Helicopters in AA

[Fresh- 6]

I've downloaded and installed Arma (german version) and played it all day yesterday.

For starters, thank you BIS. It's amazing!! The overall experience is so much better than OFP.

I would recommend people not listen to some of the negative garbage being posted and experience the game for yourselves.

Yes, it needs adjustments - but it's still a hoot to play. My new favorite game!

Now, in terms of the helicopter flight dynamics, I certainly agree there needs to be some tweaking in the flight model. This being said, I am able to fly the helos w/ sidewinder joystick, they're just akward and don't feel right. The biggest issue I have is the pitch being too sensitive and the collective not responding properly.

The helicopter ends up flying in jerky way which shouldn't be the case. I hope that BIS takes the time to review this aspect of the flight model.

THANKS!!

[Left-Skid-Low 0]

As far as I know none of the in game choppers have an honest-to-goodness rudder in real life, so loosing yaw authority at high speeds is correct(ish).

Don't take this the wrong way but as far as you know, what do you know about real world tail rotor effectiveness in a Hughes 500 or UH-60? Yes, the tail rotor is less and less effective with more the more forward airspeed you have, but there is still plenty of pedal authority to get the nose of the aircraft pointed to where you need it to. For example, when I'm flying at night and need to check the windsock when overflying an airport, I just flick on the landing light and use the pedals to point the light at the windsock.

Edit: I also need to make a further critique regarding the fore and aft cyclic movements, as said already the helicopters are pitching in about 5 degree increments, I think there might not even be a dead zone as I said earlier, possibly just a gap between the first increment. The roll inputs seem OK, still something a little too twitchy though. We need to be able to make small adjustments down to even half a degree on all the axis for this work.

[GaX 0]

Question for BIS :

When we could have a patch for helicopters?

Thanks

[Dudester 0]

Question for BIS :

When we could have a patch for helicopters?

Thanks

Yes please answer this thread. Its 26 pages long and no answer from BIS that there even looking at it. Why lock threads at the drop of a hat and yet not answer a thread that is 26 pages long. An answer would bring an end to the thread.

[Hudson 0]

Yes please answer this thread. Its 26 pages long and no answer from BIS that there even looking at it. Why lock threads at the drop of a hat and yet not answer a thread that is 26 pages long. An answer would bring an end to to the thread.

I agree, I remember years ago when there were problems of this magnitude in OFP Maruk or Suma would show up and cool everyones jets before the second page got started. Now someone makes a legitimate complaint and the threads start lockin. I also would like to get an official word as vehicle control is my biggest beef right now. I dont want to see anymore community members saying "Im sure they will fix this and that..." or "They fixed it in OFP just wait". I would really like to see a reply from one of the programmers and not a forum moderator. We have paid good money for this game, alot more in some cases then others. I really think we desereve more than community speculation and moderators locking up forum posts.

[frederf 0]

Quote[/b] ]Don't take this the wrong way but as far as you know, what do you know about real world tail rotor effectiveness in a Hughes 500 or UH-60? Yes, the tail rotor is less and less effective with more the more forward airspeed you have, but there is still plenty of pedal authority to get the nose of the aircraft pointed to where you need it to. For example, when I'm flying at night and need to check the windsock when overflying an airport, I just flick on the landing light and use the pedals to point the light at the windsock.

I don't know the magnitudes of the tail rotor yaw authority in say a UH-60 by experience, but I am a private pilot and a physicist. I added the (ish) because you should have less authority for yaw at higher speed than lower speed due to weathervaning of the fuselage and how wind passing over the disk of the tailrotor messing with it's aerodynamics (I assume this last part).

Anyway, I don't know about your ArmA but in mine I do get some rudder authority at all speeds, less at faster speeds. Maybe it's not enough but it is there. I can wiggle the nose to at least 150kmph.

As far as BIS's response; nowadays it seems that a community representative seems to be required for any game developer. Placebo doesn't seem properly equipped for this task. He seems more marketing and crowd control and doesn't have the insider info and contacts that would be best used to handle complainers such as ourselves.

[Fresh- 6]

Please don't forget that BIS is still working on the demo, the english version and many other things, as you can imagine. It's a miracle some of us even have the game at this time. While it's important to voice our observations, I don't think we should expect them to drop everything.

