AI disaster + tanks

[Garbol 0]

Ok so today i run the editor, place a tank M1A1 (empty). Then i place that russian heavy MG and i soot all mags out at M1A1. Then i jump in to the tank on a drivers seat and what i see? a Tank has orange status on evrything...

2nd AI is still stupider than a stick... RPG shoot at infantry, I placed 2 tanks in the middle of Rhamadi city, T-72 just didnt move and was shooting whit MG at the other Tank, M1A1 has driven out of the city about 100M and than destroyed the T-72...

I have Ai set to expert and "Super AI" truned on - super...

[Törni 0]

They seem to be doing odd stuff that cannot be explained. Turning back on enemy, not using cover, moving in erratic ways and get completely lost among buildings.

The most irritating thing is that AI units sometimes completely ignore enemies within few meters and in a clear field of view. They just follow some enemy that is 200+ meters away for example.

[-Puma- 2]

They seem to be doing odd stuff that cannot be explained. Turning back on enemy, not using cover, moving in erratic ways and get completely lost among buildings.

The most irritating thing is that AI units sometimes completely ignore enemies within few meters and in a clear field of view. They just follow some enemy that is 200+ meters away for example.

well talking about the not engaging enemys up close, I sometimes dont see the enemy standing about 20 meters infront of me, And been killed several times by it(was in m1a1), so I quess it just add's some human error in AI's behaviour...

[Col.Flanders 0]

The tanks still don't use HEAT on infantry but from what I've experienced, when you get in range of that MG...ruuuuuun. No, don't run...you'll be dead. Just make sure it doesn't see you.

Those tank crews are PISSED at us for abusing their stupidity in all previous patches. Their more advanced 1.08 descendants are taking revenge for what we did to their ancestors.

Still, would like to see 'em engage with HEAT at range. Right now the main gun seems to act solely as a wall basher for AI when infantry is involved.

[daikan 1]

if ArmA's AI could move around and react in an 'intelligent' way we would have had robots in our households, on the battlefield and everywhere else for quite some time

my point is this: programming a convincing AI is the most difficult - if not impossible - part in every game and I doubt that we will see any significant improvement anytime soon.

[odjob 0]

Some time the AI is just plain stupid but other times they are brilliant. Sometimes when playing a editor (selfmade) mission they surprise me with almost humanlike behavior. In real life soldiers are not superhumans they are ordinary people with military training making mistakes like any human would, some are stupid, some are intelligent.

[Lor 0]

Do you think it would be better to create a central thread to take all of these random issues/bug reports?

Seriously, there are like 15 of them on the front page. It's getting ridiculous. Every person who notices a problem with the AI posts a topic.

[Shadow NX 1]

Ok so today i run the editor, place a tank M1A1 (empty). Then i place that russian heavy MG and i soot all mags out at M1A1. Then i jump in to the tank on a drivers seat and what i see? a Tank has orange status on evrything...

2nd AI is still stupider than a stick... RPG shoot at infantry, I placed 2 tanks in the middle of Rhamadi city, T-72 just didnt move and was shooting whit MG at the other Tank, M1A1 has driven out of the city about 100M and than destroyed the T-72...

I have Ai set to expert and "Super AI" truned on - super...

Do me a favor and try this cenario in another game... wait there is noone?

Seriously i doubt its that easy to have the ultimate AI on a game like ArmA, things that work in a shooter where you have very limited levels wont work on a huge free island me thinks.

In OFP you would have a similar outcome aswell.

So before bashing BIS you maybe should think about how difficult it is to have a AI acting smart in such type of Game.

[Lor 0]

OP

Do me a favor and try this cenario in another game... wait there is noone?

Seriously i doubt its that easy to have the ultimate AI on a game like ArmA, things that work in a shooter where you have very limited levels wont work on a huge free island me thinks.

In OFP you would have a similar outcome aswell.

Ah - thank you. This is precisely what I was thinking in response to this post, and you've put it very well.

There are problems with the AI in ArmA - everyone knows it. That's because ArmA is a complex game, and the AI is totally dynamic, not scripted at all.

