Ask a moderator about the forum and the rules

[baddo 0]

Calling someone a criminal in public can get you into court here in Finland. In court you would then have to explain how much truth there is in your words. If court finds out that your words were not true, usual punishment seen here is a public apology and fines. Even if your words were true, you could still get punished for your words.

[shinRaiden 0]

WL's are meant for dealing with accidents like people posting drunk and so on, and are not intended or functional for flagrant abuses. That is what PR's or ban's are for. Here is a brief recap of privilege controls :

* WL's : behavior reminders about accidental or non-malicious actions.

* PR's : cooldowns for non-habitual or incidental malicious behavior

* Ban's : termination of privileges for flagrant abuse

* Netblock : protection against network attacks on company resources

Forums Rule #2 should actually be #1 in absolute severity, as Wolle just said

Quote[/b] ]"Donating" him PRs seems not to work as he basically laughs about them.

This is not a disagreement on his part with moderation decisions, this is flagrantly mocking them. That is subversive behavior, and the only excuse for it's presence on these forums is that Mod's were offline and not able to blackhole the thread.

Quote[/b] ]Surely his constantly negative ranting and BI bashing sucks and is boring, but as long as he doesn't violates the rules

is saying that that his behavior is not flamebaiting nor a violation of Rule #1. That single misjudgment alone on the part of the moderators has done more to damage the community than any other. There has to my knowledge been no explanation to the community as to the justification by the moderators of why the community should be subjected to constant vitriolic abuse by this individual. The fact that you have such a large spontaneous outrage from all corners of the community over the condoning of this individual's behavior needs to weigh heavily in the moderators evaluations.

We the community are not asking that he be crucified as an example to others. We're saying that I&C has demonstrated a consistent belligerent and destructive pattern of behavior on these forums, has been single-handedly responsible for widespread discord and malcontent, has been a contagious cause of widespread and flagrant mocking of forum rules 1 and 2, frequent abuse of rules 5, 7, 8, and 9, has consistently ignored or attacked moderators efforts to maintain civility on these forums, is consistently in violation of the registration acceptable use policy

Quote[/b] ]

... to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, ... hateful, harassing, ... threatening, ...

and should have his access privileges revoked forthright.

<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>The number of community members willing to have their account privileges suspended due to deliberate violations of rule 17 in publicly complaining about the absence of action in this case clearly indicates a serious and immediate crisis in community management.</span></span>

[karantan 0]

You can be assured that I use the RTM link quite frequently, whenever I see something foul, but reports have to be followed by actions and not just a glance on the reported post and some warning words.

I know what you mean here; I was called for a "pea brain" (not reported) and for a "BIS's officially hired forum troll monkey" (reported) from a same person, and nothing has happened, I was ignored for a second time (and they're saying this is not their practice [sic!]).

I still think Balschoiw you should take this to PMs, but true, it can happened that you'll be 'send off' with the explanation that this "was a childish and immature joke as far as I can tell." as it was explained to me when I reported "you should blow karantan to show you're really sorry" insult (firstly my report were ignored and when I responded on that insult I got that WL I have, but nothing happened to the person which insulted me), and when you get mad and then complain about such a decision(s) you get an answer that you "are blowing this way out of proportions and I see now that you are a person one cannot reason with. ", so I do understand you that you've taken this way, maybe they'll listen to you, I know that I would be dissmissed by a short route if I would take such a way of complaining here.

Personally if I were called for a criminal here on this forum I wouldn't even blink with my eye, I'm used (in my eyes) to much worse insults here as showed above (and not sanctioned).

[froggyluv 2133]

Personally if I were called for a criminal here on this forum I wouldn't even blink with my eye,

The point is people going out of their way to ridicule, belittle and derail every thread into "BIS Sucks! Fanbois!!!!". Why discuss anything in this forum if everything devolves to this.

I wasn't even engaged in a discussion with I&C but he made a conscience effort to go out of his way and name people he feels share this "criminal mindset". I guarentee he'd think twice about this where we to me face to face, but on the internet he abuses this advantage and feels brave.

It seems you like to stick up for him and that's your perogative but like my pappy always says "choose your friends wisely".

[karantan 0]

It seems you like to stick up for him and that's your perogative but like my pappy always says "choose your friends wisely".

