Marek's Comment on Tools...

[Thunderbird 0]

In my judgement, the point behind the release of these tools before the main one, [Oxygen II], is simply and certainly due to the fact that they have been accomplished first, they probably required less efforts and less time to get' em done, unlike the second variant of O2, which might require more time (Probably to remove some 'functions' we don't have to be aware of), so, instead of keeping them unreleased until having all of the tools completely finished, BIS probably prefered to share every 'supposingly finished' tool with the community, which is very appreciated here.

regards,

TB

[whisper 0]

Hi,

please try to understand that the game has much higher priority than any of the development tools. If you read the interview again, there Marek Španěl clearly says what they are doing when they are not working on the development tools. The interview confirms what I said before: there is no team at BIS working only on the development tools, they are the same people who work on the game. That being the case, let them do the patches, let them release the game where they want to release it, only after that start to ask for the development tools if you didn't get them by then. There are much more people out there who want the game and the patches and don't care about any development tool and their needs has to be addressed first. If you think about it from a business point-of-view then it makes very, very much sense. You could of course try to buy the development tools from BIS and see if that speeds things up for you.

What you can do in the mean time. I am sure you can use some another modelling tool to create your models. It can even be a much better choice for many people to not try to make their models from scratch in a limited program similar to Oxygen 2 Light, as it severely lacks functionalities, like the very important "Extrude" for starters. I am sure you can start creating island addons for Armed Assault already, as creating such addons takes quite a lot of planning and designing if a better-than-low quality is desired.

Best Wishes,

Baddo.

You've totally missed the point. Read the thread properly.

We're talking about the release schedule of the tools AFTER the game is sorted.

Its virtually pointless to release Texture tools and especially the binarise tool if we cant actually get the models in game and working. Which obvioulsy we need the O2 to do!

Having re read your post again - i knwo know you dont know what you are talking about.

You can model what you like in Max etc but it wont let you get them in game. You need O2 for that, yes you can use O2Lite from OFP. BUT you cant do any animations or units with it... as for Islands... ArmAs island system uses a totally different system than OFP so there is nothing anyone can do to start makign addons othe than collect dems.

So you arent exactly speakign fomr a high ground of knowledge are you? I appreciate what you are attempting to say but you aren't exactly understanding what others are saying are you.

Time to make a public version of TexView : 10 minutes

Time to make a public version of O2 : 45 days

Guess which one is released 1st

[max power 21]

I know how they can solve all of your problems! Publish no tools until 02 is finished, then you get nothing for months... but at least they will be releasing them in a logical order that won't offend your sensibilities in terms of workflow pipeline.

[deanosbeano 0]

i really do wonder sometimes why people do that . nothing to contribute to the debate as a whole i think i will make a blindingly obvious statement add a rolling eye smiley and go.?

well i guess its one of lifes mysteries

might as well join in seeing this really dont add to the debate

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Time to make a public version of TexView : 10 minutes

Time to make a public version of O2 : 45 days

Guess which one is released 1st  

Sighs...read my first post again...

I was asking about the logic of releasing tools we can't actually use without the new O2. It doesnt make sense to release them before O2.

So why release them at all until we get O2 or Visitor3. In which case lets go with plaintiff's suggestion and just wait and get all the tools in one lot?

[Thunderbird 0]

And why not release them as soon as they are done? what is the point of not publishing them until they are all are finished together?

IMO, as stated above, BIS probably have their own reasons for not releasing the second variant of O2 immediately, otherwise they would probably have already done it.

Regards,

TB

[baddo 0]

Hi again

RockofSL. No I did not miss the point, I read the thread carefully before replying, in order to make sure I did not miss anything. I do understand that you are confused about the order in which BIS plans to release the tools - but I find that very insignificant compared to the fact that the game has not been released for a large part of the prospective customers. The patches have also much higher priority in my opinion. You want the 3D modelling tool and the island editing tool released. Maybe it is not possible to do that in the available time. Maybe there must be work done in order to get the game published in some countries. Maybe there must be work done on the patches. Isn't it clear for you too that BIS releases the small tools first because that's probably much easier and they want to give you at least something?

