Joint ammo and magazines (jam)

[Blink Dog 0]

The advantage of having AI with HD weapons is you can pump up the AI's skill so they can more easily detect you without increasing their accuracy. it also come in handy when you are using lightly armoured helis in a mission and they are not getting pelted by 100's of rounds thus destroying them too quickly.

[ruff 102]

So, what are you going to do in a cooperative mission against HD baddies when your ammunition runs out?

so wat?

get it from ur own squad!

or arm urself with a whole heap!

id like to see someone survive in that coop mission ur talking about with that many baddies that dont have hd mags!

As I can testify, Eizei regularly lasts long enough in coop missions without HD mags to run out of ammo (single shot, aimed) - its not hard, unless you're used to the AI being completely unable to hit anything and run around like its cs (eg if you were used to HD mags..)

Quote[/b] ]Gollum1

You can kill enemies perfectly well with it. Besides, the advantages of HD weapons easily outweigh the disadvantages

What advantages?  I've already posted the problems with them.  And you CANT kill enemies perfectly well with them; you just have to keep firing until you get a lucky shot.  I hate games that are determined only by luck.

and y would u play with jam or hd mags in the first place!!!!!

and in coop i reckon the mission is pretty stoopid if u make a mission where there is too much enemies and the mags ur supplied isnt enuff!!!

and i dont know y even u would bother to play with missions with hd mags if u hate them so much!!!!

and ai are still pretty good with hd mags especially in the bas tonal map or a map where a script is in use wih the ai

u only have to play bas deltaforce desert mission to c that.

and ive played ofp before i discovered hd mags and even when i use hd mags its nearly the end of a game so it doesnt matter, even the tonal missions where hd mags were used i was still able to kill people with it, u anticipate where the fire was going, and if ppl are so called hot shots they should be able to shoot with hd mags easily sincethey should be able to compensate for the innacurateness.

and again dont use it or pla in a coop mission with it, u can even edit it for goodness sake!

hd was meant for ai period! and ppl hu use hd i believe in their defense that as u can c ppl dont die that easily in war. they want to simultae that and if u dont like it dont use it

[cornhelium 0]

Salut!

For future JAM versions, could it be possible to embed a script into each JAM weapon pbo so that, whenever a player picks up a HD weapon, the script removes all primary magazines and replaces them with non-HD mags?

Personally I don't mind using scavenged HD, but if this was possible then you'd really get the best of both worlds.

Cheers,

Edit: I guess for MP another script would be needed to reverse the process when a Player dies/drops weapon (though this would only be needed to stop AI rearming with non-HD).

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Then dont use JAM, simple as that...

If you enjoy getting killed by a headshot first time by an AI with an AK waaay before the action has even begun to start, then keep playing normal OFP.

OR if it bothers you that much, make your own Mod that does the same as JAM, but tweaking the AI instead...

If you had read the thread, you would have seen that I suggested tweaking the AI instead of this making the weapon innaccurate nonsense.  I don't play normal flashpoint any more; I play FDF which has tweaked AI, and is a far far better solution IMO.

@Ruff: any chance you could use the same language as the rest of us? I'm trying to decipher your post but..

First point: you claim missions are stupid if there are lots of enemies. No, its called multiple objectives. The enemies don't all have to be at the same place.

Second point: I don't play missions with HD mags because I hate them so much; however I would like to play some of the missions because they have good storylines, objectives, features, or implementation of vehicles.

Third point: Again, tricky to decipher from the pre-teen spelling, but I think you ask why I don't make my own missions or edit them: because I like to play multiplayer and therefore cant edit the map, and those I could edit and re-upload would still need to be tested first. Not to mention 'rippping off' someone elses work, which I dont want to do.

I like JAM, I like the idea of JAM, I know the AI is too accurate in unmodified flashpoint. But HD mags are a crap 'solution.'

[4 IN 1 0]

i dont know for sure, but it seems tweaking the AI is not a effective way................