All good things come with time. You can be sure they're well aware of this thread and will fix it in time.

Cheers!

[craigsa 0]

Agreed, i think we need some clarification from BIS.

[colligpip 0]

Yes I am shure that BIS will notice the length of this thread and help us out with handling our choppers.

[whisper 0]

A quote from Placebo just near this thread :

Quote[/b] ]There is simply no time to run around forum threads acknowledging this, that or the other, if bugs are reported with clear reproduction steps into the wiki (just like I said some time ago in the bug thread) then they will be noticed way more likely than random rantings in a forum thread, if the general consensus is that the flight model is so flawed it's tantamount to a bug then it should be reported as such.

FYI the buglist is here :

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Armed_Assault:_Bugs_List

[BlackAlpha 10]

@ BlackAlpha are you using a joystick?  Considering how twitchy the ArmA flight model is you seem to be controlling it quite well, maybe it just takes practice! I still don’t like the twitchy movements though, it should be much more fluid than that.

Can you make a video using the AH or Cobra and this time use the outside/chase view starting on the ground then increase collective (throttle) slowly until you are hovering about 20 feet up (do not use auto hover). Then make a hard left on the rudder until you are facing the other way 180 degrees. Then hard right on the rudder back again. Get back into a steady hover again about 20 feet up, then without moving the collective (throttle) bank left on the stick to make her roll to the left. I want to see what happens with ArmA’s flight model here. It should slip sideways and head for the ground. Bring it back up and do the same to the right. Steady it again and without adjusting the collective move the stick forwards, again it should tip the chopper forwards and make it move forwards and head for the dirt until you lift up on the collective (throttle). Pull back on the stick to bring it back into a steady hover and gently put it back down on the ground!

Watch my video below and just copy those moves! Don’t forget – NO auto hover! I want to see just how much control you have and also how the chopper responds to the various inputs explained above. If it is anything remotely realistic it should behave something like in my video!  I don’t think it will though!   …. Boy this will be fun!  .... Watch these moves in FSX below:

FSX Apache Hover Control & Response  .. (Right click and Save target as)

EDIT: @ Dudester someone posted above that you can adjust the control assignments in ArmA to configure 'twist' to rudder only I think!  

Also no need to sign up for anything to view BlackAlpha's videos, just find the DL link on the right!  

Yeah, controls are twitchy if you try to move fast. It sometimes feels like the game is forcing you to go another way because it shouldn't be possible to do whatever you were trying to do. That's how the twitchy thing feels like.

Downloading your video now...

PS: Oh yeah! I love my new internet connection that I've installed 5 minutes ago! Downloading the movie at 1 MB/s (I can go faster though).

[Antichrist 0]

Honestly, it is way better than I originally thought. I was doing one of the attack chopper side-missions in the campaign and almost managed to get a hand of it in the end. It only works from 1st person view and only if you move your mouse very very slow and carefully. Even then you can totally spin out of control for no reason. Manual fire is a must, because AI just doesn't give a shit about commands for some reason. That's with a Cobra though, I have not really tried other choppers yet and Harriers are still dreadful.

[Dallas 9]

A quote from Placebo just near this thread :

Quote[/b] ]There is simply no time to run around forum threads acknowledging this, that or the other, if bugs are reported with clear reproduction steps into the wiki (just like I said some time ago in the bug thread) then they will be noticed way more likely than random rantings in a forum thread, if the general consensus is that the flight model is so flawed it's tantamount to a bug then it should be reported as such.

FYI the buglist is here :

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Armed_Assault:_Bugs_List

Great quote, can I use it as a signature?

[4 IN 1 0]

be on good side, does this mean that they are already getting busy on this?

[BlackAlpha 10]

@ BlackAlpha are you using a joystick?  Considering how twitchy the ArmA flight model is you seem to be controlling it quite well, maybe it just takes practice! I still don’t like the twitchy movements though, it should be much more fluid than that.

Can you make a video using the AH or Cobra and this time use the outside/chase view starting on the ground then increase collective (throttle) slowly until you are hovering about 20 feet up (do not use auto hover). Then make a hard left on the rudder until you are facing the other way 180 degrees. Then hard right on the rudder back again. Get back into a steady hover again about 20 feet up, then without moving the collective (throttle) bank left on the stick to make her roll to the left. I want to see what happens with ArmA’s flight model here. It should slip sideways and head for the ground. Bring it back up and do the same to the right. Steady it again and without adjusting the collective move the stick forwards, again it should tip the chopper forwards and make it move forwards and head for the dirt until you lift up on the collective (throttle). Pull back on the stick to bring it back into a steady hover and gently put it back down on the ground!

Watch my video below and just copy those moves! Don’t forget – NO auto hover! I want to see just how much control you have and also how the chopper responds to the various inputs explained above. If it is anything remotely realistic it should behave something like in my video!  I don’t think it will though!   …. Boy this will be fun!  .... Watch these moves in FSX below:

FSX Apache Hover Control & Response  .. (Right click and Save target as)

EDIT: @ Dudester someone posted above that you can adjust the control assignments in ArmA to configure 'twist' to rudder only I think!  

Also no need to sign up for anything to view BlackAlpha's videos, just find the DL link on the right!  

Here's the movie:

http://www.uploading.com/files/DIMW0PEJ/Chopper_Physics_Test.wmv.html

What I noticed is that when you go at a certain speed in a certain direction, the chopper wants to center the view into that direction and it doesn't matter in which direction you are looking at. The faster you go, the harder it will get to look in a different direction. The thing is that it should NOT do that. This is why the controls seem so twitchy.

So let's say that you just made a turn to the left. Your screen will be looking to the left but the chopper will try to center the view back to the right side. I guess that's why the rudder isn't working on high speeds.

Just watch what happends when I bank. When I reach a certain speed, the chopper suddenly makes a hard turn. Almost a perfect 90 degrees turn. And it's not going out of control because then it would've made a much larger turn then just 90 degrees. And I'm not touching the controls when it makes that 90 degrees turn.

This happends pretty much all the time you are flying. Just watch my movies. Sometimes when I make a turn, the controls get all twichy and my screen wants to go in the opposite direction. If you somehow are able to use the rudder to turn your view for example to the left while the chopper keeps going to the right, it will still try to force your view towards the direction that the chopper is flying.

Maybe this is a fail safe so people don't crash? Like the automatic banking when you go fast and try to turn?

By the way I use the mouse to fly.

[Balschoiw 0]

Is that some kind of "autocentre" like we have with ground vehicles in Arma aswell ?

[BlackAlpha 10]

I'm just guessing but it might be since all vehicles basically behave the same.

[Balschoiw 0]

It sounds somewhat logical and it would explain the weird behaviour aswell.

-> Get rid of it pls

[gm2kfp 0]

I don't see how anyone can think of the current Arma helicopter flight model as realistic. To see how bad it is switch to 3rd person view so you can see better and try using the rudder while in a hover (X and C keys). It is like the helicopter is on the end of a long stick and the pivot point is 100-200 meters behind the chopper. The pivot point should be the main rotor. Something is really screwed up the way it is presently. I've given up on choppers until there is a fix.

[craigsa 0]

I agree 100%. Until they fix this chopper issue I will have to wait.

[Hudson 0]

I don't see how anyone can think of the current Arma helicopter flight model as realistic. To see how bad it is switch to 3rd person view so you can see better and try using the rudder while in a hover (X and C keys). It is like the helicopter is on the end of a long stick and the pivot point is 100-200 meters behind the chopper. The pivot point should be the main rotor. Something is really screwed up the way it is presently. I've given up on choppers until there is a fix.

Yes, I noticed this. It seems almost like the axis is centered on the camera and not the vehicle like it should be.

[Fresh- 6]

Quote[/b] ]What I noticed is that when you go at a certain speed in a certain direction, the chopper wants to center the view into that direction and it doesn't matter in which direction you are looking at. The faster you go, the harder it will get to look in a different direction. The thing is that it should NOT do that. This is why the controls seem so twitchy.

BlackAlpha, what you're describing has a solution, I think. For starters, a joystick w/ twist grip (rudder), throttle (collective) and hat switch (view) will greatly enhance your flying experience. Trying to fly one of these with a mouse is really not the best way.

When I get in the chopper, the first thing I do is hit the 'num*' key, or 'FREE LOOK'. This allows me to use the joystick's hat to look around without having the view automatically jump back to center when I release the hat. This is essential for proper flying as you have much better control of your view and can basically keep your eyes on the target as you circle around. When the "free look' isn't enabled, I find the auto-centering ruins my flying. But I don't think this applies to the mouse.

On another thought, I wish BIS would make it possible to adjust the 'FOV' (field of view) while sitting in the chopper. While in the cockpit, it would be nice to be able to zoom out in order to get a wider view of the cockpit and windows. This would help in flying and more so in landing.

Whatever happens, let's hope they patch this baby!

[Journeyman 0]

I don't see how anyone can think of the current Arma helicopter flight model as realistic.  To see how bad it is switch to 3rd person view so you can see better and try using the rudder while in a hover (X and C keys).  It is like the helicopter is on the end of a long stick and the pivot point is 100-200 meters behind the chopper.  The pivot point should be the main rotor.  Something is really screwed up the way it is presently.  I've given up on choppers until there is a fix.

Yes, I noticed this. It seems almost like the axis is centered on the camera and not the vehicle like it should be.

That could in part be an optical illusion, I have studied BlackAlpha's physics video and the camera does swing back around the chopper quite a bit if you compare your view of the ground just before he turns. It looks a bit like that in my physics video too but the camera is nearer the chopper on that one.

Thanks for making that video BlackAlpha! It has been interesting comparing yours and mine (ArmA vs. FSX) in terms of handling and physics and I think this was a good way to do it.

I can see lots of differences; lack of inertia is obvious as ArmA's model turns quicker with less effect of mass. I can see your problem with banking too! You loose control after a short sideslip, you also don’t sink as much as you should (I am assuming you applied no extra lift). The whole chopper moves in a twitchy jerky manner when you try to control it! Again it's as if it has very little weight. Also when you pitch forwards you should sink much quicker if you don't apply any more lift. The funny thing is though that when you initially lifted up it was incredibly perfect - straight up without any cyclic corrections required to stop it slipping backwards/sideways! I can't do that in FSX! This would require the rotors to be 100% level while on the ground which is rarely the case!

I'll watch it again later in case there is something I've missed! Although the basic heli physics is in place, there is quite a bit to be fixed it seems!

[BlackAlpha 10]

@ Dec. 06 2006' date='08:34)']

Quote[/b] ]What I noticed is that when you go at a certain speed in a certain direction, the chopper wants to center the view into that direction and it doesn't matter in which direction you are looking at. The faster you go, the harder it will get to look in a different direction. The thing is that it should NOT do that. This is why the controls seem so twitchy.

BlackAlpha, what you're describing has a solution, I think. For starters, a joystick w/ twist grip (rudder), throttle (collective) and hat switch (view) will greatly enhance your flying experience. Trying to fly one of these with a mouse is really not the best way.

When I get in the chopper, the first thing I do is hit the 'num*' key, or 'FREE LOOK'. This allows me to use the joystick's hat to look around without having the view automatically jump back to center when I release the hat. This is essential for proper flying as you have much better control of your view and can basically keep your eyes on the target as you circle around.  When the "free look' isn't enabled, I find the auto-centering ruins my flying. But I don't think this applies to the mouse.

On another thought, I wish BIS would make it possible to adjust the 'FOV' (field of view) while sitting in the chopper. While in the cockpit, it would be nice to be able to zoom out in order to get a wider view of the cockpit and windows. This would help in flying and more so in landing.

Whatever happens, let's hope they patch this baby!

I tried using a joystick but the controls are pretty much the same with the mouse. The only thing that I'm missing is the twist to use the rudder more properly. But that's not really that important because you can still turn left and right and use X and C for rudder when going at higher speeds.

As for changing the view. I don't really need it. I just press space if needed and look around. But this has nothing to do with the flight model

So I don't see how a joystick would help. I'm going to try to learn to play with the joystick though, to see if anything is different.

[BlackAlpha 10]

You loose control after a short sideslip

The thing is that I don't lose control. The chopper just turns automatically to a specific point and then just goes straight ahead.

Oops double post.