Fix ArmA choppers now!

[malick 0]

Don't change the flight model for choppers ! It DOES need some tweaks here and there, but it's working as designed. In my opinion, it does its job of simulating an helicopter in a game where infantry is the main focus.

Jets and all fixed wings aircraft on the other hand need some serious improvement. Thrust and lift are not rendered in a correct manner, making gameplay less satisfying and too far from realism.

For helicopters, I believe an increased damage resistance (armor in config ? or another coefficient) could improve the experience, allowing better landings without dying...

Malick

[Jex =TE= 0]

As far as jets go - please fix the throttle.

[Baff1 0]

I don’t know why people just don’t practice more.  The ArmA flight model, while flawed compared to FS etc, is far more realistic than most FPS games. What is the point of taking a huge backward leap to the OFP flight model.  I prefer to see it brought up to a flight sim standard as much to improve the "simulation" aspect of the game as to drive out the BF2/selfish types that want a helicopter to "pwn pplz".

Agreed. Having the devs dumb down the flight model (even if it's an option) to OFP standards is a waste of their time.

It's not a simple case of 'copying the OFP flight model' into ArmA.

The only real differences are the fact that the OFP model limited roll and pitch and followed the terrain a bit. More realistic? Hell no!

The autocentering may bother those using a mouse to steer, but that's nothing do do with the flight model - it's the way the game handles mouse input for vehicles. Maybe that's the real problem when some people ask for the old flight model back, they just want the mouse input to be handled in the same way. Am I right here?

I do think that rudder control should be improved (stronger at higher speeds) and choppers should be able to handle harder landings so as not to take damage from landing with autorotation. Maybe collective should be more reactive too. The flight model should be made more realistic - these changes would actually make choppers easier to use.

But bringing back a flight model from 2001 just because you lack the skill to handle one that doesn't restrict your movements? No thanks

Come on, it's not that hard

And neither is it that enjoyable.

Harder doesn't equal more fun. It just = harder.

I want a battlefield simulator, not a flight simulator.

Each and every available unit should have an easy and intuative interface allowing you to reliably perform the roles and manouvres that the model represented actual provides on the battlefield.

The more intuative this is, the easier this is to accomplish, the more people will be able to enjoy this element of that game.

Now I would obviously enjoy it more if the controls were a bit more involving than just "point and click", but I would rather have "point and click" than difficult to control.

As a first priority, an interface must be user friendly. Making it harder is positively stupid. The opposite of good design.

And sorry, but I really don't give a rats tail about looping the loop. Save it for BF2.

I just want to get my troops in and out without being seen or shot down by radar guided weaponry.

You want realism? You want simulation?

So do I, and pulling loop the loops over the battlefield isn't it.

Controls that enable me to do that are "a waste of the dev's time".

(At the "splitting the crowd" multiplayer guy, make a decent interface and you might find there is a bit more of a crowd to split). The more accessable you make this game, the more people will use it.

For those who wish to see the helicopter flight models achieve greater parity with actual flight sims, please note that the other flight sims I've tried all offer a variety of flight models, including the simplified "terrain hugging" one found in OFP.

Would it really be a waste of the dev's time to add more options to the flight model?

Given that none of us can agree on which one single option is best, I think that this is clearly the way forward.

For me the helicopter flight model has been the difference between playing the game incessantly and not really bothering.

The engine is far too laggy for me to really enjoy the infantry elements, the tanks are so low tech as too almost have no recreatable role on a modern battlefield, I never ever feel like I am role playing actually armoured tactics in this game.

Really the only thing OFP actually ever excelled at was the helicopter.

What other sim allows you to interact with infantry and armour?

I bought ARMA because I liked flying Helicopters in OFP.

Can I fly them in ArmA? Yes.

Do I want to? No.

Like the original poster this is the only improvement I ever look for in patches. If it isn't addressed in the changelog, I don't waste my time downloading it.

[benreeper 0]

Me thinks you should play the game that you enjoy the most: you'll be happy that you did.

--Ben

[Daniel 0]

Baff1, i'm afraid I completely disagree on pretty much all your points!

The flight model is amazing. The ability to loop the loop over the battlefield is awesome.