Please do not make assumptions of the level of knowledge and experience I possess. Do you know me well-enough in order to say what I know and what I don't know? Do I need to prove you that I know something about making 3D models for OFP? Do I need to prove you my knowledge in 3D modelling? Do I need to prove you that I know what kind of functionalities are needed in a 3D modelling program in order to create 3D models fast and efficiently? Do I need to prove you that those functionalities are non-existant in O2L and are very, very unlikely to appear in the next version? Do I need to prove you that I have both significant amount of education and significant amount of full-time work experience in several state-of-the-art 3D CAD programs and I recognize what is a good and efficient 3D modelling program and what is not? No I don't. I am not here to prove such things.

Deanosbeano. What you are talking about, that's not even close to a comment on what I said! Thank you for making a nice un-counter-argument.

The reaction from RockofSL is unfortunately what I feared, but definitely did not hope, to receive. Last time I voiced the same opinion on this very same subject (in a more ranting style I admit that, but I did not commit any personal attacks that time either) I received a personal attack asking who I am and did I ever do anything, plus other people came to support the personal attack. Now, RockofSL is questioning my knowledge on the subject of modelling for OFP, saying that I am not understanding the creation process and I am not speaking from a "high ground of knowledge". A personal attack based on pure imagination which has nothing to do with what I said. Do not judge people if you know nothing about them or about what they have done, please.

It does not surprise me anymore that people behave like this in this forum. It is called Elite-behaviour. Unfortunately many people seem to practice such behaviour here, making this a hostile place for comments and opinions not coming from members who think they truly are Elite.

RockofSL, I appreciate you and your contributions. I do not question your knowledge, other than what you tried to imply of me. I believe that you are a good person. As such, please refrain from making personal attacks.

Best Wishes,

Baddo.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

And why not release them as soon as they are done? what is the point of not publishing them until they are all are finished together?

IMO, as stated above, BIS probably have their own reasons for not  releasing the second variant of O2 immediately, otherwise they would probably have already done it.

What would be the point of a series of drawn out releases that don’t serve any purpose until we get the main tool?  If you have a use for them then maybe its worth while but the point I was making and you seem to eternally ignore is that if resources are being devoted to finishing a public version of Texview etc, tools similar (and if the biki is to be belived) just like some of the 3rd party tools we already have, why not focus that effort on providing/converting a public version of O2?  Not an unreasonable leap of logic that is apparently shared by others too.

[Col. Faulkner 0]

Can the texture viewer and binarizing tools in fact be

used for anything at all on their own? Would they be

of use to those doing retexturing of the BIS models,

for example?

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Can the texture viewer and binarizing tools in fact be

used for anything at all on their own? Would they be

of use to those doing retexturing of the BIS models,

for example?

Sounds like logic to me, since looking back at the earliest addons for OFP, the first things to be released were retextured BIS stuff...

Though I agree with RockofSL, in that a fully english-speaking and easier-to-install Oxygen II needs to be released ASAP... and who knows, maybe I'll join the ranks of addonmakers as well if I ever get to grips with it...

[deanosbeano 0]

Quote[/b] ]Deanosbeano. What you are talking about, that's not even close to a comment on what I said! Thank you for making a nice un-counter-argument.

because you said the game must come first , its an obvious statement and one with which has been repeatedly said and by doing so i find it patronising.

It is the engine that come first the game is was and always will be community made content.

why waste all that time on new scenarios for every continental release ?

just use that time to get the tools out.

its a very selfish point on my side i now, but sometimes if you feel something is right you say it.

I cant put it any plainer than who the hell wants to play ofp elite content or ww2 content when its been done over and over and over again .(not ww2 africa i hasten to add,thought that was a refreshing idea)

its had its day ceased to be pleasurable. and once agian i seek not to influence you or anybody else. i merely come here to put my own ideas. its simple as that for me.