Come on guys, seriously, stop posting about the AI. If you notice something really wrong, submit a bug report, but we've really had enough "OMG LOOK IN DIS CASE TEH AI RUNS IN CIRCLEZZ!!!?!??!?".

[M.Andersson(SWE) 4]

my point is this: programming a convincing AI is the most difficult - if not impossible - part in every game and I doubt that we will see any significant improvement anytime soon.

Not really...

Its just a matter of time...

You would need like Millions of "what ifs" and "then do"

in the code. And especially the recognition code is verry

important to AI. Like "This is a Road", "use as" and "use to".

But like i said it takes A LOT of time to write these

codes...

[whisper 0]

Well, OK, no other do it, granted.

But, at least sometimes, really, the AI reaction are pathetic.

As much as it can also be good, there are things that need a good code-looking by BI. The very issue here is reproducing the issue 100% of the time to determine the root cause, I guess.

In all "AI issues" thread and TT, Suma asked for repro-steps that were nearly never really provided. Some answer "play mission X, FFS!!", and when I play them, I get none of the issues described, others try to describe situations, and once more, I saw in game the same situations with different results, good ones and bad ones.

So it's very difficult to trace down the root issues.

Which doesn't mean they shouldn't be traced and addressed

[Lor 0]

Well, OK, no other do it, granted.

But, at least sometimes, really, the AI reaction are pathetic.

As much as it can also be good, there are things that need a good code-looking by BI. The very issue here is reproducing the issue 100% of the time to determine the root cause, I guess.

In all "AI issues" thread and TT, Suma asked for repro-steps that were nearly never really provided. Some answer "play mission X, FFS!!", and when I play them, I get none of the issues described, others try to describe situations, and once more, I saw in game the same situations with different results, good ones and bad ones.

So it's very difficult to trace down the root issues.

Which doesn't mean they shouldn't be traced and addressed

Very true. People possibly don't understand that with such a complex thing as dynamic AI, you'd need a mission that reproduces an issue nearly 100% of the time, and ONLY reproduces THAT behaviour, in order to study it and possibly solve it.

I still think it would help to perhaps have one thread 'AI Issues' - or even 'ArmA Issues/Bugs' that people could post this stuff in. The first post could contain instructions telling people that they must reproduce the error for it to be addressed.

[Lor 0]

my point is this: programming a convincing AI is the most difficult - if not impossible - part in every game and I doubt that we will see any significant improvement anytime soon.

Not really...

Its just a matter of time...

You would need like Millions of "what ifs" and "then do"

in the code. And especially the recognition code is verry

important to AI. Like "This is a Road", "use as" and "use to".

But like i said it takes A LOT of time to write these

codes...

No, it's not just a matter of time, it's extremely difficult.

It's ok to have a million 'what ifs' in the code, but that's a stupid way to approach the problem, and it would grind performance to a halt to go through all those checks each frame of game, for -every- AI unit on the field.

What you need to do is to package those million 'what ifs' in an incredibly clever way, along with all the information about every unit, organised in another incredibly clever way, that reduces the amount needed to be done each frame. You need to come up with hugely complex yet complexity reducing data structures. And that is immensely difficult to do.

[mattxr 9]

Ever been to Iraq and gotten a RPG fired at your face?

Its realistic.

[krycek 349]

The most irritating thing is that AI units sometimes completely ignore enemies within few meters and in a clear field of view. They just follow some enemy that is 200+ meters away for example.

I've reported this problem(including a mission) to Suma months ago and he said that will be fixed.On flat terrain with distances between 50-100m sometimes Abrams tanks are destroyed easily by T72,and although they have plenty time to fire the M1A1 don't fire a single shot and standing like idiots,other times they wipe the floor in seconds with the enemy tanks.This happens like I said in the same scenario,small distance,no obstacles,flat terrain with tanks facing each other.I don't expect the M1A1 to be an Rambo tank but to see situations like this in Arma reminds me of that crap game Soldner where tanks were dueling with their turrets.

I'm sorry to say but this AI tank targeting oddities weren't in OFP 1.0.

Not my style to bash BIS because I have great respect for these guys trying to give people military sims and actually repairing their games,but if this isn't fixed in 1.08(didn't had time to play with it) then I'll be pissed.

