European Politics Thread.

[Spokesperson 0]

Why should it only work for one class? Capitalism allows all the classes to work with each other to obtain what value judgements they might have.

That's how states work. Every state is a supporting tool used by the ruling class. Either the workers constitute the ruling class, or the parasites do. In liberal democracies the police is principally just a protector of the interests of the ruling capitalist class. That is not in the interests of the workers.

Risks are not creating value, risks are just redistributing it. Only labor can produce it. In a capitalist economy the workers are paid less than the values of what they produce with their labor. In effect they produce a surplus value, unpaid "overtime" labor, that goes to profits among other things. The capitalists just have to own (with police protection) to earn millions from their thousands of wage slaves.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

This happened because of blind sided politicians. They forget the troubles that could be caused in order to accommodate. People might want the EU project to be completed but the lack of caution in order to get to that point has damaged us all, even if we don't use the Euro.

Politicians, politicians, politicians. BULLSHIT.

Are you that spineless to relay YOUR responsibility over to some talking heads in these times? Oh, but mine is a rhetorical question, for I know the answer to the status of the masses - clueless, docile, expendable.

Doesn't matter what you want, there is no work towards your want, and thus the 'people' get the governance they deserve. I could not care less if Greece or Spain become a third world s***-hole in this decade, they clearly have enjoyed the zero interest rate policies around the globe. What, you say you want to take that iPhone 4 back to the store? You say you want to restore private enterprise and responsibility, as compared to the current situation of bloated bureaucracy and unsustainable 'socialismO' schemes.

Throwing molotov's cocktails in the streets of their capital cities is the best they can do, it seems.

Throwing them out won't work though and come 2020 they would be joining once again.

By 2020 there will be no Ireland, no Greece. National sovereignty is the thing of the past, and if people are living the delusion of an independent country being able to rise up and prosper, alone, with their own currency, their own bullshit traditions, their superstitions and religions, then such people will, too, be gone by 2020.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Hans Ludwig 0]

That's how states work. Every state is a supporting tool used by the ruling class. Either the workers constitute the ruling class, or the parasites do. In liberal democracies the police is principally just a protector of the interests of the ruling capitalist class. That is not in the interests of the workers.

Risks are not creating value, risks are just redistributing it. Only labor can produce it. In a capitalist economy the workers are paid less than the values of what they produce with their labor. In effect they produce a surplus value, unpaid "overtime" labor, that goes to profits among other things. The capitalists just have to own (with police protection) to earn millions from their thousands of wage slaves.

Come back to me when you start paying a mortgage and the property taxes that go along with it.

"If you are not a socialist at 20 you have no heart, and if you are still a socialist at 40 you have no brain." F.A. Hayek

Edited May 26, 2011 by Hans Ludwig

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Come back to me when you start paying a mortgage and the property taxes that go alone with it.

"If you are not a socialist at 20 you have no heart, and if you are still a socialist at 40 you have no brain" F.A. Hayek

He won't be having a private home anytime soon. Socialists don't dream high enough.

[Prydain 1]

Politicians, politicians, politicians. BULLSHIT.

Are you that spineless to relay YOUR responsibility over to some talking heads in these times? Oh, but mine is a rhetorical question, for I know the answer to the status of the masses - clueless, docile, expendable.

Oh, here comes Iroquois Pliskin, the only individual to notice that the throng is docile and is going to point out how cynical he is to differentiate himself from the masses. Please... I've heard this before, it sounds like the animal noises the crowd makes in applause as they listen to George Carlin telling them something they already know.

And to defend myself from being a culprit rather than a mincer: I am not the only voter, I did not blame every politician, just those in the clique of the unelectable that had an ideological bias (that I share, may I add) that, in their case, swiped caution from their minds.

National sovereignty is the thing of the past...

No, it is a thing of the present. I agree that smaller nation states (like Greece, Ireland and Portugal) aren't going to be able to exist without a bigger pooling of sovereignty in the near future but in Europe thats fine. We have a common identity that can be reverted to for realitys sake and it won't be that hard to sell that to the fools who think nationalism has ever had a better basis than their ancestors' belief in being loyal to a king or queen.