[fubarno1 0]

I hate to even suggest this, but maybe its more than likely to restrict the community from porting and adding new content before they have the opportunity to release something else an upgrade/addon that needs to be purchased, makes good business sense to milk ArmA for all its worth while they can before releasing modding tools.

But then again if 1.05 is not as good as most people are hoping it is, then ArmA is going to need a lifeline and I think that can only be in the modding tools and the community that have the skills to use them, without the extra content to keep people interested in ArmA then I don't really see a bright future for it. We get bored of using the same units time and time again if there is no extra scope to change how something plays.

I would like to have seen how OFP/Res would have coped without the extra content the community built, I would also have liked to see if interest in OFP/Res grew once the modding tools were released, I know I would not have played OFP/Res for so long if it was not for the community's addons/Islands/Missions, it would probably serve BIS better to work on tools that the community can use now to get extra content into the game which would leave them breathing space to deal with engine/performance issues.

God knows what Atari have demanded from BIS for their release in May, but with BIS being so small they are not going to have the man power to address Atari, 1.05 issues and extra content or addon that they may have planned never mind the tools  

[Average Joe 0]

Only afew more months worth of retextured soldiers guys and Im sure every single combat force in the world will have been created using the BIS models

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

RockofSL. No I did not miss the point, .

You’ve done it again.  You’ve just read something into my intent that simply wasn’t there.  You’ve assumed I’m demanding the release of O2 like some kind of hostage.

Let’s clear this up.  I’m not suggesting for a second that BIS drop everything and work solely on the tools right now.  Which is what you seem to think I am saying.  What I am suggesting is:

1) BIS Release patch 1.05

2) BIS Continue to work on bug fixes etc for the release of the N American Versions

3) Along the way BIS have guys working on aspects of the toolset.

Now my question revolves around a simple premise:

The existing OFP/ARMA 3rd Party texture, and PBO  tools etc do the same function as the tools BIS are planning on releasing.  Would it not be better to devote whatever resources BIS are currently employing to finalise these ‘lesser’ tools, into creating/finalising a Public version of O2?

The purpose of my initial post was to voice my confusion and to gauge others opinions on the logical order of release.  And by doing so perhaps give BIS some indication of what priority the community would prefer.

The reaction from RockofSL is unfortunately what I feared, but definitely did not hope, to receive. Last time I voiced the same opinion on this very same subject (in a more ranting style I admit that, but I did not commit any personal attacks that time either) I received a personal attack asking who I am and did I ever do anything, plus other people came to support the personal attack. Now, RockofSL is questioning my knowledge on the subject of modelling for OFP, saying that I am not understanding the creation process and I am not speaking from a "high ground of knowledge". A personal attack based on pure imagination which has nothing to do with what I said. Do not judge people if you know nothing about them or about what they have done, please.

Yes we could get things modelled up.  But then what?  You couldn’t get the animations, turrets or anything else working?  You could create new unit models in various kit…but then what you cant get them in game.  

But you’re right I cant really judge you because I don’t know you.  So I have only your post to respond to.

Now my comments directed at you were in response to aspects of your posts about what it takes to get an addon in game and working.  You suggest using ‘other’ tools to get it in game as though that was all it took.  That leads me to question your knowledge of the OFP/ArmA engines.  I’m not belittling any knowledge of 3D modelling you may or may not have.  But given what you said, you aren’t exactly giving the impression of a very knowledgeable person when it comes to OFP and ArmA addons.

It does not surprise me anymore that people behave like this in this forum. It is called Elite-behaviour. Unfortunately many people seem to practice such behaviour here, making this a hostile place for comments and opinions not coming from members who think they truly are Elite.

RockofSL, I appreciate you and your contributions. I do not question your knowledge, other than what you tried to imply of me. I believe that you are a good person. As such, please refrain from making personal attacks.