[ruff 102]

Then dont use JAM, simple as that...

If you enjoy getting killed by a headshot first time by an AI with an AK waaay before the action has even begun to start, then keep playing normal OFP.

OR if it bothers you that much, make your own Mod that does the same as JAM, but tweaking the AI instead...

If you had read the thread, you would have seen that I suggested tweaking the AI instead of this making the weapon innaccurate nonsense.  I don't play normal flashpoint any more; I play FDF which has tweaked AI, and is a far far better solution IMO.

@Ruff: any chance you could use the same language as the rest of us?  I'm trying to decipher your post but..

First point: you claim missions are stupid if there are lots of enemies.  No, its called multiple objectives.  The enemies don't all have to be at the same place.

Second point: I don't play missions with HD mags because I hate them so much; however I would like to play some of the missions because they have good storylines, objectives, features, or implementation of vehicles.  

Third point: Again, tricky to decipher from the pre-teen spelling, but I think you ask why I don't make my own missions or edit them: because I like to play multiplayer and therefore cant edit the map, and those I could edit and re-upload would still need to be tested first.  Not to mention 'rippping off' someone elses work, which I dont want to do.

I like JAM, I like the idea of JAM, I know the AI is too accurate in unmodified flashpoint.  But HD mags are a crap 'solution.'

i gues y dont u just keep playin the fdf mod

i just dont know why u would like jam and hate hd mags

i believe tweaking ai is too much to do, i mean jam is just to do with mags, ur asking the jam makers to actually MAKE units that have in built scripts in them!

i guess ur just too OLD or have really OLD friends if u dont understand wat i write

and by the looks of it YOU did understand wat i wrote

so i guess u were just tryin to get on me nerves

[One 0]

The advantage of having AI with HD weapons is you can pump up the AI's skill so they can more easily detect you without increasing their accuracy. it also come in handy when you are using lightly armoured helis in a mission and they are not getting pelted by 100's of rounds thus destroying them too quickly.

Word, blink dog.............

it honestly takes 20 seconds for a default russian squad to shoot down a littlebird. its insane. try it sometime. you will all be disgusted.

[Acecombat 0]

The advantage of having AI with HD weapons is you can pump up the AI's skill so they can more easily detect you without increasing their accuracy. it also come in handy when you are using lightly armoured helis in a mission and they are not getting pelted by 100's of rounds thus destroying them too quickly.

Word, blink dog.............

it honestly takes 20 seconds for a default russian squad to shoot down a littlebird. its insane. try it sometime. you will all be disgusted.

If you hover and do nothing then YES ... but if you strafe and move away and improvise your contact tactics i doubt if they can , i played with it on Tonal no one was able to bring me down that easily...

[dm 9]

Then dont use JAM, simple as that...

If you enjoy getting killed by a headshot first time by an AI with an AK waaay before the action has even begun to start, then keep playing normal OFP.

OR if it bothers you that much, make your own Mod that does the same as JAM, but tweaking the AI instead...

If you had read the thread, you would have seen that I suggested tweaking the AI instead of this making the weapon innaccurate nonsense.  I don't play normal flashpoint any more; I play FDF which has tweaked AI, and is a far far better solution IMO.

If YOU had read the thread, you would have seen that we discussed the option of modifing the AI's activity waay back in the first few pages, without the need for you to drag the whole topic back up again...

Now as far as I can see from the testing I have done, there are at least 6 reasons for why JAM is much better as it is:

1) Modifying the AI would mean that JAM would have to become a mod, which would then cause even MORE problems in mp, with people with JAM trying to play people without JAM, and ending up getting kicked for "cheating" (by having "modified" configs.

2) Modifying the AI would also run the risk of breaking not only the BIS missions, but a lot of usermade missions as well. As it stands, JAM does NOT do this at the moment.

3) From what I have played of FDF (thats all the single missions) I find that the AI is still deadly accurate at long ranges, despite the "modifications" that have been done to the AI. Yes there is a small difference, but hardly noticeable to me.

