Helicopters in AA

[Journeyman 0]

Here's my movie:

http://www.uploading.com/files....mv.html

I included some oldschool music.

Nothing wrong with choppers in my opinion. I even could've done much better then that. That was my second go. The first time I did much better but I accidently crashed when flying back to base... So I had to start over.

Here’s my movie of the Apache in FSX doing similar manoeuvres from a similar cockpit viewpoint:

FSX Apache Attack Runs  .. (Right click and Save target as)

This is just for comparison again and shows the twitchiness of the ArmA flight model as opposed to the more fluid movements of FSX.  In FSX I cannot get the Apache to suddenly twitch up or down, left or right while hovering as in BlackAlpha’s video and the overall feel is of flying something heavy at all times! The movement is in line with the way mass values are modelled and there is always inertia applied to every movement.

The slight choppyness of the movie is just my middling machine trying to keep up with spec hungry FSX!

When flying fast tail rotor effect is diminished but can always force the chopper to point slightly left or right whilst maintaining original forward direction.  

[pwablo 0]

IMO half the fun that was had in the OFP model, was the ablity to fly low and fast, hug the terrain, and zip in and out of valleys, to evade detection and pop up where the enemy least expect it.

The current model just does not offer the same degree of flexibility for this style of flying. And thats a real shame.

So, re saying you want to go back to the old "ground following" thingy?

Good lord no, the "ground following" thingy was horrid. Id just like to see more 1) sensitivity in cyclic pitch, 2) authority on the collective, 3) a rudder that can be used at speed.

The maximum bank angle is a bit low, but I can live with that. The rest of the model is superb, and much better than FP's.

Quote[/b] ]Now comon guys i went into ArmA for the first time today and went straight into the editor and flew a helicopter and i even recorded it. Its not hard. I didn't even crash until the end of the video when i went into a hill lol.. ITS EASY!

Thats the problem Matt. Its too easy, too soft. All the control inputs that make it exciting have been wrapped in cotton wool.

[craigsa 0]

IMHO they have totally messed up the flying part of the game. Just got into the chopper and cannot figure out what the hell is going on. I am too used to the old way :(

[Mr_Tea 0]

If this flightmodel is easy, how can it be that the AI is flying that bad?

The "AI pilots" in OFP\Res where alot better.

[craigsa 0]

Flightmodel easy? Maybe if you are an expert at BF2. This is not anything like OFP was and i think they have made a mess of the flying. I hope they change it back.

[BlackAlpha 10]

Here's my movie:

http://www.uploading.com/files....mv.html

I included some oldschool music.

Nothing wrong with choppers in my opinion. I even could've done much better then that. That was my second go. The first time I did much better but I accidently crashed when flying back to base... So I had to start over.

Here’s my movie of the Apache in FSX doing similar manoeuvres from a similar cockpit viewpoint:

FSX Apache Attack Runs  .. (Right click and Save target as)

This is just for comparison again and shows the twitchiness of the ArmA flight model as opposed to the more fluid movements of FSX.  In FSX I cannot get the Apache to suddenly twitch up or down, left or right while hovering as in BlackAlpha’s video and the overall feel is of flying something heavy at all times! The movement is in line with the way mass values are modelled and there is always inertia applied to every movement.

The slight choppyness of the movie is just my middling machine trying to keep up with spec hungry FSX!

When flying fast tail rotor effect is diminished but can always force the chopper to point slightly left or right whilst maintaining original forward direction.  

From your video I can see that the movement is much smoother. How fast were you going? Is there something that shows the speed? What are the red numbers? I guess speed, heading, altitude?

Flying randomly trough the air is one thing. Trying to stay alive while shooting enemies is something totally different. So what I would like to see is you trying to fly low 5 - 15 meter above the ground. Doesn't matter how fast, just try to make it work.

And another thing I would like to see is a strafing run on a small specific spot, maybe a building or something. So basically, pretend that you are firing rockets at a target. Which means that you must keep aiming at the target for like 2 seconds.

While hovering slowly, try to change direction. And also try to land. So hover first, then land.

Once you do that we can really compare the 2 games.

Wish we had an AH. They are so much cooler then Cobras.

[pwablo 0]

If this flightmodel is easy, how can it be that the AI is flying that bad?

The "AI pilots" in OFP\Res where alot better.

If you think of the way points in the editor that the AI would fly, they often intersect at obscure angles, so i'm assuming that the AI would also use a similar method to determine their vector after a given command.

I think that because the model has constraints on the control, i.e. larger turning circles, reduced banking angles, no rudder at speed etc., the AI often overfly the intersections of any calculated vector or cannot align to it in the first pass, so they have to repeat this several times. Same may apply, when trying to get the AI to hit a static target. This gives the impression that the AI just cannot "get it together". As was mentioned several times by other posters, the new model requires the pilot to think ahead, anticipate control inputs and act on them before an "event" (e.g. collective delay). It does not look like the AI are very good at this either.