He won't be having a private home anytime soon. Socialists don't dream high enough.

They don't dream because they are awake, unlike their 100% capitalist brothers and sisters who don't understand that you can't consume if your sick, uneducated, jobless or are being crushed by an unregulated system. Capitalism wouldn't work without socialism either supporting it or coming in to stabilise the show when everyone is eating dogs and cats and the only people with a house are those who are armed enough or (ironically) are numerous enough. Whats wrong with living in a society where the citizens provide for one another when they are young, ill, have lost their job or are being threatened in any way?

I'm not a pure socialist or capitalist, by description, but when you start attacking either side, your just closed minded or part of the Fox news-fed belt of retardation that sees or hears "socialism" and sees "communism".

Edited May 26, 2011 by Prydain

[vilas 477]

liberalism lead to slavery, because of it's philosophy "minimize costs"

and it is against human

regarding tradition, sovereignty i don't even want to comment cause my blood boils when someone deny meaning of sovereignty and tradition, culture of nation etc.

homogenization, monopolization by few big concerns/firms , metro-sexuality is not for me (even looking from touristic point of view)

but all liberal prayers forget about some simple things (some i prescribed in examples of hours of work 2 or sites ago)

free education is thanx to socialism

if there is no free education, than people cannot easily avancing and get better job, and being consumers buy better products (from poor to middle class)

if there was no free education than kid from poor family would not be engineer, would not buy good PC, good camera DSLR, good car

he would be cleaning kitchen and buying only cheapest food and cheapest clothes

consumer and consumption is pushing economy

and only when lots of people have money (when profits are redistributed, when education allows poor man from poverty family to be MSc , learning hard poor kid can be in future man which buy Canon EOS 7D and L lenses , although i came from very poor family , it is all thanx to socialistic free education, othewise i would have to work in shoe shop, i would have no PC, you would have no addons, Canon would not sell 4 DSLR and 7 lenses more , because i raised in family when sometimes mother had to borrow money to pay for electricity - because of liberals in 90s which i will never forget how they deprived my Nation and made unemployment here )

till XX century we had no socialism and how earth looked like ?

poor living in poverty were under guns of rich class

they shoot to workers when they not wanted to work

there was slavery, there were "royal families, nobels" etc.

people had almost zero chance to avance to better position

thanx to socialism and free education we have paid holiday, we can be ill for some weeks and still have job, we can finish university go to work and buy more products which we couldn't buy if we were poor

in socialism there were even free flats to start family

american kids have to enlist, die on war to get money for education

i had no need to enlist, die, risk life, i just had this education cause we had no so much liberals

Edited May 26, 2011 by vilas

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Nothing is free, Vilas.

I'm not going to lie, you are the only person on any forum I have ever visited that makes me rage. Your use of the English language and your inability to properly format your text leaves me speechless.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Hans Ludwig

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Alright! Let's roll.

And to defend myself from being a culprit rather than a mincer: I am not the only voter, I did not blame every politician, just those in the clique of the unelectable that had an ideological bias (that I share, may I add) that, in their case, swiped caution from their minds.

Herein lies the problem, voting in the absence of choice and never-changing paradigm is CONSENT to being r**ed, molested, looked down upon et cetera.

No, it is a thing of the present. I agree that smaller nation states (like Greece, Ireland and Portugal) aren't going to be able to exist without a bigger pooling of sovereignty in the near future but in Europe thats fine.

You don't seem to understand the implications of the EU acknowledging gold as a legal tender, able to settle debts, trade imbalances, and other irregularities within the trade between nations. Where does that leave Greece, Portugal, Italy even, with its 1,100 tons of gold reserves? It leaves them in a dark room, lit by candlelight surrounded by hooded priests - the IMF, whose role will be to pillage and plunder said "nations", before they are allowed to even comprehend leaving the Union.

Their sovereignty is out of the question.

We have a common identity that can be reverted to for realitys sake and it won't be that hard to sell that to the fools who think nationalism has ever had a better basis than their ancestors' belief in being loyal to a king or queen.