[NeMeSiS 11]

my point is this: programming a convincing AI is the most difficult - if not impossible - part in every game and I doubt that we will see any significant improvement anytime soon.

Not really...

Its just a matter of time...

You would need like Millions of "what ifs" and "then do"

in the code. And especially the recognition code is verry

important to AI. Like "This is a Road", "use as" and "use to".

But like i said it takes A LOT of time to write these

codes...

And then look at your poor CPU going up in flames...

Im quite happy with the ArmA AI, generally it works fine, thats why the faults stand out so much IMO, but as mentioned you cannot program a 100% correct fully dynamic AI as you cannot forsee every possible situation (For those who think you can: Please go and mess with the formation.fsm and prove me wrong).

And even if you can, then we everyone would be complaining about the performace.

(And say whatever you want, but the ArmA AI is very efficient, i dont know any other game that lets me have such huge battles in such a large area. But even when the battle takes place in a smaller area which is cramped with units the performance still doesnt suffer that much.)

[Balschoiw 0]

A fully working AI (being able to adjust to any situation that can occur) can only be achieved realistically by real artificial intelligence, that learns by trial and error over a long period of time in a sandbox and then is transferred to the product. Still, as it wouldn´t stop improving it´s patterns it would simply toast almost every gamer in a confrontation, be it John Rambo or Stephen W. Hawking. Apart from the CPU power needed to achieve that, I guess it´s where the a game gets unplayable.

It´s like putting your chess computer on highest skill. Will you win ? Will you even come close to win ?

[dreday 1]

It´s like putting your chess computer on highest skill. Will you win ? Will you even come close to win ?  

I see your point, but I don't think that the chess analogy is a good one. There are way more controlling variables in ArmA than they are in chess. Let's say that you are playing against the stellar AI, you might still be successful if you have an advantage in terrain and or firepower on your side.

Besides, the AI could be programmed to have the human-like weakness (i.e. state of shock/panic) that will limit its perfection.

While strong AI might present a problem for some; personally I would love to have that problem. Unfortunately we are nowhere close to that...

Peace,

DreDay

[Whargod 0]

I thought the soldiers firing RPG's at other soldiers was an AI improvement? It's totally realistic! It happens in real life just as Matt Rochelle said.

On the subject of AI, it's actually hard to make the AI dumb in certain respects and make it smart in others. In reality the computer knows your position and what you're doing at all times so the AI has to be made dumb in order to function realistically. This is a real challenge, believe me.

As for making it smart, there are the endless possibilities as others have pointed out. It would take the power of all our PC's to make a truly realistic AI, and that's just in the context of this game. The best we can really hope for is an AI that will keep things challenging and maybe a little random most of the time.

I've personally never actually encountered a "good" AI in a game, ever. There are some that can fake it pretty well but overall most of them just don't cut it. But that doesn't mean the games suck, it just means you have to get creative as to how you play!

[Phantom Mark 0]

Quote[/b] ]I don't expect the M1A1 to be an Rambo tank but to see situations like this in Arma reminds me of that crap game Soldner where tanks were dueling with their turrets.

Sorry but ROFL.........man I can just imagine that sheite, maybe I should have bought that game for the comedy value  

[Money 0]

Since 1.08 I have seen a few AI tanks waste all their MGun rounds on dead corpses

[Mr_Tea 0]

AI problems can be produced by an CPU working at the limit.

When there is not enough CPU power left to calculate the AI, strange things can happen.

[Whargod 0]

Ah, good point, I never thought of that. They probably short circuit the AI and other "non-essential" services when teh CPU load gets to be too great.

Time to upgrade people!

[inferno7312 0]

Ai soldier still waste RPG to enemy soldier???

I havenot  seen it since 1.08.

Ai in 1.08 is improved very well, AI plane is fire to the enemy, Av8b fires their GUB to laser target. A lot of major bugs have been fixed.

[M. D. Geist 0]

Conditional programming (if, else) is a lazy mans approach, and has no place in the modern world of OOP. Not to mention the CPU load such code would cause.

Unfortunately, software programming has reached its limits; its impossible to design software that can emulate sentient life.

IMO, the only solution to our AI problems will be AI cards (similar to graphic or physics cards); emulating a human brain.