4) As Blink Dog said, the advantage of having HD mags is that you can crank the AI's skill up to max, even putting superAI on if you feel that dangerous, and they wont become snipers with AK's. Which in my books is far more unrealistic than HD mags.

5) The advantage of HD mags is clear when flying AI Targetable helicopters. With normal mags, the AI are able to dispatch a Littlebird or a Huey very quickly, whereas with HD Mags you vcan see the tracers flying past, the odd one hitting your helicopter (much more if you are flying over heavliy populated territory) and the atmosphere is about 1000 times better than when you get shot in the head by some AI with a PK from 1000m...

6) Despite what you say, the HD mags ARE still effective... I've played countless hours of SP and MP with the enemy on HD mags, and myself at times. Yes I appreciate that they can be the most anoying thing on the planet, espescially after the third full mag has missed everyone. BUT, and its a big BUT, this promotes CQB much more than tweaked AI. HD mags are perfect for 'Nam situations, perfect for play on Tonal, and all the BIS islands. It may be HD, but you still cant miss from point blank...

I'll round off by saying, you must enjoy being a sniper Baron, but I sure dont enjoy every AI being one.

JAM has come up with what we feel is the best solution to the problem, one that not only works, but does not break the game, MP or any third party missions.

If you want tweaked AI, I suggest you start learning how to tweak it.

[Gollum1 0]

Agree with DM.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

If YOU had read the thread, you would have seen that we discussed the option of modifing the AI's activity waay back in the first few pages, without the need for you to drag the whole topic back up again...

It was never resolved to my satisfaction; there are problems with it, and seeing as this thread is in Addons and mods: DISCUSSION I thought we might discuss it.  

Quote[/b] ]

Now as far as I can see from the testing I have done, there are at least 6 reasons for why JAM is much better as it is:

1) Modifying the AI would mean that JAM would have to become a mod, which would then cause even MORE problems in mp, with people with JAM trying to play people without JAM, and ending up getting kicked for "cheating" (by having "modified" configs.

If you are playing clan matches, normal procedure is to run a 'clean' version with no extraneous addons, mods, etc.  In other words, thats not a problem.  And if the mission uses the mod, everyone would have the same config... would the server still say its a modified config if its the same as the server's??  

Quote[/b] ]

2) Modifying the AI would also run the risk of breaking not only the BIS missions, but a lot of usermade missions as well. As it stands, JAM does NOT do this at the moment.

Why?  Modifying only the AI, and only the AI accuracy at that?  Why would that break anything?  The Campaigns are completely playable through FDF mod, afaik, and it does a hell of a lot more than just change accuracy.

Quote[/b] ]

3) From what I have played of FDF (thats all the single missions) I find that the AI is still deadly accurate at long ranges, despite the "modifications" that have been done to the AI. Yes there is a small difference, but hardly noticeable to me.

Then you weren't paying enough attention.  (Not meaning to be offensive).  The AI is totally different in regards to accuracy.  They are more realistic: they don't hit dead on first shot, but given enough time they will hit you.  They are not deadly accurate; they are realistically accurate.  

*

Quote[/b] ]

4) As Blink Dog said, the advantage of having HD mags is that you can crank the AI's skill up to max, even putting superAI on if you feel that dangerous, and they wont become snipers with AK's. Which in my books is far more unrealistic than HD mags.

And the disadvantage of that is that you can almost run through a hail of bullets without getting scratched because the weapons are so unrealistically inaccurate.  You are comparing default OFP with HD mags when you should be comparing tweaking the AI with HD mags.  

Just to clarify: Standard OFP's accuracy is too good.  HD mags are not the best solution to this, however.  They are quite a good solution, but IMO not the best.