I'm sure people will find reason within themselves, when it comes to us being a single species on a single planet - Terra, carved up by artificial boundaries within the globe, be it psychological, or physical in the form of barbed wire, spanning thousands of kilometres around some landmass.

National sovereignty served its purpose of controlling the unwanted migration of masses of people, now that digitised surveillance is about to go on-line in a big way, there is no need for passport control on some checkpoint - the system already knows everything there is to know about you.

That is the price civilisation pays, in order to enjoy the fruits of free trade and free movements of free-thinking people.

They don't dream because they are awake, unlike their 100% capitalist brothers and sisters who don't understand that you can't consume if your sick, uneducated, jobless or are being crushed by an unregulated system.

Everything starts with a dream, an idea, so that is not the trait of capitalism, but Human aspiration.

As for the sick, uneducated and jobless, well, shouldn't that couple have thought about having children in their uneasy financial/mental/otherwise situation?

Or did the condom break? Solution: max. two persons born per one family, regulated.

Capitalism wouldn't work without socialism either supporting it or coming in to stabilise the show when everyone is eating dogs and cats and the only people with a house are those who are armed enough or (ironically) are numerous enough.

You hit the nail on the head there, I can't stress enough how close you are to one layer of the truth, for the "New Deal" of 1933, "Hope & Change" 2008 were used by capitalists to stabilise the population, as you've said, in the time of crises: depression, war.

Whats wrong with living in a society where the citizens provide for one another when they are young, ill, have lost their job or are being threatened in any way?

Fullstop. There is nothing wrong with, let's say, a coherent health insurance system being used on a required basis in a society, akin to vehicle insurance. What is being objected to, is the welfare state, which is about to run its course into the dustbin of history, as it did following the end of the Great Depression in the previous century.

Most importantly, heed the following message:

00xStn_jXKo

An Oath:

I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

Cynicism, you say? You need to understand where this philosophy came from: from the thousands of years of repression by the Church, of ignorance of the masses following the Church, of the innumerable people burned by the Church for innovation, discovery of the processes that govern our world through the scientific method.

You know, Galileo recanted, but the Earth is moving still. And if you ever dare to impose your will on the freemen of this world, ever again, your force will be confronted by force, you will be wiped out in a nuclear fire, burning you up to ash, while fertilising the soil at the same time.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Prydain 1]

Lots of what you said in response is just rambling. It would be better if your comments about my quotes had a connection.

Talking about barbed wire, migration and surveillance is a big jump from talking about how people see nationalism. It would be as big a leap as talking about condoms breaking when quoting someone talking about a social safety net...

You where more concise when your post has an angry vibe. Maybe I should do the old internet trick of typing out a "your mum" joke.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Talking about barbed wire, migration and surveillance is a big jump from talking about how people see nationalism. It would be as big a leap as talking about condoms breaking when quoting someone talking about a social safety net...

You can't follow the thread, you don't deserve to follow the wealth you all dream of.

I ignored your ad hominem attack regarding 'Fox news' and decided to disassemble your collective consciousness, point by point. Waste of time.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Maybe some people should simply ask or find out how the real life behind the Iron Curtain was:

Ask if normal citizens discussed all of their political + cultural ideas, opinions, thougts outside their own kitchen...

Ask those who raised their voice and were observed + "reconfigured" from internal security.

Ask people from the Eastern Bloc how they felt about their economy and their living standard close to the fall of the Iron Curtain.

Most people there felt that something bigger has to change. The gap between the government and society was already too big. People in power appeared to be only concerned on their own privileges and lifestyle. They just wanted to maintain the monopoly they had on everything...

Imagine some communist or socialist hardliners and their orders to break down all opposition + demonstration with full force. Do you still like to protect this kind of ideology and oppression of its own people?

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Maybe some people should simply ask or find out how the real life behind the Iron Curtain was:

Ask if normal citizens discussed all of their political + cultural ideas, opinions, thougts outside their own kitchen...

Ask those who raised their voice and were observed + "reconfigured" from internal security.

Ask people from the Eastern Bloc how they felt about their economy and their living standard close to the fall of the Iron Curtain.

