Marek's Comment on Tools...

[lwlooz 0]

Hello RockofSL , I can't answer you questions , but I can give you a piece of advice.

1. This community does not appreciate questioning BIS's actions.

2. Suggestions that could be helpful for the community are to be ridiculed by all means.

3. The only people that are being taken serious around here are guys whos sole field of expertise is in sucking up to other people.

You know BI forums motto: Be Happy

[DrBobcat 0]

Hello RockofSL , I can't answer you questions , but I can give you a piece of advice.

1. This community does not appreciate questioning BIS's actions.

2. Suggestions that could be helpful for the community are to be ridiculed by all means.

3. The only people that are being taken serious around here are guys whos sole field of expertise is in sucking up to other people.

You know BI forums motto: Be Happyâ„¢

Corrections...

1. Questioning BIS' actions doesn't make tools become developed and released faster. If they somehow do, they're going to be buggy and less desirable by the community.

2. Suggestions that could be helpful for the community should be stated as such, not as oblivious, childish rants.

3. The only people that are being taken serious around are people whose sole existence doesn't revolve around groaning, moaning, and complaining.

- dRb

[blackdog~ 0]

<span style='color:green'><span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Greetings,

As president, leader, website designer, and PR manager for the SWLBTCM</span><span style='color:green'></span> <span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>mod, we are in desperate need for the toolz so we can begin importation of our modelz.

I have the feeling that if the toolz are not releazed soon, we will have no other choice but to shut down our modification.

Thank you,

blackdog

representing the Sharks With Laser Beams Total Conversion Module Team</span></span></span>[/size]

edit: this forum fails on ibcode. i give up on formatting this post.

[welshtrigg 0]

Quote[/b] ]

The existing OFP/ARMA 3rd Party texture, and PBO tools etc <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>--> do the same function as <--</span> the tools BIS are planning on releasing.

Your underlying premise is flawed, stop making a riot when your assumptions do not reflect how the tools and more importantly the workflow process works. Further attempts to bastardize the generation two system by insisting on generation one rules will ruin the way it is intended to work.

-end-

wow that was a really mature & helpful answer,rockape as a addon maker is just asking questions,rather than put a pointless post like this up,why not try and help answer his questions?..aw bollox why borther these addon makers are noone important,they just keepet ofp alive for how many years?

[max power 21]

I must admit that while I disapprove of what I perceive as a sort of a criticism out of ignorance (note that these are strong words but they are not meant in a pejorative way), people posting 'I know what's going on and you don't so shut your hole' isn't getting this thread anywhere. I don't believe there is an attempt to bastardize, but a genuine lack of knowledge regarding how things must work. Lording behind-the-scenes awesomeness over us isn't going to do us any good.

[shinRaiden 0]

Let me spell it out in klere engrish :

The BIS tools do not do the same function as the community tools do, for the precise reason that the workflow is different in many crucial ways from how you're used to creating content.

Assuming that the community tools already fill the function of the BIS tools assumes a certain position about the workflow of the content creation process, groundless assumptions which if insisted on, signficantly complicate your ability as an addon maker to make effective use of the significant platform and tools developments BIS has made.

It would be unwise of Marek to release an editor before releasing a pipeline. In fact, further proof of this is in the community's interest in doing simple retextures for initial testing and exploration. Retextures by and large do not require model editing, however any and all content modifications of any sort do require proper process pipeline tools. Marek knows the tools, and why he's choosing to release them in the order that he is. To presume otherwise is to second-guess him off incorrect assumptions on how you intend to create content.

----------------------------------

On a different matter, I have neither the time nor the permission to spell out every last detail. Furthermore, it would be unproductive even if I could. Rather, my intent is to offer a more diplomatic solution, by stating "trust Marek on this one." This thread started off as a rather cranky attack on Marek's judgement, and frankly imho should have been reported / locked etc. There's no need for the community to tear itself apart irrationally, all I'm asking for the good of the community which has benefited everyone alike: calm down, chill out, turn off your computer, go outside, and enjoy some fresh air. It's only a game, and there's more to life than that.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

I do have to wonder about one thing, though...