Quote[/b] ]

5) The advantage of HD mags is clear when flying AI Targetable helicopters. With normal mags, the AI are able to dispatch a Littlebird or a Huey very quickly, whereas with HD Mags you vcan see the tracers flying past, the odd one hitting your helicopter (much more if you are flying over heavliy populated territory) and the atmosphere is about 1000 times better than when you get shot in the head by some AI with a PK from 1000m...

Again, default OFP VS HD, which I am not arguing about.

Quote[/b] ]

6) Despite what you say, the HD mags ARE still effective...

I've played countless hours of SP and MP with the enemy on HD mags, and myself at times. Yes I appreciate that they can be the most anoying thing on the planet, espescially after the third full mag has missed everyone. BUT, and its a big BUT, this promotes CQB much more than tweaked AI. HD mags are perfect for 'Nam situations, perfect for play on Tonal, and all the BIS islands. It may be HD, but you still cant miss from point blank...

The HD mags are effective by LUCK, which is far more frustrating IMO.  I hate having luck as the deciding factor: it is not a fun gameplay experience.  Sure, you can kill with the mags, noone is saying that you can't - but if you do, its because you got lucky and the guy you were firing at was unlucky.... not because either of you are skilled.  

CQB may be better with HD mags.. but thats because they are so bad at long range, not because they are intrinsically better at cqb.  I'd still rather have an accurate weapon and aim, than blat off a couple of hundred rounds at someone's head in a window, without hitting.

Quote[/b] ]

I'll round off by saying, you must enjoy being a sniper Baron, but I sure dont enjoy every AI being one.

No, actually I enjoy using tactics and teamplay to get in close to the enemy and hit them from where they don't expect.  

I don't like the AI being super accurate either; I'm not arguing about that.  Please dont start erecting straw men.

Quote[/b] ]

JAM has come up with what we feel is the best solution to the problem, one that not only works, but does not break the game, MP or any third party missions.

And I disagree and feel that there is a better solution: one that does not break the game, MP or 3rd party missions, which does not make the game based on luck and detract from skill, which does not frustrate players as much, which makes the game more realistic and involving..

Quote[/b] ]

If you want tweaked AI, I suggest you start learning how to tweak it.

Did I not say 'I like playing multiplayer'?

*The problem is, I suppose, that when you play you want different things from me.

I don't like fighting poorly equipped peasants that cannot hit me: I like fighting on what seems like equal terms.  In other words, playing with a huge advantage over the enemy doesn't really appeal to me.  Fighting with special forces against untrained, badly equipped militias doesn't  appeal as much as fighting an enemy that is equipped and trained as well as me.  At least in game ;)

I think (apart from the annoyance of not being able to use the weapons effectively yourself if you pick them up) the HD weapons go too far the other way: they are unrealistically inaccurate for any slightly trained soldier.  Yes, they simulate untrained militia well.. but they do not simulate .. Nato soldiers, for example.

[dm 9]

At the end of the day, we have the knowledge to do this, and you do not.

I beleive that you are trying to expolit this point to make us make the AI tweaking addon for you.

Evis and SelectThis put a hell of a lot of time and effort into making JAM how it is, and they will NOT be changing it because you don't like the way the HD mags work.

I tried to be polite about it, I tried to hint that this was the case.

So now I will be blunt, possibly to the point of being rude:

They arent going to change it, if you want it done that way (by tweaking the AI) you'd better bloody well learn how to do it yourself.

[ravendk 25]

AMEN DEADMEAT

[SelectThis 0]

Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX, one reason why we did not make this a "mod" with a config.bin edit is due to the rational behind JAM.

JAM is meant to be a addon which allows different addon makers to use the same magazines for different versions of the same weapon. Eg a BAS M4 would use the same magazines as a DigitalGrenade M4. To make it a bin edit would defeat the purpose of that. To have done so and then required addon makers to use that bin file would have been a bit too extreme imo.

We spent alot of time looking at alternate methods of prolonging firefights and reducing the insane 250m head shots from an unseen AI enemy. The two methods we found that worked were to adjust recoils and dispersion. Other cpp changes were not effective. While it would have been nice to have the time and resources to perfect the balance between dispersion and recoils for every magazine, that was just not possible.