The fact I can use a helicopter to do any tactical maneuver I want (ie. Pick up troops, drop off troops, dogfight with another chopper, swing it round a tree line and blat a tank in the chops, pop back down again, autorotational landing) is excellent for what many seem to consider an infantry sim.

And choppers were never my favourite part of OFP or ArmA, it's always been advancing to target with a bunch of mates on foot, maybe with a friendly asset pouring rockets over our heads and onto the smoke markers we've just launched.  

Hehe, sorry for the rant but i'm seriously enjoying ArmA again...    

[hailstorm 4]

[CAS] Daniel, just cause you can fly doesn't mean it's correct; heck, i can fly choppers in game too, don't mean it's an unrealistic in some circumstances - which seems like exactly what Baff1 seems to have said. what's to disagree with in that?

[Daniel 0]

I'm not saying the controls are completely realsitic or correct, far from it. I'm simply saying the current model is in the right direction away from OFP's more simplified model. Baff1's point to me came across as "making the controls more complex has made the helicopters less good at their roles, or less fun to fly". Which i basically disagree with.

To me making the flight model "harder", or more complex as I see it, has made it more fun, because once you get the hang of it, your helicopter will do whatever you want. It might not handle the same way as a real life one would - I havn't got a clue how they should handle, and I play with mouse and keyboard. But what the helicopter physically does in game is precise to what I intend of it.

[Frank-O 0]

The world airspeed record for helicopters is 249.1mph in a Lynx 800 set in 1986. ArmA helicopters often violate that. BIS please fix it.

The ability to yaw at speeds above 40mph (60mph for kA50) should be possible. It diminishes in effect with increasing speeds, but would invite a strong possibility of helicopter flight instability to result in loss of control when done longer than short burst periods of time.

Yaw is rotating the helo left and right with pedal work.

[max power 21]

The world airspeed record for helicopters is 249.1mph in a Lynx 800 set in 1986. ArmA helicopters often violate that. BIS please fix it.

The ability to yaw at speeds above 40mph (60mph for kA50) should be possible. It diminishes in effect with increasing speeds, but would invite a strong possibility of helicopter flight instability to result in loss of control when done longer than short burst periods of time.

Yaw is rotating the helo left and right with pedal work.

ArmA helicopters NEVER violate that. I don't think you could get an ArmA helicopter to go 400 km/h falling out of orbit. Besides, that world record is for straight and level flight, not maximum speed attained in a dive, I think.

All of the distances and speeds in ArmA are displayed in metres and kilometres per hour, not miles and miles per hour.

[Enixj7 0]

I believe more choices would be great. Realistically though tweaks (similar in respect to what RKL has done with the a10) that enhance the exisitng flight model would work out alot better.

[mattxr 9]

Dont worry.. it would be too much work to change the hole flight/model system anyways, all they can do is tweak it, which is what we want anyways..

I dowbt they will have any major changes before the last patch.

[sic-disaster 311]

Hell, i'm only asking for them to leave out these missions in campaigns so i can get bloody on with it!

Never could and never will be able to fly these things, dont even like playing with them or tanks either. I'm an infantry guy.

Not that that's an excuse though, but it's bloody annoying being forced to play something that horribly sucks in my experience, and getting stuck because of something the game does not even focus on.

/ end rant.

[max power 21]

There's always shift + numpad minus, e, n, d, m, i, s, s, i, o, n.

This isn't an argument to justify anything, but if you want to skip the missions you don't like, there you are! Type that in in the middle of a mission.

[Uziyahu--IDF 0]

I remapped my controls from rudder to pedals and that was a big improvement. Now my bird doesn't tip over when I try to spray FFAR's with side-to-side steering.

I also find that using my 360 gamepad provides me with greater control.

I loved the helo flight models in Battlefield 2. They weren't quite as difficult as the Desert Combat mod, as far as I could tell, but they still required about 20 total flight hours before I could fly through the tube on the dam map or evasively snake through the valleys.

Guys would get in my gunner's position and tell me I was scaring the crap out of them by my nap-of-the-earth flying.