If BIS is going to release a full-version Oxygen 2 or if they are going to release an Oxygen 2 Light only. Because time has proven again and again that community-made addons with the "Light" edition of Oxygen have provided players with far more advanced and better addons than BIS have ever fielded, and that is bound to happen with ArmA as well... BIS really shouldn't waste time turning Oxygen 2 into a "light" version, but should rather make Oxygen 2 english full version as robust as possible and release it as they use it as well, IMHO...

[.kju 3244]

Just a few notes:

Name your topic and its sub-heading smart to make the

idea and the topic you like to discuss very clear.

Make your posts short and as explicit as possible

(choose your words carefully - less blabla, less misunderstanding).

The issue here in question is:

Why does BI intend to release the model tools in that order -

does it make sense for the modders.

The forum is mainly for community member to community

(member) talk - if you intend to talk to BI, you should rather

write them a mail to support@bistudio.com or write Suma a PM.

You better be aware of that - so always question your intention

and decide which way is most appropriate.

As for the BI's reasons, the actual implications, the reality,

importance of different matters, etc etc - THATS OTHER TOPIC.

hope that helps

[whisper 0]

i really do wonder sometimes why people do that . nothing to contribute to the debate as a whole i think i will make a blindingly obvious statement add a rolling eye smiley and go.?

well i guess its one of lifes mysteries

might as well join in seeing this really dont add to the debate

Awww dear!

Because you really thing there is any matter to debate, perhaps? I put rolleyes simley because, gues what, I am STATING THE OBVIOUS.

BI will release the tools in the order they are finished. The first to be finished is the shorter to be done => the first to be released is the shorter to be done. It's not rocket science.

As

simple

as

that.

Bitching about that is utterly pointless, imho. Hence my reaction.

And contrary to some, I don't need pages and pages of rant to get my point accross.

[MehMan 0]

In fact, further proof of this is in the community's interest in doing simple retextures for initial testing and exploration.

I believe this is being done because it is the only mod work that is possible to be done correctly. Not because we are interested in it, we just can't do anything else that would work properly.

[baddo 0]

Dear All,

I apologize for any possible misunderstandings from my part.

The thing is, I bet BIS employees are having a good time reading our posts when we make guesses on how their company works, who is working on what, when we absolutely have no clue what is happening there. That must be entertaining to read for them (hopefully). "Haha, they have absolutely no clue!"

I think we should just let them release any tools in any order they happen to do it, does it really matter in the end? After all, the main priority is elsewhere than in the tools as I already said. It takes them X amount of time to accomplish the task with the bigger tools. If the X is bigger than some people want them what can we do? Not much, other than trust them to know what they are doing, better than we do.

With Love,

Baddo.

[Jezz 0]

Quote[/b] ]

I believe this is being done because it is the only mod work that is possible to be done correctly. Not because we are interested in it, we just can't do anything else that would work properly.

Not really i know talking to kenji he nearly has a fully working version of his t-62 in arma. Though it sounds like the difficulty level of geting stuff to work is near vertical using the old tools and the lack of info. There will probably be a video released sometime in the near future i think

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

In fact, further proof of this is in the community's interest in doing simple retextures for initial testing and exploration.

I believe this is being done because it is the only mod work that is possible to be done correctly. Not because we are interested in it, we just can't do anything else that would work properly.

From what I've read in these forums, even the game by itself can't be played correctly...

[deanosbeano 0]

Let me spell it out in klere engrish :

The BIS tools do not do the same function as the community tools do, for the precise reason that the workflow is different in many crucial ways from how you're used to creating content.

Assuming that the community tools already fill the function of the BIS tools assumes a certain position about the workflow of the content creation process, groundless assumptions which if insisted on, signficantly complicate your ability as an addon maker to make effective use of the significant platform and tools developments BIS has made.