I'm pretty sure that if the model was given a bit more range of control, the AI would do a far better job at flying it more efficiently.

Edit - I forgot to mention previously, I use a Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold USB Joystick, with 10 buttons, and 4 configurable analogue axis, and 8 point POV control.

Cheers

[dan9of9 0]

the choppers are far too over sensative,its totally diferent to ofp.

i hate it

and if i lower the sensativity of the mouse,the infantry gets changed.

independant sensativity pls

its awful

one minute left on the mouse = turn

next thing left on the mouse = tilt

suddenly,the chopper nose dives,Q to go up does nothing,

it spins after its been tilting,and boom.into a tree.

in ofp i could drive choppers at low alt,thru tree openings and between buildings,

NOT anymore

[mattxr 9]

ARMA Is hard to control helicopters with a mouse. But if you get a Joystick its SOOO EASY!! fr example my video..

edit: i tried with a mouse and i found tht i couldn't turn as good as i wasnted and crashed most of the time.

[Mobious 0]

The only question I have about helicopter and the harrier is.. Why doesnt the tail rotar and the rudder on the jet work when you get over 100 (kph?). Seriously on helis the tail rotar does nothing at "High Speed" it should be able to turn and point the nose of the heli no matter what speed you are going. It's not like air compression is effecting it..

This is my only real problem with the flight model. The other stuff I can ajust to..

[craigsa 0]

I tried with the joystick but i still think the old way was better. Dont fix something that is not broken.

[GaX 0]

Now comon guys i went into ArmA for the first time today and went straight into the editor and flew a helicopter and i even recorded it. Its not hard. I didn't even crash until the end of the video when i went into a hill lol.. ITS EASY!

Matt you say it's easy cause you just flyed arounds...

Anyway, that's not a matter of easy or not easy...

Here we talk (overall) about a major bug of the rudder over 50-60Mph

Show us some video of AH1 Single player mission with FFAR and manual fire

I think you will not say easy anymore

[BlackScorpion 0]

Dunno about the Harrier but most choppers fly more like planes at high speeds anyways, due to aerodynamic reasons. But if you can't basically turn at all, well then I guess... dunno, ask Jinef, he's a chopper pilot methinks.

I really want to test out to flight model... most of the time I have troubles flying choppers in FS2004 (they just start swinging around when I try to use rudder), can handle it pretty well in FSX demo and OFP is almost childsplay for me.

Really looking forward to use my joystick in ArmA.

[colligpip 0]

has the patch changed the heli model at all??

[craigsa 0]

FS2004 is a breeze compared to AA, all of a sudden the damn chopper just flips over and crashes for me, with and without a joystick. Jeez i am so disappointed in this.

[Journeyman 0]

So what I would like to see is you trying to fly low 5 - 15 meter above the ground. Doesn't matter how fast, just try to make it work.

And another thing I would like to see is a strafing run on a small specific spot, maybe a building or something. So basically, pretend that you are firing rockets at a target. Which means that you must keep aiming at the target for like 2 seconds.

While hovering slowly, try to change direction. And also try to land. So hover first, then land.

Once you do that we can really compare the 2 games.

OK here’s a movie of me flying the Apache in FSX doing a low level attack first on an imaginary convoy on a forest road and then coming in off the sea to attack some fuel storage tanks at an airbase! (Actually Hong Kong int. airport! ). Remember though that FSX is not a combat flight simulator and the rocket effects are only effects as non of the scenery in FSX is destructible. This is why I seem to be missing the storage tanks when in fact the rockets are going straight through them! Finally I land on the tarmac not my best landing but the only one I recorded!

FSX Apache Low Level Flying & Attack  .. (Right click and Save target as)

The red numbers on the HUD are from left to right: airspeed – heading – altitude as you rightly guessed! I had to re enable the autogen for this in order to show the 3d trees so my frame rates took a plunge on my ageing system! Low level flying though is quite challenging but great fun in this sim as it is very authentic and thus very satisfying to accomplish! It’s not difficult to get your targets either because the chopper responds smoothly to input, as you would expect it too unlike in ArmA it seems!    

[craigsa 0]

Unfortunately i am now capped Would love to see it but in this country bandwidth is very expensive

[BlackAlpha 10]

Your video clearly shows that the movement is much smoother and the rudder works as it should when you were going over 100.

The overal performance of the chopper was kinda bad but I'll just blame that on your flying skills.

If you got time to make another movie I would like to see you flying under treetop level (3 - 10 meters) at around 30 - 50 speed units. Coming to a stop (hovering), turning, going forward again finally making some more turns. You got to stay under treetop level at all times. That would be impressive.

[Dudester 0]

I know this is a chopper thread but the plane is even more of a joke to fly then the chopper. When you pull back on the stick to go faster in the turn, all the plane does is flip over 80% of the time, its horrible and i don't know what BIS was thinking when they were testing the controls for flight. I have practiced for 8 hours non stop in the chopper and planes, and they suck big time. You never feel completely in control of either of them. The chopper has big exaggerated movments when you turn or nose down, don't even bother trying to use outside view as its even worse to try to control. Ok thats my rant, now BIS fix this bullcrap please in your next patch as it ruins the game for me, and by the looks of this thread alot of other players to. I want to be able to land the chopper where i want without the aid of auto hover, but trying to do this with these flight controls is a laugh.

[maxqubit 1]

Sorry to barge in and not having read all 23 pages for the following:

Did anyone tried the 360 wired controller with ArmA (e.g. for flying)?

[Journeyman 0]

If you got time to make another movie I would like to see you flying under treetop level (3 - 10 meters) at around 30 - 50 speed units. Coming to a stop (hovering), turning, going forward again finally making some more turns. You got to stay under treetop level at all times. That would be impressive.

Flying under the trees eh! Very demanding not just for me as the pilot but also for my poor old PC! FSX is extremely demanding on specs so this flight was quite an effort for my old girl! (3.2ghz P4 - 1GB 400DDR RAM - 6800GS AGP card)

I didn’t crash it though and only touched her down once!

FSX Apache Ground Level Flying  .. (Right click and Save target as)

I hope this video shows more of the flight behaviour of the Apache in FSX as compared to ArmA! Plenty of low speed rudder turns and lots of input from the collective needed to keep her off the dirt!  

C'mon BIS you can do this!  

[Dudester 0]

I have now spent more hours then i would wish trying to fly that chopper and plane and i just about give in. Chopper feels like your in a wind tunnel its pathetic. How on this earth are you suppose to take out a target like infantry thats in a house or even just a target. Don't get me wrong here, i can keep it up in the air, but like i said its like been in a wind tunnel. When it comes to landing or trying to target anything it just jumps about all over the place. I am not even going to think how long it will take to actually land a jet. Comon BIS i don't belive a real pilot could handle these, its a game its meant to be fun, there is no learning curve with that chopper or plane, you just randomly get battered by what feels like a hurricane. Plz Fix Fix Fix Fix because this is no fun at all. Also i want to use my thrust on my joystick to control the rotorbaldes. I know i can set it for this but then it counter acts the thrust on the joystick used as fast forward...Anyone know where to get a joystick that has 2 thrust controllers.

[pwablo 0]

Aside from being able to fly the choppers reasonably well now with a bit of practice considering the radically new feel of them, has anyone managed to get a FFAR to actually impact or collapse a bridge yet?

So far as I can tell, FFAR's don't even detect bridges as being solid objects, they just pass straight through them, and impact on the surrounding terrain. Chopper seems to stop quite well though, when they smack into the side of them...

Cheers

[twisted 127]

i'm confused.

is the problem that the heli flight model is not realistic enough or not arcade enough? or is it a problem with the controls not being 'right'?

to me it seems the ArmA feels much more real than OFP (where I'd be able to turn a heli going 200 around in mid air and bring it to zero speed ridculously fast). and i am so glad to be rid of that damn auto follow the ground.

of course it's not perfect, but i think its a matter of tweaking the flight control and respnsiveness rather than making it more arcade. when i fly slower in ArmA i get a greater sense of control, and when i go fast (over 70) the speed makes helicopter not be able to turn on a penny which makes sense.

It's easy to fly in ArmA but not easy to fly well. At the moment i don't know if that's my lack of experience or a problem with the controls. the issues i find is the throttle seems to lag a bit making it hard to find the sweet hover spot and sometimes when trying to turn at high speeds the heli jack-knifes and crashes (although this might be real in which case great cause i don't want an easy ride).

[bangtail 0]

i'm confused.

is the problem that the heli flight model is not realistic enough or not arcade enough? or is it a problem with the controls not being 'right'?

to me it seems the ArmA feels much more real than OFP (where I'd be able to turn a heli going 200 around in mid air and bring it to zero speed ridculously fast). and i am so glad to be rid of that damn auto follow the ground.

of course it's not perfect, but i think its a matter of tweaking the flight control and respnsiveness rather than making it more arcade. when i fly slower in ArmA i get a greater sense of control, and when i go fast (over 70) the speed makes helicopter not be able to turn on a penny which makes sense.

It's easy to fly in ArmA but not easy to fly well. At the moment i don't know if that's my lack of experience or a problem with the controls. the issues i find is the throttle seems to lag a bit making it hard to find the sweet hover spot and sometimes when trying to turn at high speeds the heli jack-knifes and crashes (although this might be real in which case great cause i don't want an easy ride).

Its neither to "arcadey" or too "realistic". In a word, it's bad. I actually went back to OFP and flew around a bit and even though it may not be 100% realistic, it is 100x better than ArmA. Arma's helo model just doesn't feel right. One of the best descriptions I have heard was "They feel like they are on a bungie cord".

These people who keep saying they are getting used to it are deluding themselves. There is no learning curve, it is not the nature of the model. No amount of practice will make the flight model more effective. It just needs to be fixed is all, and I am sure it will be

E