My attitude toward you isn’t about “Elite behaviourâ€, its about posting stuff that really and quite honestly is irrelevant given the actual topic.   I don’t claim to know everything nor do I think I’m a cut above the rest.  I still have to ask for help and I’m still willing to help anyone else wanting to make a start modding.  What I do dislike about this forum is the eternal arse kissing and the evangelical attitude of some.  It really doesn’t add to the community only serves to add to the padding that insulates people from reality.

Now if you want to debate my attitude towards you lets do it via PM, if you have something to contribute to the discussion I’m happy to continue.

[max power 21]

@deano replying to his reply to my thow away comment

What debate? The debate whether or not to complain? The debate as to whether or not you know better than the people who are actually working on the tools? There's no debate here, I don't think that it's necessarily helpful to elevate this discussion in your mind to the level of an actual debate.

Let's break it down:

"It sucks that O2 isn't coming out sooner. Everything else is useless."

"Yeah, that sucks. I hear other stuff that sucks, too."

"I think there's a reason for the sucking..."

"Naw, those reason sucks... and the situation still sucks."

Is it clearer now why the comments?

I've been recently illuminated as to what the hubbub is about, but especially in the beginning of the thread there is no indication as to what is going on... and by threatening to leave the community are you looking for someone to provide you with a reason to stay / leave? This is the only debate that's possible in this thread. We can't debate BIS into giving you tools ahead of schedule.

[deanosbeano 0]

lol and that about sums it up the way the community has gone.

i came here to state an opinion and once again it gets twisted taken the piss out of ,without thought nor care.

I dont have any use for the tools , i cant model nor can i make islands.

I offered my opinion has to what i thought the game itself needed , which for the record was an injection of community made addons.thus my opinion was that the tools be released before any more campaigns to release more time as suggested by others for devs to work on the engine.

you came here to take the piss and twist out of all proportions ,the debate about what tools and when.

the reason there is no debate here my friend is because you twisted to another plane about personal attacks on my comments about the tools and the game.

and to be honest i couldnt give a frogs fart anymore

i am just about had enuff.

yours

DB

[max power 21]

lol and that about sums it up the way the community has gone.

i came here to state an opinion and once again it gets twisted taken the piss out of ,without thought nor care.

I dont have any use for the tools , i cant model nor can i make islands.

I offered my opinion has to what i thought the game itself needed , which for the record was an injection of community made addons.thus my opinion was that the tools be released before any more campaigns to release more time as suggested by others for devs to work on the engine.

you came here to take the piss and twist out of all proportions ,the debate about what tools and when.

the reason there is no debate here my friend is because you twisted to another plane about personal attacks on my comments about the tools and the game.

and to be honest i couldnt give a frogs fart anymore

i am just about had enuff.

yours

DB

Are you kidding me? What personal attack? I didn't twist anything. Voicing your opinion is one thing, claiming you are debating something is another. You voiced your opinion, I voiced my opinion of your opinion with some humour and some reductio ad absurdum. What possible discourse is there other than that dynamic on this issue? I think you need to cool down, I'm not after your throat here.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Oh dear god... I really wish i hadnt bothered.  Next time im going to write in crayon in big lower case letter so everyone understands.

@plaintiff1 please stop you arent helping.  This entire thing isnt about whos got the tools and who hasnt.  It was an aside leave it at that.

This entire "Thing" is about the simple a few simple questions:

1) Do we really need Texview and a binarise tool before we even see a new version of O2?

2) If the answer is no, and a majority agree, would if make sense for BIS to refocus their resources?

3) If they did would it make any difference to the release date of O2?

Its not really a hard topic of discussion.  But as usual for these forums people read into it what they will and bring out their own hobby horses to ride around on shouting "look at me im so smart".

If you want continue cat fighting go find another thread.

[Col. Faulkner 0]

Only afew more months worth of retextured soldiers guys and Im sure every single combat force in the world will have been created using the BIS models  

Reminds me of when I was a little kid and painted my

plastic "WW2 Russians" toy soldiers to look like modern

("modern" at that time being 1970s) British

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Can the texture viewer and binarizing tools in fact be

used for anything at all on their own? Would they be

of use to those doing retexturing of the BIS models,

for example?