A little trivia: I'm a child of the New World Order, born in the USSR with the English language being my third-learned language. And let me tell you, collectivism does not work in a single country, you either encompass the whole world, or you will stagnate and fall.

On the topic of a Global 'collectivism' of shared ideals, goals - it need to happen not by force, but by reason, and I'm more confident than not, that people will see reason in such a society, provided facts are reasonably outlined. Not slogans, facts.

[Prydain 1]

You can't follow the thread, you don't deserve to follow the wealth you all dream of.

I ignored your ad hominem attack regarding 'Fox news' and decided to disassemble your collective consciousness, point by point. Waste of time.

No, I'm willing to listen (and was) but you just veered off for no reason. If you read what I said and wanted to contribute, why didn't you just answer or try to refute what I said?

Edited May 26, 2011 by Prydain

[Spokesperson 0]

On the topic of a Global 'collectivism' of shared ideals, goals - it need to happen not by force, but by reason, and I'm more confident than not, that people will see reason in such a society, provided facts are reasonably outlined. Not slogans, facts.

Of course, but there are always people who profit from maintaining a status quo. I.e. the ones that are privileged today, i.e. the capitalist class and their servants. These will as a final step open fire on people who want change. But as long as they have a hegemony of the means of production they will also have monopoly on the media and the ideological production in society. So, for changes to begin to occur (and to have normal people think and question things) there has to be some kind of exceptional situation like a great crisis.

And of course you never defeat an enemy to 100%. There will always be remains, and they will try to reinstate their power through a counter revolution.

Every revolution should ideally be peaceful, if possible, but it must remain armed at all times.

[DaVca 0]

thanx to socialism and free education we have paid holiday, we can be ill for some weeks and still have job, we can finish university go to work and buy more products which we couldn't buy if we were poor

in socialism there were even free flats to start family

american kids have to enlist, die on war to get money for education

i had no need to enlist, die, risk life, i just had this education cause we had no so much liberals

this over 9000 times...

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Of course, but there are always people who profit from maintaining a status quo. I.e. the ones that are privileged today, i.e. the capitalist class and their servants.

There are more powerful forces at work here, than profit. Habsburgs were also privileged and oh-so-interested in the status quo of their Vienna ball rooms, that didn't notice the coming Great War. Nor had the French monarchy back in the XVIII century.

So, for changes to begin to occur (and to have normal people think and question things) there has to be some kind of exceptional situation like a great crisis.

Exactly this. Have patience, global telecommunications are marching onward at an increasing pace, the information age will set most of Mankind free, but do forget that worker-capitalist bullshit you were taught, because the worker can be replaced by a machine to do the work - communism effectively. LOL

As for the 'revolution', there are certain things better left to its natural flow - evolution of civilisation being one of such topics, it would be unnatural, artificial, if you will, to impose, let's say, technology on a society NOT ready to accept it.

A very interesting question: Would you suppress, or promote the wireless transfer of energy (yes, not your weak WiFi; energy) back in the 1907, just before World War I?

;)

P.S.

NZ6t5JA7OBA

Edited May 26, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Spokesperson 0]

My use of profit in that context should be read as gain.

Workers. That's programmers, engineers, technicians, factory workers and others that produce things (mostly for an owner in this system). Sure, machines replace a lot of people, but most people still work rather than own.

Revolutions are always natural and democratic. At some point the old system and its relations of production get out of sync with the productive forces.

At a certain stage of development, the material productive forces of society come into conflict with the existing relations of production or – this merely expresses the same thing in legal terms – with the property relations within the framework of which they have operated hitherto. From forms of development of the productive forces these relations turn into their fetters. Then begins an era of social revolution

File sharing is such a technology that conflicts with the way the current system works. Artificial limits are imposed to stop new technology.

Socialism will eventually turn into communism thanks to new scientific advances and complete automation.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

YpuRcmPnSTM

this over 9000 times...

My sentiments exactly.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

My use of profit in that context should be read as gain.

Oh, come on, gain is good, greed is good. Profit is a great incentive to life, why would anyone innovate if they always returned to square one?