Now from where that idea camed from froggyluv, get serious, you're kicking in the mist big time here, I'm just saying that PESONALLY I wouldn't react so eruptively as Balschoiw did as I don't see this insult to be so much ,,, don't know ,,, insulting as he does. As I said, I'm (more) used to it.

[Maddmatt 1]

I&C has spammed, trolled, flamed and flame-baited a lot on these forums. The topic about the 1.08 patch is an obvious example. Surely for every flame-bait, flame and bunch of spam posts he should get at least 1 WL? Considering how often he has done this, he should have been permantly banned by now. At the very least he should have his WL bumped up to 4 so that he gets banned next time.

Seems the mods need some help, maybe a couple more mods should be recruited? There are a few members who I think could do the job well.

I also noticed that some mods are not here much. If they are too busy maybe someone else can take their place?

I don't mean this as an insult to the moderators (just in case you take it that way), it is just my observations.

[JdB 151]

Seems the mods need some help, maybe a couple more mods should be recruited? There are a few members who I think could do the job well.

I also noticed that some mods are not here much. If they are too busy maybe someone else can take their place?

I personally don't think the number of active moderators is the problem (whenever I visit the forum, there is always at least one moderator online), but the way they react, and need to learn to react to situations demanding their attention. Like was said a couple of pages back, and to me by PM, the newer moderators need some time to adjust, and learn the finer art of walking a rather thin line (I have always felt that moderating is like walking on the edge of a razorblade).

I don't know exactly how long it has been since Shadow took over as head forum moderator, and a bunch of new moderators were installed, but I do think it has been long enough for at least some improvement to have presented itself amongst all of the new moderators (some have improved).

Nitpicking seems to have gone up while obvious lack or respect for the community, moderators and BIS seems to be largely ignored.

[kronzky 5]

Please, everybody...

Don't mistake the lack of official announcements for a lack of action. It's just that a lot of that action is going on "behind the scenes"

We have constant discussions among the moderators about our "problem clients". There are PMs exchanged with those people, and there are bans handed out on a regular basis.

These actions might sometimes be announced in a relevant thread, but at other times only the person involved might get the notice.

When handing out penalties we try to give the "offenders" the benefit of a doubt, and hope that they will turn around after a while and behave maturely. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.

In the case of I&C (and some other people), if they absolutely do not want to cooperate, there are getting banned (I&C is gone for 6 months). But these measures are always the last resort...

So, again. Just because there is no announcement about specific actions, doesn't mean there is no action.

[dm 9]

Please, everybody...

Don't mistake the lack of official announcements for a lack of action. It's just that a lot of that action is going on "behind the scenes"

We have constant discussions among the moderators about our "problem clients". There are PMs exchanged with those people, and there are bans handed out on a regular basis.

These actions might sometimes be announced in a relevant thread, but at other times only the person involved might get the notice.

I think thats half the problem - the moderators need to be more transparent in their actions. Banning people on the sly, whilst removing said person, is very clandestine, and doesnt instill confidence in the moderators with the community.

When handing out penalties we try to give the "offenders" the benefit of a doubt, and hope that they will turn around after a while and behave maturely. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.

And thats exactly whats wrong with the moderators now - they're too soft. Rules are rules, if you break them you suffer the consequences. By taking this softly-softly approach, you're allowing the forum members to take more and more liberties - give them an inch, and they'll take a mile, as the saying goes.

In the case of I&C (and some other people), if they absolutely do not want to cooperate, there are getting banned (I&C is gone for 6 months). But these measures are always the last resort...

Wow... 6 months? I know people who have been an active part of the community since day one who have recieved permanent bans for much less, yet these new trolls can constantly derail threads to their own twisted agenda, spreading their hate and negativity across the entire forum, relentlessly slamming both the community AND the games' creators, and they get 6 months? I'm sorry, but thats fucking outrageous.

[W0lle 1048]

As for I&C, one said 48h PR is not enough and it should be more. Now it's 6 months and there are still complaints.

Come one people we're at the BI forums in the 21st century and not at a burning of witches in the medieval times or at a middle eastern bazar.

Let's see what happens when the time is up, he still can be banned next year. If he ever returns that is.

For now I suggest we drop the discussions and demands about him, ok?

@Shinraiden:

After reading your reply twice I now can say: Point taken and I agree with you at most parts.