If they are like their OFP equiavlents then not really no.

Texview would be of some use to the retexturers allowing them to convert the PAA/PAC to an editable format but no more so than some of the 3rd Party tools currently available.

The Binarise tool is again of no practical use sinceits fuinction is to 'optimise' the format of MLOD .P3D files into ODOL format.  Somthign we wouldnt have any use for until we see O2  

If they are done and ready for release fair enough, but if BIS have locked some poor coder in a cupboard feeding him bread and red bull until he finishes them it might be worth directing him towards something the community actually "needs".

[max power 21]

The original argument still stands. Even with the answers to those questions, the only thing you can do is decide whether to like or not. Let us reason about why it may be the way it is.

Obviously BIS is making their decisions based on something. There is probably some internal staffing dynamic. If it is anything there like it is in a production animation studio, I bet some people have some things to do while others are busy full bore overtime every day, and some are looking for something to do to keep them busy. Workflow pipelines are often planned to accomodate the way things move, so they can squeeze small tasks to fill some void space. It might also be that the people who are working on 02 are busy doing something else right now. I don't know if these are the strongest arguments, but they are possibilities. Rest assured, the BIS design pipeline isn't specifically tuned to give you a nervous breakdown.

edit: it is possible that they are completing those tools and then releasing them out the door to serve those who are currently able to make modern ArmA content with their beta testing privilages. It is also possible that there is no point in just sitting on to them so they may as well just release them.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

The original argument still stands.  Even with the answers to those questions, the only thing you can do is decide whether to like or not.  Let us reason about why it may be the way it is.

Well maybe if enough people stand up and say “well actually we don’t really need TexView2 and the Binarise2 tools just yet.† BIS might actually switch priorities; you never know stranger things have happened.

Obviously BIS is making their decisions based on something.  There is probably some internal staffing dynamic…  It might also be that the people who are working on 02 are busy doing something else right now.  I don't know if these are the strongest arguments, but they are possibilities.  

Yes they are, but hey until you ask you don’t actually get to know 100% either way.

Rest assured, the BIS design pipeline isn't specifically tuned to give you a nervous breakdown.

I never thought they were.  I’m not that paranoid or narcissistic.  I’m merely curious enough (possibly naive enough to) to post the question on a public thread

[shinRaiden 0]

Quote[/b] ]

The existing OFP/ARMA 3rd Party texture, and PBO tools etc <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>--> do the same function as <--</span> the tools BIS are planning on releasing.

Your underlying premise is flawed, stop making a riot when your assumptions do not reflect how the tools and more importantly the workflow process works. Further attempts to bastardize the generation two system by insisting on generation one rules will ruin the way it is intended to work.

-end-

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Quote[/b] ]

The existing OFP/ARMA 3rd Party texture, and PBO  tools etc do the same function as the tools BIS are planning on releasing.

Your underlying premise is flawed, stop making a riot when your assumptions do not reflect how the tools and more importantly the workflow process works. Further attempts to bastardize the generation two system by insisting on generation one rules will ruin the way it is intended to work.

-end-

I’m not trying "bastardize the generation two system" what <span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>--> I am actually suggesting that the community’s priority need isn’t for more texture tools until we can do something meaningful with them.<--</span>

I’m sure that they will offer “new and exciting†features but until the time we can actually create or edit ArmA models I really don’t see the need for another texture tool when there are others currently out that that seem to work well inside arma.

As for the Workflow, im sure as a BIA/VBS insider you'll know more about BIS priorities that the rest of us.  But we're not privy to that sort of inside information so if you care to enlighten us we'd appreciate it.

[abs 2]

Man, the stress level in this thread is high. Just relax people. Yeah, it doesn't make sense to have a binarize tool before we can actually add selections and whatnot to the models.

That's just the way it is though. Why get upset over it? Why all the bickering? Relax, kids.

Abs