It would be unwise of Marek to release an editor before releasing a pipeline. In fact, further proof of this is in the community's interest in doing simple retextures for initial testing and exploration. Retextures by and large do not require model editing, however any and all content modifications of any sort do require proper process pipeline tools. Marek knows the tools, and why he's choosing to release them in the order that he is. To presume otherwise is to second-guess him off incorrect assumptions on how you intend to create content.

----------------------------------

On a different matter, I have neither the time nor the permission to spell out every last detail. Furthermore, it would be unproductive even if I could. Rather, my intent is to offer a more diplomatic solution, by stating "trust Marek on this one." This thread started off as a rather cranky attack on Marek's judgement, and frankly imho should have been reported / locked etc. There's no need for the community to tear itself apart irrationally, all I'm asking for the good of the community which has benefited everyone alike: calm down, chill out, turn off your computer, go outside, and enjoy some fresh air. It's only a game, and there's more to life than that.

How can you sleep at night with this double persona ?

It is widely known and accepted that you yourself do not think the community should be in a position to question anything Bis do or have any input into how they do it and would lock any such threads in an instance.

i qoute your recent thoughts on how to create a Bis sponsored modification of elite content from ofpe elite to arma, in my summary of your attitude towards the community.

Quote[/b] ]

There should be some form of hidden decision board though, in order to effectively make the decisions required to make this project a success, without the nonsense meddling and uninformed and juvenile harassment that would inevitablely ensue. Shinraiden

it was the suggested that the information gained would be then

shared to all on a read only basis .

unfortunately the desicion was made to keep a closed door type forum to all informations on porting and other such much needed info. a desicion it would seem altho not made by yourself ,it would be safe to assume from your previous toughts a desiscion you would agree on.

Quote[/b] ]On a different matter, I have neither the time nor the permission to spell out every last detail.

so when you make statements like the above . Please do not patronise those of us that are not juvenile and not going to harass and yes we are uninformed because any information that does exist is kept well away from us minions.

It would be a massive error on your part if you felt that in anyway you are a great communicator of bis to the community or vice versa.You are infact the complete opposite and are one of a group of 5 or 6 that have done nothing for arma since its conception and subsequent release apart from try to intelectually bully any form of suggestion that Bis should be open to sugestions from the community regarding either arma content or arma future tool release..

yes there are bissign to think about and elimination of tkc pbos yes there is the method to stop any missiing addon error and use of the new Tag system and all this does need to be tested and its use put into a uniformed and easy to use format.

nobody denies this.thats why this thread was here to offer opinions and not Demand Demand Demand.

Now back to the topic, this is not a want want want ,it is a what do you think aout the statement by marek, somepeople have turned it into a look at the idots demanding how bis should run there buisness, this is not a surprise i could link 7 or 8 other stifled debates and you will find the same 3 or 4 people trying to stifle those threads to.

My opinion as stated before on this subject is:

Bis should release the island tools and then oxygen in that order , as soon as possible but no sooner than is possible.

my reasons are easily found in previous posts.

yours

DB

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Well hasn’t this thread turned into a “Fanboys vs The Restâ€.

@ShinRaiden  - you obviously know more than the rest of us. Which is really very nice for you I’m sure.  It gives you that really nice and friendly superior attitude you have that lovely morning fresh and self righteous shine.  Thanks so much for the vague and condescending reply.  But you really and obviously haven’t read the thread properly.

You seem convinced that I’m saying “don’t make X,Y,Z tool because we only need O2â€.  When in fact all I’m saying is, “surely we need O2 first and the rest laterâ€.  I’m not suggesting anything that isn’t clearly stated my first post. If you have an axe to grind then with me please do it in private.

We’re told absolutely nothing about the function of Texview2 on the BIKI other than it’s a viewing and conversion tool.  How is that different than the existing texture tools and Kegety’s PS plugin?

