA2 (nice video), but I don't like your controls.

A "press and hold" key + moving mouse up/down/left/right would be much better IMHO. To aim, just release the key.

Welcome to Hell's controls seems better, at least to me  .

With his controls, you can adjust your body position and aim/shoot at the same time.

Keyboard for the body and mouse for aiming, it seems more "natural" and efficient...

With your controls, either you adjust your stance, either you aim and shoot.

Therefore you need a good coordination (and it is something hard to have when you get shot at )

and sometimes the mouse inputs needed to adjust your stance could be opposite to the mouse inputs required to aim at your target (could be confusing! !

I also think it would add too much mouse moves into the game.

I doubt the fluid stance will make it into Arma II, maybe a mod could add it later, or an expansion for AA2 by BIS.

[Gustav62 0]

They see trough smoke, they see trough grass, they still fire trough walls while in prone position (half body still appears in a wall gives it the opportunity to kill us), they have armor that still act like perfect snipers. But none of this is on topic..

This possibility would give us (humans) better game play. I just say if AIs use this thing well humans are in trouble

Ah, OK. I've experienced some of those myself. I'd call it something else, though, not cheating (development shortcuts, maybe). The problem is that smoke is simply aesthetic. Grass is for "feel," also. But I thought the developers fixed the grass issue in a subsequent patch.

Anyway, smoke should definitely serve a practical purpose against the AI.

[welcome to hell 23]

I really hope BI will consider implementing something like this in a pach, this feature would change the gameplay forever and rocket it up even further on infantry sim scale!

[Baff1 0]

Vietcong yet has presented best way to do it from games i've played, it good, immersive and simple. Don't aim and you go bit lower in kneel and prone (with prone as low as one can get, cheek pressed to soil). When you aim you lift rifle to shoulder and take aiming stance, which is bit higher. That is simple and very-very effective way to play cautiously and use cover in best possible way, it suits very well in wilderness where there are lots of horizontal cover like rocks and fallen trees, ditches, root growth on soil etc. Why games haven't started to use it more? I don't understand. Does it encourage players to play game too cautiously to suit developers idea or what?

Vietcong 2 is still ahead of the pack with it's movement, cover and hit detection on weapons.

All dev's should be forced to play this game.

[BLSmith2112 0]

I never saw this, thats actually really cool! Raven Shield is a much older game too.

I wonder why no ones taken use to it. Current controls these days feel too bulky.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Quote[/b] ]smoke is only problem of missing view blocking volume and fixable by modders ...

It took way too long until viewblocks started to appear in a "popular" fashion, meaning that public server missions could start using it. We need it from vanilla ArmA2. ACE mod has the best implementation I've seen so far.

Back on track though... Fully flexible dynamic stance and lean sounds complex to operate. Tapping caps lock sounds like a bit handful considering how many likes (I guess) to control teamspeak/VoIP features with the left hand as well. Maybe thumb on space could serve as toggle, but this would interfere with those using the command feature. And shift-space to rest weapon, like in ACE.

I think I would prefer the Vietcong way, but I might have to try the implementation first.

[Focha 0]

Hi there guys,

I didn't read all the thread so I am sorry if this was already told before but for me at least (because I am a track ir 4 user) I already have a fluid lean. That does not happen for the keys and only happen with the track ir. For ArmA II I see it support more track ir axis so maybe we will get a surprise.

Regards.