@DeadMeatXM2:

You say we mods are too soft now, the next one says we're acting too hard. We can't serve anyone even though we're trying our best.

I personally trying to find a way in the middle, which isn't easy at all as like I said above there's always someone complaining.

I avoid announcing PRs in the public when I think the person(s) affected should know but not the rest of the 46038 members.

This way it might look like we're ignoring reported issues but I can assure everyone that I read every reported issue even if it was reported while I was away, just to be up2date what happened in my absence.

If we lock topics then there are complaints like "the f***ing moderators close every 2nd topic", "pure censorship" etc. Comments like "if only Placebo would be back" are made while the same people was yelling 2 years back because Placebo closed topics faster then you can blink.

If we're going after every rule violation and set PRs and WLs then we have an uprising because "the new mods playing god and even ban old-timers". Now we're trying to take it a bit more easy with the punishments and warn people in private (Placebo did that too as I had the "pleasure" once) now someone comes and says the moderators are too soft.

It's impossible to serve anyone, and whatever approach we take in moderating the forums there is always one complaining about it.

While it's a good idea to get feedback from you, the forum members, I think we can discuss this until the end of days without reaching a consensus.

After all we moddies are humans, not robots. Each of us has it's own imagination on how to deal with a certain situation. One prefers to warn people in public, while the other prefers the public place. One sets a WL, while the next thinks just a PR will do while the next just sends a warning PM.

As for bringing more transpareny in our actions, maybe a sticky topic either here or in the General area could be made where all punishments and actions are announced. But this needs a lot of internal discussion I think and means extra work for us too.

[AgentJonathan 0]

I wish this topic closed, as I am "done with it...".

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=63562

Sure, but as we seem to be saying a lot here lately, next time drop us a PM.  

gotcha, sir...

PS: All I can do is laugh about my custom title!

PS2: What does WL, and PR stand for?

THX

[karantan 0]

@W0lle: In generally I agree with you, and it's sad to see how biased some can be and how they can 'turn' and 'twist' and 'adept' the rules to their liking in attempt to on a rough and sometimes unfair way eliminate the 'oposition'. As I explained to DeadMeatXM2 via PM I'm not familiar with I&C's history (I don't visit ArmA section too often because I've temporarily shelved the game but mostly because I don't like what (in general) I see there and I don't like the current athmosphere there, and after the recent expirience I had there I'll visit it even less), but as I'm informed I&C voluntarily took/choose 6 months of absence from this forum, which also says something about him; that maybe he's not such a 'monster' how some like to picture and describe him, and this just because he's not on 'their side of the bank'. There's also a lot of trolls, flamers, not to talk about the spammers on the 'other side of the bank', but no one seems to care about them e.g. it's all fine. I know that after this I will be (again) marked as I&C's friend, his right hand and similar, but I really don't care about it anymore.

As I said I agree with the mayority of your post, so there's not much to add, maybe just this; also the credibility of the moderators is very important, and in this case it's mostly gained by/because of fairness and the consistancy, and from this address some of the mods here have lost all the credibility in my eyes. But as you said, you cannot please everyone.

The sticky topic about the mod's actions is not a bad idea, but also the alternative can be to inform the 'reporter' of the offense with a simple PM like "Your report about this and that issue has been noted and a proper messures/steps against the offender has been taken", or "Your report has been noted, but we didn't find a valid ground in it (*the explanation why not*) to take further steps in this direction", and many misunderstandings in this direction will/can be avoided.

[Balschoiw 0]

Thx for the heads up mod-team, while I think a permanent ban would have been the more appropriate approach keeping in mind what a history this being has.

Case closed. Let´s see where it´s heading in 6 months.

[shinRaiden 0]

Thank you all for the clarification. As this was a cumulative action, of course it doesn't make sense to mention a PR in an arbitrary thread of the poster's.

I agree that a "Gallow's row" thread would not be productive for the community either. I have not seen any other example of that anywhere, and being forced to implement that would be to admit 'defeat' to the zombie hordes.

What I think might be better is what's commonly used on other boards, and that is to rewrite their custom title with "Banned". I would take it one step further and add the date in GMT as well. The community here is small enough and with the global timezones results in what should be limited to a few minute or maybe brief hours flareup instead running riot for potentially days until sun-up wherever the next moderator is. That way, if there's a particularly outrageous post that 'demands' rebuttal, we can see first if action has already been taken.