I’d be happy to “Trust Marek on this†if I understood the logic behind it.  But with the public information we have right now there just isn’t any evidence of a fantastic difference between the legacy viewing tools and their new counterparts.  If you or anyone at BIS would perhaps care to explain why the difference is so fundamental to ArmA then perhaps we wouldn’t post threads questioning their logic.

@Blackdog~ - Grow up, if you can’t take part in a discussion without jumping in and behaving like a child then don’t bother.

@:Q  

The forum is mainly for community member to community

(member) talk - if you intend to talk to BI, you should rather

write them a mail to support@bistudio.com or write Suma a PM.

hope that helps  

I wasn’t asking BIS anything I was asking the community their opinion. Past experience of email BIS has taught me not to bother them with things like this.  But after several debates with people I play online with, it seemed like a valid question.  Obviously this has been seen as an attack on BIS by the “Fanboy Army†and has descended into utter pointless posting.

In fact, further proof of this is in the community's interest in doing simple retextures for initial testing and exploration.

I believe this is being done because it is the only mod work that is possible to be done correctly. Not because we are interested in it, we just can't do anything else that would work properly.

I’d agree with you completely. Talking with other teams most people don’t see the point of retextures.  The majority would much rather spend their time making and adapting their existing models.  Which is why I posted this thread in the first place.  AND even considering the shit I’m getting for it I still think it’s a valid question given the current lack of any other logical reason not to ask the question.

Now if BIS don’t want me asking the question then fine. Lock the thread and delete my account and ban me, But until then either contribute to the discussion with information or opinions or don’t post.  It’s really that simple.

[Rhodite 3]

...

Now if BIS don’t want me asking the question then fine. Lock the thread and delete my account and ban me, But until then either contribute to the discussion with information or opinions or don’t post.  It’s really that simple.

Your question and discussion so far is perfectly fine (when its constructive).

No one at BIS is asking you to be silent.

Everyone will have opinions on how BIS should do things, and no doubt they will be damned if they do and damned if they don't because of that.

All I ask is stay on topic folks and keep it clean

Thanks

[Jackal326 1179]

Althought this isn't fully releated to the topic, it does relate to the tools, and I didn't think it warranted another thread.

Anyway, I was just wondering if those of us in the 'ModMaker' user group would be privvy to any BETAs of the tools, as was the case for OFP's early tools (where the user group originated from for those of you that don't know).

[xnodunitx 0]

I agree with the act of releasing the model editor first. As great as binarization and textview2 would be, they to an extent do what we can do right now, we can already do re-textures.

However the thing that makes O2"2" so important is the fact that we simply cannot fully create/import addons to full efficieny within the Armed Assault engine at the current time.

We cannot add the more special texture maps to our vehicles, normal maps, speculiar and something else if I'm not mistaken. Therefore those of us without the more expensive software such as Max, Maya, Lightwave and others, cannot preview and therefore examine the errors/incorrections within these textures.

Although I am thankful that Marek has released some information applying to the tools and that things will be released soon, the reason O2 "2" is being "fought" for so much is because it is at the moment the absolute most necessary tool, without it we cannot define the new named selections and the things stated above.

[-HUNTER- 1]

Guys...

WTF!...

The game has been released now for 24 hours or something. OFP is from 2000... Atleast five full years old. With tons and tons of stuff. But how many addons where there in the beginning.

I do understand the point as to why release stuff while we cant use it yet. But then again if you get this stuff working ok, then they can focus fully on the main editor!

I can wait!

Even for the RKSL addons....

Still gotta buy some new kit for the pc aswell...

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Guys...

WTF!...

The game has been released now for 24 hours or something. OFP is from 2000... Atleast five full years old. With tons and tons of stuff. But how many addons where there in the beginning.

I do understand the point as to why release stuff while we cant use it yet. But then again if you get this stuff working ok, then they can focus fully on the main editor!

I can wait!  

Even for the RKSL addons....    

Still gotta buy some new kit for the pc aswell...  