Greed is in fact required in our current world, but don't blame anyone but yourself, and the other seven billion people (7,000,000,000) - and I'm talking numbers, not abstract concepts of responsibility. Numbers that tell us the scarcity of resources, the peak of some we have already passed. You know that copper won't magically re-appear in known depleted ore deposits, whatcha gonna do, recycle those cheap electronics? Not feasible on a large scale due to, again, number of people involved, and those who are adding surplus population.

Workers. That's programmers, engineers, technicians, factory workers and others that produce things (mostly for an owner in this system). Sure, machines replace a lot of people, but most people still work rather than own.

Why can't you start owning then? Incorporate yourself, skip various taxes. Being a worker is a free choice, is it not? Oh, I see, manual work is being discussed here - it is straight from Marx & Engels, of course... manual work, manual work... Let's see:

THINKING IS NOT A MECHANICAL PROCESS, LOGIC IS NOT AN INSTINCT OF THE HUMAN NATURE.

Clear enough? If you're losing jobs to some Chinamen getting a buck a day, that says more about your 'job', than the statue quo.

Socialism will eventually turn into communism thanks to new scientific advances and complete automation.

I adore communism, I really do, there's one condition, though, to attaining bliss and utopia, of course, and that being, as I've mentioned previously - the depopulation of this planet to sustainable numbers, in the millions, probably tens of millions of people, then all these theories of universal healthcare, education would probably apply.

So, what say you, World War III in exchange for the dismantlement of the status quo - capitalism, feudalism, define the stagnation as you will, but I can assure you, it is the genuine, top-of-the-line establishment that would be taken down in a the course of the war.

We can start a conventional one in North Africa, and then move Eastward - Pakistan, Iran, China. HD television will surely imprint the horrors seen, so that people will once again shout out - Never again!

[Prydain 1]

Profit is a great incentive to life

Thats just immoral rubbish. Who goes through their life thinking that being a slave to money and the attainment of said trifle is so important? I think your mind is broken. I've worked as a volunteer at my local hospital, I've contributed first hand to charity in country like South Africa and have paid taxes into a socialist system since I was 15 and haven't once been demotivated by the lack of remuneration.

I sense a lack of empathy and optimism in much of what you have written that isnt at all helpful, like your constant sluing into a disconnected ramblings and feeling of being affronted by my none-directed Fox news quote seemed to hurt you for no reason. Plus you dodged everything I said and then said "Waste of time" as if I didn't want to listen to you when you didn't say anything in response to the things I said that you quoted.

Be less pessimistic and, for one, no, billions of people don't need to die or be killed.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Prydain

[VanhA-ICON 11]

Oh, come on, gain is good, greed is good. Profit is a great incentive to life, why would anyone innovate if they always returned to square one?

Greed is only good in small portions. It'll make you blind to your surroundings.

..Maybe you've watched "Wall Street" too many times?

The conversation in here seems to be slipping in to a class war..

[vilas 477]

Greed is only good in small portions. It'll make you blind to your surroundings.

..Maybe you've watched "Wall Street" too many times?

The conversation in here seems to be slipping in to a class war..

yes

greed lead to slavery (no need to pay for workers)

and class wars is essention of european politics

is States there seems not to be such class wars visible

EU is sometimes boiling because of such class wars

for some greed is good, for me not because it may lead to slavery

greed causes wars cause few percent want to rule and make obey 90% and so on

many things "morally bad" for us are "good" for "liberals" and so on

[Spokesperson 0]

Oh, come on, gain is good, greed is good. Profit is a great incentive to life, why would anyone innovate if they always returned to square one?

I'm not attaching moral values to terms here. I'm saying that the ruling class has its interests and the workers theirs, and that there's a conflict between them. As a member of the working class I'm interested in the interests of the working class rather than the ones of the ruling class.

Why can't you start owning then? Incorporate yourself, skip various taxes. Being a worker is a free choice, is it not? Oh, I see, manual work is being discussed here - it is straight from Marx & Engels, of course... manual work, manual work... Let's see:

Now you're getting away from reality. Sure, I could open a business and make cars but I would likely be brought out of business because of competition. To start businesses you need capital, and for that others have to be owners. We live in a class society, you can't just skip to the owning class. But sure, if ten thousands of people try, someone will eventually succeed, it's a lottery. And it doesn't matter if I turn into an owner, the same problems will still persist in society.