[llama_thumper 0]

not that the OFP flight models were good (flying on rails is one of my memories), but i find that the flight models for the choppers in ArmA are worse - they're not on rails, but feel very simplified in comparison to other chopper flight models, say BF2. now, of course, not being a pilot, someone can say that actually the ArmA model compared to the BF2 model is more realistic - don't think so, but it's possible.

generally in ArmA i have the feeling of flying in straight lines... it just doesn't feel right.

just my two euro cents. think ArmA could be much better,if this were 'fixed'.

[Inkslinger 1]

I too hated the choppers in Arma when I started playing, I even made a post about it. However now that Ive had a little time with them I can't stand to fly the ones in OFP. Using a gamepad Ive learned to do some pretty sick maneuvers with the choppers and besides raising the survivability I wouldn't change a thing.

[llama_thumper 0]

ok, to clarify - i'm not suggesting going to an OFP model, and not to a professional sim model - but at least to a level of BF2, because the current model is just not right...

[=jps=sgtrock 4]

Wow.  8 pages arguing about the helo flight and crash models and not one person has linked to Dslyecxi's training video?  If anything shows what can be done in an ArmA helo, that 4 or 5 minutes will show you.

Note: I'm not saying that those pushing for a better crash model aren't right.  I'm simply saying that Dslyecxi shows what's doable.  

He's too modest to mention it himself, so here's where you can find it.  The landing on the rooftop is a picture perfect feather light touchdown.  The video has a handful of other landings in tight urban surroundings, too.

Here's another video done by one of his passengers when he was doing an insertion into a hot LZ while flying a UH60.

The point for me is that while the helo crash model is very unforgiving, it's not fatally so. Do I wish it was a tad easier? Heck, yes! I probably won't ever be as good a pilot as Dslyecxi and others. But at least he shows what can be done.

[whisper 0]

ok, to clarify - i'm not suggesting going to an OFP model, and not to a professional sim model - but at least to a level of BF2, because the current model is just not right...

BF2 model ain't right either, tbh. In terms of realism, at least.

[max power 21]

ok, to clarify - i'm not suggesting going to an OFP model, and not to a professional sim model - but at least to a level of BF2, because the current model is just not right...

It will become right after you play it for a while and figure out what you can and with the flight model rather than being surprised about it, leading to frustration. Once you get used to it, it's all good, I think.

[ravenholme 50]

BF2's flight model is terrible. The ArmA one is better, somewhat more realistic, and once you get the hang of it, it's great. Sure, it could use a few tweaks (I want to be able to perform roll-on landings at speed, and rudder should be slightly more effective), but otherwise, it's fine.

[einsena 0]

i actually prefer ArmA's flight control compared to OFP, but that's maybe because i like to play flight sims too!

the way i see it, it's better this way, because now we're forced to have a dedicated "pilot" and that enforces teamwork. and due to the higher difficulty to fly an aircraft, it limits the amount of lawn dart pilots in ArmA, which is for me, a good thing.

[icebreakr 3156]

I agree, my team uses only 1-3 dedicated pilots for the entire squad (squad usually consists of 2-3 teams). It is just not funny anymore to see a newbie crashing a radio tower, powerlines or tree and killing all guys aboard

But on the other hand this also happens with highly trained pilots example: in one mission on Syr Darain one-manned AH1 managed to successfully observe LZ through the zoom view of any incoming enemy vehicles... but slight movement to the right collided with approaching UH60 loaded with infantry

[ravenholme 50]

the way i see it, it's better this way, because now we're forced to have a dedicated "pilot" and that enforces teamwork. and due to the higher difficulty to fly an aircraft, it limits the amount of lawn dart pilots in ArmA, which is for me, a good thing.

Strange, everyone I play with can fly Helicopters (Though there are occasional accidents, like when a certain friend filling the role of pilot for me, as I'd been caught napping at base and had my legs broken due to being shot, crashed my UH-60 with all hands into trees near Valejo, South Sahrani), I find the flight model personally to require the right mixtures of flight skill and situational awareness. *shrug*

Planes however... Well, we only have one person who can fly those. (I blame my lack of a joystick though)

[whisper 0]

C'mon, ArmA FM is nothing difficult to the point you crash everywhere as soon as you get in a chopper

It's more difficult to make specific maneuvers than OFP, though. Fast landing, precise aiming, things like that. A few problems, but nothing horrible. I quite like ArmA FM, I think I prefer them over OFP (and definitely over BF2 )