DEAR FROGGIN' GOD!

Have you actually read the thread!  I'm obviously writing in some mystic incomprehensible language. This isnt about getting the tools right now...its about the priority.

Go back and read the thread properly.

[max power 21]

To be quite honest, I think you may be speaking in a mystical language. Taken in context of the way these threads usually go, there is sort of an implicit demand or complaint in the way the topic was presented. The fact that almost everyone who's reading the topic gets it wrong alludes to the fact that, in whatever capacity, you have communicated something that was not intended. You should edit the initial post a bit with a disclaimer or something!

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

To be quite honest, I think you may be speaking in a mystical language.  Taken in context of the way these threads usually go, there is sort of an implicit demand or complaint in the way the topic was presented.  The fact that almost everyone who's reading the topic gets it wrong alludes to the fact that, in whatever capacity, you have communicated something that was not intended.  You should edit the initial post a bit with a disclaimer or something!

Its strange, I’ve spent a large part of today discussing this thread with people in IRC and on Skype.  Not one person who actually read the post properly seemed confused by what I posted.  I really do not see how people have gotten the wrong end of the message. Or the need of some to prove their (assumed) interlectual prowess over others.

Am I the only one that is totally dumbfounded by the logic of releasing all the other tools before releasing Oxygen 2?

I realise that they are perhaps “easy hitsâ€, being small scale apps that are easily tested and released, but considering all the 3rd part tools left over from OFP and the new tools released by Kegety etc why do we need them?  Surely the community’s priority will be the new O2 and not some superfluous little apps?  The binarising tools are simply pointless given we don’t have anything to binarise since we can’t edit models without O2!

Anyone else equally confused?

It seems the confusion comes from the posts from people that misunderstood what was actually posted and went off on their own tangent posting in response to what they think I said.

It’s the “Taken in context of the way these threads usually go†comment that really highlights the posting habits of this community.  They see what they think is going to be a “slag BIS off thread†and jump on board not understanding what is actually being said.  Then you get others that do the same and they try to rationalise their responses.  And then you get 4 pages for useless rubbish with the odd intelligent post stuck inbetween.

[xnodunitx 0]

Yes I can understand that the game has been out for a short time and yeah it seems that many have misread or misinterpreted this thread.  We aren't really demanding the tools, as stated.  We are just thinking about priority.  

Yes it is more important to finish the game up before releasing the tools, however that situation is not valid in this conversation as per the announcement of the tools being released.

It works well for both parties, there isn't necessarily a con in this situation.  

A.  The community gets the desired editor and can therefore experiment with many things and many new upgrades that Armed Assault offers.

B.  The producers benefit because lately many people have been porting over to Armed Assault for the fact that we have stated several times "The devs listen", by the producers releasing what we asked/begged for, they earn more creditintial with the community and possible newcommers and backs up our statement by a large degree.  

Making addons early on in the game isn't really bad either, by seeing what people can do with the engine, what they can create for it, may attract new customers.  I have seen many people buy a game simply to mod it to something completely different because its engine had that extra pazzaz.  

The community gains more interest and desire to work with the producers, help the game evolve and improve through work.  I understand that the producers have busted their rears and gone through many problems in the developing stages of Armed Assault.  The work is great, the work is wonderful, the way things look are some of the best I'v seen to date on any game, even moreso for the fact that its not a simple FPS.  However what pain is given by the community creating their own things early? And I don't mean just retextures.

[Potatomasher 0]

I have seen many people buy a game simply to mod it to something completely different because its engine had that extra pazzaz.

I bought F12002 game only because of GTR mod many years ago.

[mrj-fin 0]

I have seen many people buy a game simply to mod it to something completely different because its engine had that extra pazzaz.

I bought F12002 game only because of GTR mod many years ago.

Same thing is that I bought Unreal Tournament 2004 only for Red Orchestra.

So if the contects arent atrractive in orginal products but it can afford a expansions what prove those ntresting things u will not thing twice.