Work can be intellectual, like in the case of a programmer or 3d-Designer, or manual like when people make wine.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Now you're getting away from reality. Sure, I could open a business and make cars but I would likely be brought out of business because of competition. To start businesses you need capital, and for that others have to be owners. We live in a class society, you can't just skip to the owning class. But sure, if ten thousands of people try, someone will eventually succeed, it's a lottery. And it doesn't matter if I turn into an owner, the same problems will still persist in society.

Thank God I don't live in Europe. As much as I b1tch and moan about it being too damn hot or too damn dry, I could just as easily have been born in Europe.

I would love to give you Europeans some advice from us Texans, but you will just see it as me being pro USA and start to flame me. So why bother? You guys seems to be happy with always making excuses why you can't succeed in life. You complain it's the rich that is preventing you from being the next Bill Gates, when in reality it's because you guys have a hardon for taxes and legislation and regulation up the but. That's why Europe didn't create Facebook, Myspace, the Internet, Google and etc... It's not that you guys can't, but you wont as long as you have the hurdles that prevent it from happening.

7mdvYyjxoAQ

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Thats just immoral rubbish. Who goes through their life thinking that being a slave to money and the attainment of said trifle is so important? I think your mind is broken. I've worked as a volunteer at my local hospital, I've contributed first hand to charity in country like South Africa and have paid taxes into a socialist system since I was 15 and haven't once been demotivated by the lack of remuneration.

Who goes about in life without thinking of the consequences of an additional FOUR billion people looking to get a place under the Sun with dollar bills in their $y$s. You know why the dollar? Because it came to represent the tool to free oneself from labour all-together. If I have 100,000 of any currency, you owe me goods, services, doesn't matter what it is; point being the currency is so widely accepted, than nobody stops to think, otherwise the system would collapse. And what would you do if, let's say, the system of fiat collapses? What are those billions of people are going to do, accept austerity: bread & water, AFTER they've seen "Life"? I don't know whether you have traveled the world or not, but I suspect you haven't payed attention to what I've just described above.

That is where greed comes in, if you're do not posses reasonable amount of it, then you will lose your wealth, your life savings during a time of crisis, such as the one we're in right now.

But there is a solution, which involves very unpalatable things such as World Wars and the depopulation of the planet. Do show me your wisdom, how one would achieve unity, prosperity & brotherhood between so many people, who are constantly pulling in different directions, on top of that you have how many fucking billions still believing in mumbo-jumbo AKA monotheistic religions?

Wake up.

I sense a lack of empathy and optimism in much of what you have written that isnt at all helpful

Oh, I'm optimistic, I'm a reverse psychology optimist, it's very hard to acknowledge it, if you don't know where I'm coming from: soon, very soon, we'll have the most glorious day, when we will be able to shape and form, and melt the societies of the world into a more coherent, reasonable entity governed by the Rule of Law. There will be no place for delusion, or ignorance in our brave new world, no second chances, if you still cling to old beliefs.

---------- Post added at 12:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 PM ----------

To start businesses you need capital, and for that others have to be owners. We live in a class society, you can't just skip to the owning class.

Where have you *bleeping* been throughout 2001-2008? The whole premise of what we discuss today is ZIRPolicy, you didn't get to ride the wave of free money? Aww, so didn't I, but the whole process could've been seen for what it is - a Ponzi pyramid scheme.

Again, Thinking is NOT a mechanical process. Logic is NOT a derivative of EMOTION, or INSTINCT.

Who is to blame that millions of seemingly educated people couldn't spot the exponential function in the bonds' interest payments of their respective governments? Boo-hoo-hoo.

Now inflation is coming home to roost to EUR, USD and GBP even, governments will default this Summer, and you'll have your stage to throw a few molotovs.

P.S. Hans Ludwig, always thought of you being European, somewhere in the Alps mountains, sitting in your house, reading on Austrian economics. :D

Edited May 27, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin