benu 1 Posted April 12, 2004 @Benu, I guess its hard to understand exactly my perspective on this whole issue, as what is written in text can convey no sign of emotion of feeling. Im afraid I seem to have given you a wrong impression of how I really feel.[...] BUT, that doesnt take away the negatives, which even those vehemently proclaiming OdolEx as the new messiah of tools have documented quite clearly. The only thing that really concerns me though, is the attitude and psyche behind the release of the tool. With such a groundbreaking tool, wouldn't it have been at the least, courteous to seek an opinion or approval from BIS, before even mentioning it to the community? (After all, the commercial models in VBS1 are also now freely available) Might it not have been polite for the WRPTool team to approach the various producers of built from scratch models, and to at least let them have their say or voice their opinion? Would it perhaps have been more 'professional' to follow BIS example and limit the distribution of the tool in the first instance? My concern is that the tools writers were so proud of their acheivement, that they forgot basic good manners, and decided to proceed regardless of the above points. (I really hope this whole exercise wasn't to get 'revenge' on the big teams in some way, as many comment here seem to express) What can we learn from this? Is there a better way of doing things? In the interests of engendering mutual respect, it would be nice to see more communication, and less "one up manship". Do we really want to be a 'community'? Or just a bunch of kids slinging opinions like mud? TJ and i have been shouting at each other a little in private and can understand each others points better now. Mostly i can understand his concerns regarding this tool better IMHO one of the points that may be worth discussing is the one he brought up here: does the development of a tool like this give the creators any responsibility before offering it to the community? If so, which? I guess there will be many opinions and no "laws of nature" in this discussion though, and the tool is out already, so maybe the point is moot already. Klink the other thread was just getting interesting, we'd suggested using licensing, and, thats the solution.Best of both worlds, attach a license that says "by downloading this addon you hereby agree not to edit the contents without obtaining prior permission...blah blah blah" Then they can open it all, look around, see how its done, configged ect, but people need to ask for permission before editing, and if not, they are in breach of EULA and International Copyright Laws. Works for me Yeah, the other thread just got civil and i missed some good posts there. This copyright stuff is the most interesting part i think. I think there should be a discussion about copyright in general, what is covered by copyright and what can the creators of work do protect their work and what can it be protected of at all and what will be the consequences for people violating copyrights of addons/scripts. Cause laws differ from country to country (one has to stress this point, the citizens of at least one country in this world always seem to think that their laws apply to all other countries in the world too ) and as EiZei said: EULAs are void in his country and here too, it would be cool if someone with at least moderate knowledge of copyright laws could start that topic so it doesn't start off badly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jahve 0 Posted April 13, 2004 Read the thread about illegalities with p3dedit.. same thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toadlife 3 Posted April 13, 2004 IMHO one of the points that may be worth discussing is the one he brought up here: does the development of a tool like this give the creators any responsibility before offering it to the community? Manufacturers of CD-R drives aren't held responsible for the illegal copying of CD's. There are lots of products on the market that can be used to break the law - that's doesn't make the manufacturers liable, as long as their is a legitimate use for them. Look at peer to peer software. Anyone here knows that 99% of the files tranfered over p2p are heing illegally transfered, yet it is perfectly legal to make and distribute peer to peer software because there are legal uses of the software. Nothing was really 'cracked' here (no encyption was broken was it?), so I really don't see what is unethical about making and releasing this tool. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pathy 0 Posted April 13, 2004 Walker the point is few people make a soldier from scratch. I think i was correct in stating that? So why the hell are you arguing about nothing, to make yourself look knowledgable or ? Â Hell you werent even arguing about units, you were talking like id just said "no-one makes ANY model from scratch" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drill Sergeant 0 Posted April 13, 2004 Path my man I sugjest you stop trying to light all these little fires, before the mods ice you. (Pun intended.) About the orrigonal use of binaranize, I'm looking that up ATM and will see what I come up with. *Edit* The binaranize readme says "You can use this tool to optimize your Operation Flashpoint addons." And thats about it. Now please can we all shut up this stuped argueing and talk about improveing the tool? I say make a no fuss binaranize option as binaranize doesn't run on my computer? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 13, 2004 I have now hacked every model ever made and posted them all as my own after changing the name and one vertex. Not. We over this yet? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Acecombat 0 Posted April 13, 2004 I have now hacked every model ever made and posted them all as my own after changing the name and one vertex.Not. We over this yet? Fantastic i have even d/lded them all too Let WW3 begin ..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pathy 0 Posted April 13, 2004 Path my man I sugjest you stop trying to light all these littlefires, before the mods ice you. (Pun intended.) Actually im just wondering why someone is acting like i said that nobody makes their models from scratch when that is cleary not what i said...... <<<<And read: Zero warning bars Knowing my luck some mod will now come along with a dark sense of humour....... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dwarden 1124 Posted April 13, 2004 i'm forced to post one more time here ... You sure know Unreal based games, You sure aware there is also big mod community ... now ... look here : http://www.acordero.org/projects/utpt/index.htm UTPT supports just only over 25 games using Unreal engine, including UT2004 based ones ... You can view textures, meshes and everything else You can export meshes out as 3DS and Unreal 3D format but what you CAN'T see are addon makers whining at ATARI/Epic/etc forums about this util allowing theirs work will be stolen ... but many said it's genial tool and helping community ... interesant, i see no difference between ODOLEX2 and UTPT2 in fact, UTPT2 exports directly into 3DS and ODOLEX2 not ... so? I hope this small example IS ENOUGH good argument to stop this pointless discussion for good P.S. for addon makers if You still want protection, ask/suggest BIS to implement for OFP2 special type of 128+ bit encrypted addons and addon makers can get theirs key to sign that addons etc... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pathy 0 Posted April 13, 2004 The whole issue of stealing has already been dismissed over the last 5 pages...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drill Sergeant 0 Posted April 14, 2004 Well if no one is going to discuss the features we can add to this tool..................... Why is the thread here? What OFP needs is a tool which can binaranize and oppen p3d files. A tool that can pack  and unpack pbo's. Bin config files and un bin them..... Possibly even convert textures....... In one tool......... Now if that wasn't enough work/ideas to get these people  thinking about what else they can add, I'd like to know what  is. And to allot of other people..... Here's my advice.... Wana flame or argue with some one? Use PM's, not this thread, it's becomeing an eye sore. Why am I acting like I run the thread? Because it will be beter for EVERYONE as soon as we quit argueing. Yes I belive I have resurected this thread, but it's only on  page 2.   (I also made a constructive comment on some things they might like to add.)  Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BraTTy 0 Posted April 14, 2004 Quote[/b] ]What OFP needs is a tool which can binaranize and oppen p3d files. A tool that can pack and unpack pbo's. Bin config files and un bin them..... Possibly even convert textures....... In one tool......... Excellent Idea ! The fact that this Odol tool is already within an island making program is great ,why not add modelling and animation capabilities also Go all out and edit/convert sound too Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drill Sergeant 0 Posted April 14, 2004 How'd I miss the sounds?  Heh, I rember correctly I use only wav because I was always converting to the wrong sound format and or they didn't work. A total conversion  utility would be nice. Aslong as it wasn't too bulky with lots of dewdads and senceless crap.  Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benu 1 Posted April 14, 2004 P.S. for addon makers if You still want protection, ask/suggest BIS to implement for OFP2 special type of 128+ bit encrypted addons and addon makers can get theirs key to sign that addons etc... Maybe i am overlooking something but afaik encryption will not protect addons in any way, especially user-made ones. If you think otherwise please explain how you think it should work. And i don't mean which algorithm (like 1024bit AES keys), but more like which procedure (like public/private key encryption or one time pads). Has any of you people suggesting encryption any background in computer science, especially computer security, especially encryption and does still believe this could work? Actually anyone i talked about this find the idea hilarious... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EiZei 0 Posted April 14, 2004 Heh, big companies like EA shell out boatloads of money for regular copy protections that get cracked in less than a week and suddenly BIS can do better? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dwarden 1124 Posted April 14, 2004 P.S. for addon makers if You still want protection, ask/suggest BIS to implement for OFP2 special type of 128+ bit encrypted addons and addon makers can get theirs key to sign that addons etc... Maybe i am overlooking something but afaik encryption will not protect addons in any way, especially user-made ones. If you think otherwise please explain how you think it should work. And i don't mean which algorithm (like 1024bit AES keys), but more like which procedure (like public/private key encryption or one time pads). Has any of you people suggesting encryption any background in computer science, especially computer security, especially encryption and does still believe this could work? Actually anyone i talked about this find the idea hilarious... Benu, i myself dont believe in total security as anything can be break, question is just how fast. It was just idea to feed these who want it ... it can be done over key system, it also can force people to visit mod maker site to download public key,it can result into OFP2 shows licence agreement in moment of key application (so nobody can argue about no licence for addon) etc. Still process can be reversed and so on , let say it will just keep script kiddies off bussiness I would like see BIS orienting more on anticheat solutions than encrypted addons Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benu 1 Posted April 14, 2004 Benu, i myself dont believe in total security as anything can be break, question is just how fast. It was just idea to feed these who want it ... it can be done over key system, it also can force people to visit mod maker site to download public key,it can result into OFP2 shows licence agreement in moment of key application (so nobody can argue about no licence for addon) etc. No, it's not about how fast, it's about being possible at all. In this scenario (addons should be readable by ofp1 -> game has key -> i have game), it is just not possible. It starts with ofp1 not having any crytographic keys and ends with if it had any i could just use them too. Proof me wrong. I just want to get this point out of this discussion as fast as possible so we can concentrate on the real issues. Quote[/b] ]Still process can be reversed and so on , let say it will just keep script kiddies off bussiness Wrong again. If something as this will appear with ofp2 the key will just have to be "reversed" once, by one wily hacker. After that every "script kiddie" can just "decrypt" every addon. Quote[/b] ]I would like see BIS orienting more on anticheat solutions than encrypted addons Me2. That's why i want to get out of this really pointless encryption debate once and for all. I have the impression no one in favour of this has any understanding of computer security. I always read nebulous "encrypt the addons" but can't see how they want to do it. Especially as there is no decrytion inside ofp1 at all. It would be cool if everyone wanting encryption either tells us of their genius idea and how to do it (i would patent it first though, you could get rich with this) or buries the topic once and for all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ruff 102 Posted April 14, 2004 on topic ive edited a infantry model but the head seems to be below his legs wen converting it back to pbo any suggestions? any suggestions? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pathy 0 Posted April 14, 2004 As i said, its the named selections gone wrong, but, ask in the Breathe area of this forum mate, im no expert on units but if you ask there youre bound to get help from someone who knows what they are talking about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rudedog 0 Posted April 14, 2004 I had the same issue. It's because everything is out of alignment. Create another LOD and paste a copy of a soldier from the demo models. Right-click the LOD number and choose Show as Background. Then align the rest of the lod's with it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
T J 0 Posted April 14, 2004 A note about VBS1 models. DO NOT TRY TO INTRODUCE THEM TO OFP. This is a very serious issue. TJ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hellfish6 7 Posted April 14, 2004 Any report of VBS1 addons attempted to be imported will be dealt with harshly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BraTTy 0 Posted April 14, 2004 Seriously? I am still unclear as to exactly our rights with OFP content...mainly Res content. Not that I plan on using any Bis stuff,just I like to know these things. And on the encryption subject..sure it can be cracked,but... Adding those annoyances will stop the majority or curious people,for example.I wouldn't open someones binarized addon (exclude ofp config files) So even with my curiousity it has stopped my prying eyes. And the majority of OFP users aren't technical and can barely find and use the common stuff we use ...pboextracter and such And using an addon that you had to "unlock" you will be less likey to borrow anything but visual information from it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Matthijs 40 Posted April 14, 2004 Quote[/b] ]If you need to use human models there are non BIS models available on an open licence to develop from. Not the only example but in my humble opinion the best International soldier model 2nd down in the list http://mods.kmarns.net/modules....d&cid=2 Hold on... that's not entirely true. The bare man is for a big part based on the soldier from the demo. As I used the demo unit as a basis, I thought it would be unfair to use part of BIS' work myself and not allow others to use/modify the result. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dwarden 1124 Posted April 15, 2004 OT: BENU i wasnt speaking about OFP1 at all i said OFP2, and i know in moment its breach once, it's over so now i run fast off this discussion as it will always lead to nowhere good to know You agree Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
