Fix ArmA choppers now!

[Bad Pilot 0]

I was reading above about autocentering and thinking "what autocentering?" but I see how that would happen with a mouse.  Surely if you're going to play at pilots, the first thing you do is buy a joystick?  Or is complaining more appropriate?

Yes, complaining is more appropriate.

Actually the answer is... Why have autocentering? I understand the cause, but insufficient programming is not reason to keep it around.

A joystick is inconvenient in any regular computer setup. Having to switch inputs around to go flying/infantry/driving is just not convenient. The fact is the game should be playable with mouse and keyboard, why shouldn't it? Forcing a joystick down people's throats is silly.

So, remove autocentering, it results in nothing but annoyance.

Forcing a joystick down peoples' throats.. there's an image and a half!

I have my keyboard on the left, angled just so and my left hand does the keys (no, not default keys). My joystick is next to it, next to the numpad and the joystick is lined up wioth the centre of my screen. My mouse is on the right of my joystick. There's no sense of inconvenience as I move my right hand from mouse to joystick for flying. I can teach you to set your controls up sensibly and ergonimically but hey, I've got flying to do.

Amazed this thread is still going. All you complainers: please gather in a field and await my strafing/maypoling attack

[Bad Pilot 0]

The other thing wrong is that you can flatten out the collective (0 throttle), pull up, and you gain altitude making it impossible to do rapid stops without climbing a hundred feet or more. Strangely though you can do sideways stops with out the altitude gain. 0 throttle/collective should not cause the helo to gain altitude regardless of pitch.

Hey neon nice to see someone in XDC give a damn about arma

I think if you go to zero throttle at speed and flare (nose up), the rotors would be ripped off by the extra resistance if they rotated to the zero-throttle position. Zero-throttle doesn't mean the same in a real helicopter but for the game...

When I flare for a landing, I keep the throttle high (usually actually increase it) and flare left or right like a handrake turn. The higher the throttle, the greater the braking effect. Uh.., that sounds dumb but it's what you actually want in the game. It's like Asteroids in that respect .

[-Total- 0]

I usually start slowing speed about 30km before I get to the target zone. Just a slight flare so I maintain motion, low altitude, and a realtive speed.

If it were up to me, I'd prefer the flight model be as reaslistic as possible so a pilot would be a definitive niche skillset, but it is, afterall, a game and not a full simulator.

If it were a full simulator, we wouldn't be able to press a key and be able to zoom in on our enviroment lol.

[Neon Samurai 0]

The other thing wrong is that you can flatten out the collective (0 throttle), pull up, and you gain altitude making it impossible to do rapid stops without climbing a hundred feet or more. Strangely though you can do sideways stops with out the altitude gain. 0 throttle/collective should not cause the helo to gain altitude regardless of pitch.

Hey neon nice to see someone in XDC give a damn about arma

I think if you go to zero throttle at speed and flare (nose up), the rotors would be ripped off by the extra resistance if they rotated to the zero-throttle position. Zero-throttle doesn't mean the same in a real helicopter but for the game...

When I flare for a landing, I keep the throttle high (usually actually increase it) and flare left or right like a handrake turn. The higher the throttle, the greater the braking effect. Uh.., that sounds dumb but it's what you actually want in the game. It's like Asteroids in that respect .

Hmm think you have me mistaken for someone else.. XDC?

As for throttle, thats more an ArmA reference then a helicopter reference (generally you don't touch the throttle on a helicopter in flight unless you need emergency power or similar). I only included it in case people did not know what i meant by collective.

The maneuver I'm describing is the standard one used by helo pilots when they need to stop in a hurry, first used by Huey pilots in Vietnam when dropping troops off at an LZ. Its not so much a flare as it is almost standing the helicopter on its tail (ie going 50+ degrees climb). Now to do this in most sims you would flatten out the collective to about 20% or so and pull up hard and hold for a few seconds, then pitch back down and bring the collective back up. Experienced pilots can do this maneuver from high speed, and come to a hover with out loosing or gaining any altitude in a few seconds.

The problem in ArmA is you can't do this maneuver with more then 20-30 degrees climb with out gaining altitiude, even with the collective/throttle at 0. If you try you will gain a couple hundred meters in altitude (which is very bad when trying to terrain mask). ArmA helicopters should not gain altitude no matter the angle of climb if the collective/throttle is at 0 (this is what i want changed).

Skid stops you describe are right now the only way to stop in a hurry, but its a much more dangerous maneuver at low altitude, then the one I described above (do you really want to pull a skid at speed when flying in the tree line?). They are a maneuver you can do in reality also.

As for planning stops 10-30km from the target, right now thats the only way to do it if you want to stop when flying 5m or less off the deck at speed. But completely wrong, you should not have to plan that far ahead, or at all beyond basic waypoints. I sure as heck never once planned any "i need to start slowing down here" points when playing any high fidelity helo sims, especially when acting as a transport pilot. The maneuver I'm describing is one of the most basic combat helo 101 maneuvers there is.

Between this and the mars like atmosphere (Where things take far to long to loose speed in the air), ArmA helo's are very slippery to fly, far too slippery. In fact other then the collective (ArmA very much simplified this) the helicopters in Janes Longbow 2 are easier to fly then in ArmA.

[Jex =TE= 0]

but how exactly is in your opinion arma's FM better than the BF2 FM (for choppers)?

BF2's fm is the epitome of arcady.

It doesn't hold altitude. it stops on a dime. it defies gravity. The collective power is way too high. Bf fm lets you do absurd things.

BF2 FM??? What FM??? LMAO!!

[LeftSkidLow 1]

I was pretty sure I gave up on this thread a while ago but have to make a statement. If you are going 120+ knots in an MD500, and you bottem out the collective, it is still very capable of climbing with aft cyclic. So yes, it would actually climb in flat pitch for a bit if you used enough cyclic. And thats just a 500, which is a pretty low inertia rotor system, if you tried that in something like Bell 205, you would climb even more. You do have to plan ahead for your approach in helicopters, especially the ones with higher inertia rotor systems like a UH-60. I think there is a misconception here that if you go flat pitch in a helicopter there is no lift and you fall like a rock, not true for all helicopters. Yes in little low inertia piston trainers like the R-22 and S-269 that will happen.

[mattxr 9]

Im suprised this thread is still open lol.

[Neon Samurai 0]

Most combat helicopters as far as I'm aware of will not typically gain much altitude at 0 collective when doing the maneuver I previously described other the they may bob up a few feet when transitioning. Civilian helicopters however are more likely to be effected as you say for the simple reason that they are not as heavily loaded down as your average combat helicopter (even the scout helicopters are weighed down by armor, weapons and electronics). Also several helicopters are capable of negative rotor pitch. ArmA helicopters however gain massive amounts of altitude at 0 collective and medium to high upward pitch.

As for planning approaches, of course you do, I guess I glossed over that too much to make a point. but you don't need to plan to start slowing down 30km from a LZ or target to make sure you can stop there. Realistically you would need no more then a km to come to a safe stop with out bobbing up, if needed you can stop a lot quicker then that. In ArmA you need to plan several (at least 2-3) km before you reach your objective if you want to slow down in time with out doing a skid maneuver or gaining far to much altitude.

[Beagle 684]

Also several helicopters are capable of negative rotor pitch. ArmA helicopters however gain massive amounts of altitude at 0 collective and medium to high upward pitch.

But not enough at speed. It crashes into cliffs just because the damned thing does'nt climb even at full collective and 10° nose up at 250km/h

[Goatus 0]

CHOMP!!!! U GOTTA DO AZ HIS SAYS!!!

BISKET TIN IN PARISIO CAFE FOR TEH REALIZM!!

Rudders are not the only control surface on helicopters, keep trying.

Quote[/b] ]§12) Do not type in all capital letters

Typing in all caps equals according to standard net etiquette to yelling. It is also difficult reading such posts.

48h PR to give you the chance to read the forum rules forth and back until you understood them.

Megahurt

Even though you're not satisfied with the helicopters this doesn't give you the right to swear here.

I had a question I was going to ask here, but if this is any indication of how helpful the 'staff' are here I'll not waste my time. I'd hate to be banned for typing out vulgarities like 'darn'..