Additionally, in my opinion the moderators have been fairly good about announcing direct action in threads, given the recent circumstances and tempers it's understandable why people would be upset over one or two isolated cases of locks or other actions without also explanations attached.

@Wolle : Thanks for reading my posts more than once. They generally work better that way.

@all : Now that that problem has been locked away, now is not the time to move on to the other items on our cranky lists. Let's stick to gaming now, and appropriate content dev'ing.

@mods/all : When I referred to the widespread outrage, I did not mean in anyway that moderators should submit to mob rule. Rather, I wanted to illustrate a significant difference in opinion regarding compliance, and to illustrate the discontent increasing within the community.

[abs 2]

...

I admire your eloquence.

That's it. I've got nothing else to add.

Abs

[Major Fubar 0]

I'd just like to point something out here: the mods DO discuss our moderation decisions, generally in some depth. We have a forum where we discuss and record moderation decisions...

But at the end of the day, you are dealing with individuals. We do our best to enforce the forum rules unilaterally and consistently, but it is unavoidable that sometimes mod A would handle something differently than mod B.

It is generally better to err on the side of caution, IMHO, especially when it somes to permanently banning members.

Sometimes people think our judgements are not harsh enough, while others think we are too harsh. We have the RTM function there so the members can report things to us for attention, but just because something is reported does not guarantee it will be handled in the exact way YOU think it should be.

We are always open to discussion of our decisions, but we ask you to remember that we are just people like you, who do our bit to make these boards a better place for the community. We are volunteers, but we ask that you have some faith in our ability and intentions. We never set out to screw anyone over, nor to go too lenient on perceived pests.

Bottom line: the mod team will continue to make the final decisions on these forums, but we hope you'll work "with" us instead of "against" us to make these boards an informative and enjoyable place for all.

Thanks.

[shadow 6]

I agree that a "Gallow's row" thread would not be productive for the community either. I have not seen any other example of that anywhere, and being forced to implement that would be to admit 'defeat' to the zombie hordes.

I also think its a very bad idea to hang people out to dry for breaking some rules.

Quote[/b] ]What I think might be better is what's commonly used on other boards, and that is to rewrite their custom title with "Banned".

Every person who is banned has 5 WLs. Is that not enough?

[shinRaiden 0]

My mistake, I was under the impression that the two weren't tied together, and that a ban was actually = WL #6, not #5.

[shadow 6]

My mistake, I was under the impression that the two weren't tied together, and that a ban was actually = WL #6, not #5.

#4 is the last chance before a ban.

[Sennacherib 0]

i don't know if the people here like these kind of discussions that but that becomes really boring. this is no more a forum but a kindergarten.

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

My mistake, I was under the impression that the two weren't tied together, and that a ban was actually = WL #6, not #5.

#4 is the last chance before a ban.

But one could get banned with less than four as well? Elaborate please.

[shadow 6]

But one could get banned with less than four as well? Elaborate please.

Yes, you can accumulate all 5 boxes in one go depending on the severity of the issue.

[Rhodite 3]

i don't know if the people here like these kind of discussions that but that becomes really boring. this is no more a forum but a kindergarten.

Agreed, and closed.

[karantan 0]

i don't know if the people here like these kind of discussions that but that becomes really boring.

Totally agree. And it's more and more of these in the ArmA section.

Quote[/b] ]this is no more a forum but a kindergarten.

Again couldn't agree more, and the persons like The-Architect are making it such. And of course yoohoo for the mods giving him a 48h of NOTHING. By now he has maded so many such and similar transgressions on this site that he should be (at least) on four 'boxes! For instance he is the person which flaimbaited me twice ("karantan you knob", "you should blow karantan to show you're really sorry") with no apparent reason; he just jumped into the thread/discussion and insulted me. And what's happened to him? NOTHING. It seems that more rude you're here the more you get protected (from the mods). Sad in the worst meaning of the word.

[sickboy 13]

Altough I've done it myself, I must admit that this thread is starting to become quite a big "The mods this" "The mods that" etc. etc.

I am uncertain if that was the purpose of this whole thread, and I'm wondering how this relates to the Rule about not discussing Moderator choices in the public etc.