European Politics Thread.

[Rovka 14]

Correct Kavoven!! But it's loss of face we're dealing with here..

Yet revolution won't change a thing, for the minute it's over: Different faces, same old shit!

[Prydain 1]

Financing welfare? Why the fuck would anyone want to do that? Try to explain how you do that in intricate detail and you'll be knifed on the first step: bond yield.

Oh dear. Welfare isn't a nation, it is a social program, why would I be talking about financing in that way?

Here is another way of saying it: You can fund welfare in the United States.

As for the rest of your post, keep thinking that your looking down on other people because it is quite funny when thick people think they have all the answers and/or believe they are actually contributing in a high-brow manner.

I admit that I haven't been following the whole topic but could someone please explain me why it would be that bad to throw Greece out of the EU or at least the Euro?

The problem is that both the European project and the Euro itself wouldn't be doing themselves any favours by throwing Greece to the wolves. Europe will look like it doesn't protect its own during hard times and the Euro will look shaky/malformed to creditors and the markets. There are those that would like more economic integration to come sooner too, they can use this situation to press for that integration. Edited June 21, 2011 by Prydain

[txalin 2]

If people in Spain want someone to blame, they need only look at their reflection. The EU didn't instate a government, the rest of Europe didn't force them to be in a vulnerable position economically. I personally don't think integration has been mapped properly but thats what you get in a democracy/supranational democracy.

Wait, people in spain are blaiming our goverments, and also the euro agreements, which basically will made to the families to lost a lot of economic power, but the most important thing of this protests is against our (stupid) politicians.

Edited June 21, 2011 by txalin

[vilas 477]

@kavoven- its our policians who want to join to Eurozone , not wise part of society

politicans force too much EU to countries

EU is not "too much like USSR" federating ,

i agree that free trade, free borders can be eventually good

but not situation that we want "unite in everything"

look at Sloviakian people, are they happy because of joining EUrozone ?

as i spoke to some of them last summer - not at all

we, as europeans should force some things on our politicians - who not take care neither on what they promise BEFORE election nor on signals of protest

so have you ever thought about issue : do nation want Euro currency or politicians and some big business want it and rest (sometime majority "must agree" on will of minority, even look at death penalty, 78% of Poles want it back, politicians say NO because we are in EU, we have to do many things against majority will, also many things are forced on us AFTER joining which we had no idea about "it was hidden like a secret" etc. )

on many things politicians refuse to make referendum and ask people will

cause on many things nation would vote NO to politicians yes (p.s. my family voted against joining EU)

our (Polish) politicians said there will be NO referendum about joining Eurozone, cause they know that majority would NOT want to have prices in shops to be rounded from Polish Zloty to Euro cause smallest things would rise price (reminds me trips to Slovakia, i am every year in mountains , i remember eating there dinner for 8 PLN and i remember eating the same pizza in the same restaurant for 4 Euro-16 PLN )

last time they wanted fee for ticket to castle and photo-ticket for 10 EU, which is not small money for Pole and we had to "pass over" their restriction about "foto fee" cause for 10 EU i have 2 dinners (in Poland there is no foto-fee cause law allows taking photos free)

joining eurozone is equal inflation that makes poor people povert (every tiniest thing, from yogurt, bread, milk, potatoes will raise )

so maybe some rebuild of EU would be neccesary, cause now i only see fat ass politicians who want "earn on EU parliament level" and earning 10-20 times more than average person here and they only think "whom to lick ass to have Brussels's wage" and every director in every ministry spends money on flights to Brussels, Paris etc. to "talk about problems"

Edited June 21, 2011 by vilas

[txalin 2]

joining eurozone is equal inflation that makes poor people povert (every tiniest thing, from yogurt, bread, milk, potatoes will raise )

On Spain cost of life increase by four when joining to the euro, obviously salaries were not increased.... :mad:

[NoRailgunner 0]

Well Europe was and is still divided into somekind of princedoms and kingdoms. If they all like to be a global player they have to unite and get stronger. Alone on their own they will suffer losses or total bankruptcy.

Both China and USA are not interested and don't want to have another strong competitor in any market. They're more or less happy that people don't solve their own national problems with corruption and crime but go on blaming EU for everything... People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

@kavoven search about the changes Greek has gone through the last year. Guess everywhere people would be upset if after all these new cuts and reforms there are others who say something very ignorant. Maybe its time to analyse the reasons, improvise and don't make the same wrong decisions again? But its always easier to find someone to blame instead of getting it right without wasting too much time on chasing hot air...

[kavoven 4]

@kavoven search about the changes Greek has gone through the last year. Guess everywhere people would be upset if after all these new cuts and reforms there are others who say something very ignorant. Maybe its time to analyse the reasons, improvise and don't make the same wrong decisions again? But its always easier to find someone to blame instead of getting it right without wasting too much time on chasing hot air...

So whos fault is it? Thats my question. I just don't get why they blame Germany (and I AM offended by that) for their own false decisions.

[ProfTournesol 956]

So whos fault is it? Thats my question. I just don't get why they blame Germany (and I AM offended by that) for their own false decisions.

The problem lies in accepting Greece in the Euro zone at the beginning. A country where not paying taxes is as a national sport shouldn't be accepted in a common monetary zone, unless waiting for the others to pay their budget losses.

[vilas 477]

remember that many of our politicians do not allow referendums

they want to decide against us

we should vote important things ourselves

not policiticians decide with banksters over our heads oposite to our will

[txalin 2]

To understand the "spanish revolution" take a look to this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRPTiJi4CUk

[Baff1 0]

Well Europe was and is still divided into somekind of princedoms and kingdoms. If they all like to be a global player they have to unite and get stronger. Alone on their own they will suffer losses or total bankruptcy.

Both China and USA are not interested and don't want to have another strong competitor in any market. They're more or less happy that people don't solve their own national problems with corruption and crime but go on blaming EU for everything... People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

...

That's it really in, a nutshell.

The single most reason the EU needs to fail and fast.

A load of malcontented people just see it as a way of giving themselves global power and a route to being powerful enough to start a competition with China and U.S.

I look at the EU and all I see is WW3.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Baff1

[vilas 477]

i have no idea how it looks ouside EU, but for Poland it looks following:

- politician BEFORE election say " i will do A, i will not do B, C must be done"

- AFTER he is elected he changes his mind (corruption ? bribes ?) and suddenly "we can't do A, we must do B, C is sensless"

thats why talking about paying for our governments is sensless, our governments are liars

i have idea how it looks in Greece or Spain

probably similar

they promise something to nation, nation will it (voting) and later all is upside down

lack of referendums (for example about Eurozone) and maybe lack of weapons in citizens' hands make people angry (cause only guns have government)

some time ago i understood that US philosophy that gun keeps democracy is right, cause till today we cannot put our politicians to order

they promise ONE , they do opposite things and we must pay for their lies (for example even joining EU made some things that we were told "it won't happen after joining")

Railgunner told good words - crisis is caused by US banksters, we should not pay for US banksters , they want here problems cause our problems mean their better sales (all this crush of Warsaw Pact was bullshit, it was not about freedom, it was about sales )

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Oh dear. Welfare isn't a nation, it is a social program, why would I be talking about financing in that way?

Not a nation, a social program of a nation, uh, what were you trying to say again?

Here is another way of saying it: You can fund welfare in the United States.

Let me quote you again,

Here is another way of saying it: You can fund welfare in the United States.

And again,

Here is another way of saying it: You can fund welfare in the United States.

And again for posterity,

Here is another way of saying it: You can fund welfare in the United States.

You explain to us, how exactly do you intend to do it. Do you know what exponential growth on a finite world/system is? Do you realise all of the major wars were brought about due to a sovereign default/bond market collapse being the main cause? Apparently, you don't. Knowledgeable people are getting fed up with these logical fallacies, that most of the sheeple perpetrate upon society - you don't even realise how your own bullshit delusions will bring about a new world war.

I can explain to you how to bring down a sovereign nation with a welfare program and/or ZIRP loans for the general populace, but I can not do the math on the sustainability of a 100k pension 4 lyfe of some dipshit, who hasn't done anything but manual labour in his life.

As for the rest of your post, keep thinking that your looking down on other people because it is quite funny when thick people think they have all the answers and/or believe they are actually contributing in a high-brow manner.

I'm looking down on useless leechshits, who contribute ZERO point ZERO to society.

This is your future.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Iroquois Pliskin,

You and I know what the bond market and ZIRP is, but 90 percent of forum members don't have any earthly idea what you are talking about. I applaud you for trying to build awareness, but I don't think most on this forum have even taken a macro/microeconomic course to understand the basics of what you are talking about.

In the end, it's much easier for them to blame the "wealthy" for the economic crisis much like their grandparents blamed the Jews in the 30s.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I admit that I haven't been following the whole topic but could someone please explain me why it would be that bad to throw Greece out of the EU or at least the Euro?

:confused:

It would be logical at this point for Greece to leave the European Union and re-introduce its own currency, but the problem is the countless CDS - credit defautl swaps - a form of insurance against the default, in this case on Greek gov't bonds. Incidentally, the cost of 'insuring' against such an event has gone up a lot in the last month. Why should we care...? Well, a lot of French, British, US and some German banks wrote CDS on pretty much anything in the pre-2008 era, and a repeated collapse akin to 2008 would be multiplied by the fact that those are countries defaulting, not mere companies.

Bank(-er)s run the show in Greece, so effectively Greek people have no say in this anymore. "Ahoy, captin."

In the end, it's much easier for them to blame the "wealthy" for the economic crisis much like their grandparents blamed the Jews in the 30s.

That's what I'm here for, trying to save desperate souls, hungry for the truth, so they can avoid that C-130 that will depart for Iran-Syria ground OP sometime in the future.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin

[mrcash2009 0]

Knowledgeable people are getting fed up with these logical fallacies, that most of the sheeple perpetrate upon society

but I can not do the math on the sustainability of a 100k pension 4 lyfe of some dipshit, who hasn't done anything but manual labour in his life

I'm looking down on useless leechshits, who contribute ZERO point ZERO to society.

Hans was only really saying that it might go over some peoples heads with certain information and people who dont know such things will blame "the wealthy" and things that can only be seen to blame and you reply with this:

That's what I'm here for, trying to save desperate souls, hungry for the truth, so they can avoid that C-130 that will depart for Iran-Syria ground OP sometime in the future.

I know I should just let it go as it can seem like trolling which Im trying hard not to do, but ... Im astonished at someone who has this "knowledge" that seems to sound and quote and act very much like the elitist view of the very thing they are trying to give "truth" about.

All I can say is your either very excited about your information source and want to save everyone and get so frustrated people dont see it like you that you look down at them. You do realise people who are un informed dont need someone talking in those terms, as it reads that this is your view of those people even if you dont mean it that way.

You have spoken in other areas about depopulation of people who are not being responsible, also stating your point about anything going down and the millions left that suffer should be almost put out of their misery (so to speak), you quote alot of NWO depopulation information, you then state your views on those who do and dont contribute and so on.

I know enough people who are very informed in all areas of this subjects you touch on, and I dont see them ever taking such a self imposed, self important stance such as yourself. I also allot of informed knowledgeable people who keep of the "grid" and dont "contribute" as you put it, but contributing can also be deemed "feeding the system" it has many views on the one meaning. You dont have a right to put yourself in a box away from "those others" that are lesser, or dont contribute as YOU see it, you are also not exempt you are part of this system also, information or not.

You want to really inform people, maybe you should chill on the sheeple side of things, and give up on the self appointed saviour aspects, and just inform when needed? People can make their own mind up, you post the information its up for people to read that's the best way. If your batting for a "truth" team, currently your becoming the exact reason people turn away and shut down on it, unless of course in some way that's your aim. You have even tried that "Obviously you dont know" replies with me, and in theory I understand alot of the information about what's going on so effectively im on similar team (although I hate that description its the best I can think of right now).

Im sorry to come in here and say this, maybe a PM might have been best, but seriously mate, take a look at the attitudes your posting have tied to them (ref lesser groups and such), your not going to help anyone as much as you think you might with comments like that. Im all for information that isn't the mainstream aspects and show things for how they truly are in areas, but not when its packaged with an almost elitist attitude which in some ways undermines the information that will be switched off from as a result.

Ive had my moments on other subjects (Just ask Mr Wiggum :) ), and I am interested in your posts and other posts on here, all a good read, I understand the infiltration of groups, the manipulation, the lies that are unreal at the current time. Although anyone who may not know what I have tried to find out and look at are not beneath me in anyway shape or form (whether or not you have that view it reads like it if your trying to understand), your posts smack of that "vibe" is what i'm saying.

Edited June 22, 2011 by mrcash2009

[txalin 2]

- politician BEFORE election say " i will do A, i will not do B, C must be done"

- AFTER he is elected he changes his mind (corruption ? bribes ?) and suddenly "we can't do A, we must do B, C is sensless"

This. And usually, B means increase taxes, or lower the salaries, or something like that. And after B is done, usually our politicians increase his salary about 40% <-- This have been done by at least 8 politicians on the last week. And now think on this: Most of the spanish politicians haven't gone to the university....

[Baff1 0]

i have no idea how it looks ouside EU, but for Poland it looks following:

- politician BEFORE election say " i will do A, i will not do B, C must be done"

- AFTER he is elected he changes his mind (corruption ? bribes ?) and suddenly "we can't do A, we must do B, C is sensless"

It looks the same in every country, in every type of political system. Now and right the way back to the dawn of history.

Nothing new here. Business as usual.

[vilas 477]

thats why i said , we as society should not allow to pay for "their" decisions and US banksters crisis, which is not "our" crisis (The Inside Job movie)

we voted for A, not for B, we must not allow to pay the price for B, cause we voted for A

and txalin- yes, rising wage twice is first thing that most of policitians do when they get in power (their cousins suddenly get "good" job etc) but usual people have no idea, cause "they not work inside" to see what i see everyday

we should have 2 things in EU:

- referendums , more referendums (when WE decide, not politicians who said A and later decide B)

- maybe guns as americans, they (those "elites") only respect power, they not respect shout of protests , they use water cannons on shouting people cause they feel powerful

if Greek, Spanish people or even UK students who protested had rifles - their gov. would act according to Nation will, not their fellow banksters who have milions every year (and they are not patriots, they not feel to belong to Nation, they belong to "business which has no nation, where i lay my hat is home, where i pay tax is banana island with 1% tax" )

Edited June 22, 2011 by vilas

[Baff1 0]

The U.S. banking crisis most certainly was my crisis.

My life savings are kept in a bank and my pension involves a lot of bank shares.

Nor am I alone in this.

I am alot poorer for that crisis, (around 50%) even before we take the extra tax bill into account.

Me, I don't take it seriously. It doesn't matter what I vote for. I don't look to the political system to solve my problems or address my concerns in any way. LMAO more the otherway round.

I don't see the point in letting them frustrate me. As far as possible I just keep myself to myself and get on with my life.

As much power as they have over me, I can usually sneak in enough freedom to keep me smiling about life.

if I took politics seriously i would be very angry about it. But I don't. I take it as light entertainment. Something I watch on TV or read about in the newspaper to pass the time.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Baff1

[vilas 477]

but policitians decide about:

- what your tax money go for: is it another warship or 10 hospitals , is it your university or another golden palace for politicians (or Queen in your case), is it wage for politician or better car for police,

- what will be penal codex, will guy who robbed you will go to jail, or will you go to jail if you punch him in defense,

- will you be sent on war to die for their profits or you will sit with girl listening to music cause no wars are on,

- will you have right to work for your new car or you will be forbidden to milk your cow more and plant more tomatoes (or even if you will have job, cause someone may sell your company to Chinese, they will fire 50% of workers, and rest will have to work twice harder for lower money than now)

- will you be safe to buy product in shop (control of quality, control of clean, control of safety, control of electromagnetic fields ) or you will buy food which will poison you and TV which will make your mobile not functioning (EMC)

- even politician decide will you have easy travel on city (Metro aka Subway) or money will be wasted on their fun (politicians)

etc.

it is not you who can now decide about:

- penal codex and who is judge and what he can do to you or guy who threatened you by knife,

- what army and police do (shoot to tax payers or shoot to bandits)

- what city hall builds (subway, hospital or useless museum of art and cucumber paintings or football stadion which will only make hooligans to come here and throw bottle into your window after match )

etc.

Edited June 22, 2011 by vilas

[Baff1 0]

But when I punch someone, I don't get caught.

When I can't go to state university, I can still go to private university.

They can build all the palaces they like with my money, but they can't come down the same nightclubs and pubs as me.

The palaces are theirs, but the streets are mine.

And I can always build a little palace of my own, as long as it doesn't get big enough for them to notice.

I don't care what my "rights" are.

If I don't like the food I can produce my own.

Go to a private hospital. Hire mercenaries.

As hard as it trys and it trys pretty hard. My government doesn't own me. This might be the worlds most totalitarian state, but even here I can have a little freedom if I try.

And I am a stake holder in this society. When people go to war to save profitx, some of the profits they are saving belong to me. Some of them belong to all the other people I love. Everybody in my society has a share in those profits, we call them "public companies" and millions of us have shares in them. It's not just the politicians, the bankers and Queen who take their cut. It's all the little people too.

You don't have to make me go to war for that. I'll volunteer if I'm needed.

And if you forbid me to milk my cow or plant tomatoes, then I will milk my cow and plant my tomatoes somewhere you can't see.

I agree with what your saying, but I'm not willing to participate in it any further than I absolutely have to.

I can usually find enough freedom to live a rewarding and happy life.

Since we both agree it's a load of old bollocks, I prefer not to take it very seriously.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Baff1

[vilas 477]

we as tax payers should control where our money go

cause this crisis and other things are effects of "too much power without control"

Edited June 22, 2011 by vilas

[Baff1 0]

It should also never rain during a cricket match.

I like to keep my expectations realistic so that I don't waste much of my life feeling disappointed.

[vilas 477]

but protests in Spain and other countries are because those people want to control what their country makes from their taxes (if they see for example big rise of wages of members of parliament, big rise wasted in A-stan dust and they are told "you no longer have hospital" than people want to control how politicans spend their money, cause for one F16 with all rockets probably 2 hospitals can be build and equipped and function whole year )

on rain you have no control

on money spend from budget you can , cause human decide, not weather

Edited June 22, 2011 by vilas