Anyone familiar with a more mature, friendly ArmA forum they could point me toward?

[whisper 0]

CHOMP!!!! U GOTTA DO AZ HIS SAYS!!!

BISKET TIN IN PARISIO CAFE FOR TEH REALIZM!!

Rudders are not the only control surface on helicopters, keep trying.

Quote[/b] ]§12) Do not type in all capital letters

Typing in all caps equals according to standard net etiquette to yelling. It is also difficult reading such posts.

48h PR to give you the chance to read the forum rules forth and back until you understood them.

Megahurt

Even though you're not satisfied with the helicopters this doesn't give you the right to swear here.

I had a question I was going to ask here, but if this is any indication of how helpful the 'staff' are here I'll not waste my time. I'd hate to be banned for typing out vulgarities like 'darn'..

Anyone familiar with a more mature, friendly ArmA forum they could point me toward?

Yes, because the mature and friendly guy in the above example is clearly the guy getting his 48h PR, while the mod is so childish and offensive!

I mean, it's there, written just before us!

[Goatus 0]

Yes, because the mature and friendly guy in the above example is clearly the guy getting his 48h PR, while the mod is so childish and offensive!

I mean, it's there, written just before us!

I think you missed the subtle humor in the response the guy gave having to do with the intentional misspelling and all caps, read the whole thing. I don't mean any offense but the moderators reaction seems unreasonable and entirely unnecessary.

Hope I don't get banned for saying that, but it hardly seems like a great way to deal with fans interested and dedicated to the game enough to actively participate on the forums.

On a happier note, I did find a couple great fan based forums that suit me better but thanks for your help anyway whisper.

[whisper 0]

You can dislike mods reaction, but labeling it immature is... well, not suited with the example given.

As for getting help, you'll find plenty here as much as anywhere else

[Neon Samurai 0]

But not enough at speed. It crashes into cliffs just because the damned thing does'nt climb even at full collective and 10° nose up at 250km/h

Hmm never had any problems with cliffs myself, but I will pull more then 10° nose up. Also I would point out that some military helicopters can have difficulty gaining altitude. The Apache for example can be a real bear to get airborne when fully loaded in a hot environment like the desert. It can hardly get off the ground and will only really be able to gain much altitude when moving forward. In mountainous/higher elevation environments you have to be careful with it and hot weather as it won't be able to maintain altitude in a hover and will start to sink

[Punisher5555 0]

Neon said, "The Apache for example can be a real bear to get airborne when fully loaded in a hot environment like the desert. It can hardly get off the ground and will only really be able to gain much altitude when moving forward. In mountainous/higher elevation environments you have to be careful with it and hot weather as it won't be able to maintain altitude in a hover and will start to sink"

Where did you hear that? It's not what I have been hearing from land of eternal dust. Even the my former bird, 58D, is not doing that with the little power margins it has. The 64D has a two beast engines and a transmission to pump it out. The only thing the 64D's are not loading up in the desert is the FCR as it is a useless piece of gear in that conflict.

I have been laughing at this thread for awhile. The flight model is fine except for the stupid flight speeds. Let's hope the Mod's close this thread soon.

Scout's Out !!!!

[Frank-O 0]

Cobras in Afghanistan are not flying out fully loaded because of the higher altitude, and heat resulting in loss of thrust vs US environments. Loadouts need to account for extra fuel, and are usually less due to the less than ideal conditions.

[Inkslinger 1]

Like I said a few pages ago I had serious issues with the choppers when I started playing arma but now I absolutely love flying them. I use an airflow gamepad w/ dual analog sticks and it works like a dream.

I can fly high speed low altitude attack runs with the Viper like it second nature now. make the first run pull hard back on the stick w/ full right or left rudder once the chopper slows enough for the rudder take effect center the main stick and zip back in the opposite direction for the next attack. I can do most of this at top speeds and very seldom ever pass 60m of altitude. Also works well with landings under fire, after the chopper turns, level off and land.

And if you want to stop fast without shooting to the moon just hold the button down to start losing altitude, as soon as it starts droping pull hard back on the stick while still holding the collective down. when I do this at speed around 200kmh I usually dont gain but about 15-20m in altitude.

[[aps]gnat 28]

Like I said a few pages ago I had serious issues with the choppers when I started playing arma but now I absolutely love flying them.

Yes, and I think a whole bunch of other people haven't bothered to "learn" how to fly in ArmA ...... probably because they were expecting some arcade game dynamics where no skill is required.

Once you learn to fly them you can perform some hair-raising stuff.

BTW, for those who dont realise.

Thin Air due to either/both a) High Air temperatures b) High Altitude;

= Less lift generated by rotating blades

also = less power output generated by the gas turbines that power all of these beasts.

Obvious combined = less performance and lower margins

[max power 21]

Gas turbines lose 10 percent power for every 3000 feet gain in altitude and lose .5 - 1 per cent power for every increase in one degree Fahrenheit. Increased ambient temperature also increases the heat-rate of the machine, making it overheat faster. At a an altitude of 2000 feet, at a tempterature of 35 degrees celsius, you can expect that the turbine will be producing 70% of the power it would produce at sealevel at STP.

The same goes for the rotor system. The rotors work on pressure differences as well, and will lose 'traction' as the pressure drops due to an increase in altitude or temperature, causing a need for the engine to work harder. Since the engine is partially incapacitated by the same conditions, you can see that this is great issue for helicopters.

The ah-64 apache as much more excess power than the ah-1w, and has a greater payload and fuel capacity because of it, but also more power to play with if they aren't loading the thing to maximum take off weight. The ah-1w always sacrifices fuel for payload, and so has less (or no) wiggle room. I'm not sure about the zulu.

[hailstorm 4]

I don't think Punisher5555 was doubting that air pressure (heat+alt, etc.) causes decreased performance in helicopters. it sounded to me like he was just questioning the accuracy of Neon's quote about the AH-64.

Lets not turn this into yet another 'bitch-about-trivial-aircraft-facts' thread. sound good?

Let's try to remain on topic, and be constructive about what should (and shouldn't) be fixed about the helicopter flight model.

[Punisher5555 0]

You are correct Hailstorm.

My only gripe with ArmA has always been the speed of the helicopters. If they fix that it will take care of all the "slow down a million miles away" and NOE flight issues.

Scout's Out!!!

[max power 21]

I wasn't supporting any argument, I just saw an opportunity to learn more about that subject and so I did a bunch of research and shared the findings. I thought the conversation was neat and I certainly wasn't bitching.

[dslyecxi 23]

My only gripe with ArmA has always been the speed of the helicopters. If they fix that it will take care of all the "slow down a million miles away" and NOE flight issues.

What do you see as being wrong with the speed of the helos?

[GAU-8 0]

i am just waiting for the rubber bandy tail rotor authority to go away, and have better authority in general.

but i have lived with it so far, and i find them still enjoyable, and fairly precise, as long as you take the time to get used to it. by the time if/when they fix it. time to get used to it all over again :P

[Punisher5555 0]

I think in this "game world" Dslyecxi, helicopters have no weight or some helicopter aerodynamics. 0 to max speed in 1 second is just wrong. Max speed should be hard to attain. In real life, and I hate to compare, there are maximum speeds you should be at depending what your load/aerodynamic profile/environmental conditions are. When I flew it wasn't about max speed. If I could get good speed I was like "Hell yeah". Instant max speed is for airplane fighter jocks.

Here is one example in the "game world" compared to real life. Using the MH-6 with with a full load of guys on the rails you can virtually instantly pull max power and at be at top speed of the helicopter in 1 or 2 seconds. In real life the MH-6 with a full load of operators on the rails is probably limited to 60 knots max and takes some time to get to that speed. Weight, aerodynamics, and safety of the passengers are factors. If you could do what can in ArmA your passengers would say, "Don't do that again you a$$hole. You nearly killed us. We were hanging on for dear life even though we were strapped in".

Dslyecxi, I never played the early versions of ArmA, but I heard the helicopters were "sluggish". Maybe they had it right and changed it to what it is now for "game" purposes. So the only complaints I have ever had and posted about the game are the speed/weight issues.