We are not against people playing with the JAM figures and given time contraints will look people's suggestions (note: not just suggestions for one magazine but for the whole set of magazines in JAM, as they all have to work consistently with each other!)

Currently JAM comes in standard BIS dispersion and HD dispersion, we provided the tools for the mission maker and it's up to the mission maker which dispersion model they use.

Anyway, HD is not that bad if you fire from the prone position, dispersion gets higher if you are kneeling or standing up. It just takes time to get use to them. And there is just something more exciting about a shot that just misses you compared to one that comes out of nowhere and kills you.

Another thing to consider is that even highly trained soldiers take ALOT of ammo into combat, their hit rate is nowhere as high as in OFP using standard dispersions.

SelectThis

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

At the end of the day, we have the knowledge to do this, and you do not.

I beleive that you are trying to expolit this point to make us make the AI tweaking addon for you.

Umm... what? Holy paranoid delusions batman.

Pardon me for trying to have an honest discussion....

Quote[/b] ]

Evis and SelectThis put a hell of a lot of time and effort into making JAM how it is, and they will NOT be changing it because you don't like the way the HD mags work.

As I have repeatedly said, JAM is a great idea and is amazingly well done. I've never disparaged their great acheivements; I only have a problem with HD mags, NOT JAM.

Quote[/b] ]

I tried to be polite about it, I tried to hint that this was the case.

So now I will be blunt, possibly to the point of being rude:

They arent going to change it, if you want it done that way (by tweaking the AI) you'd better bloody well learn how to do it yourself.

Aww, someone has his panties in a twist because they dont understand the difference between constructive criticism and disparagement. I dont like HD mags. I dont like luck. I do like JAM and I do admire greatly the work that went into it.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Deadmeat, you should learn from selectthis; THAT is how to construct a reply. Although still a bit patronising.

[hellfish6 7]

Baron and Deadmeat - please cool off. Obviously you guys are having trouble communicating. Getting pissed off at each other isn't helping anything. Rephrase your questions and answers more politely and I think that everyone will be happier and the point will get across more clearly.

[dm 9]

*sighs*

I will say is this:

Both myself and SelectThis (the daddy of JAM) have stated, explained and reasoned why JAM will NOT ever be an AI tweaking mod.

We gave clear and concise reasons behind JAM, and the way it works, yet Baron does not seem to be able to comprehend this.

On no less than 4 occasions have I stated why JAM will not ever be an AI tweaking mod, and SelectThis has said it at least twice.

Now the following statement may get me in trouble, but I am willing to take whatever punishment (if any) is felt correct:

But I believe the one and only person here who has the communication problem is the Baron, as it has been repeated over and over again that JAM will NOT change from its current design.

I have suggested to him the one thing he can do if he wishes to have an AI tweaking version, and that is to code it himself, as I can state that SelectThis and Evis will NOT be changing JAM to these ends.

As I have said before, I tried being polite, that did not work, I tride being blunt, that also did not work, so I am beginning to wonder if Baron is even reading my posts, as from my point of view they communicate the point quite clearly, and that is that JAM WILL NOT CHANGE... (for about the tenth time)

JAM wont change to be an AI tweaking mod, so what else is there to discuss??

[Acecombat 0]

I think the message of the day in BOLD would be:

JAM WILL NOT CHAAANNNGEEEE PERIOD!!

[Guest]

Actually it would be a total pain in the ass if JAM changed. No point in having a "standard" if it keeps on changing  

As for HD....don't use it! Nobody is forcing you....give your AI regular Ammo. IMO they do add atmosphere (as DeadMeat points out)....in fact used well, they add a LOT of atmosphere. And as for the luck factor...that's life! They are still aiming at you, and I don't have any problems shooting poorly trained militia who are shooting at me, however inaccurately.  

I glad to hear JAM ain't changing....I might even have to start coding it into our mod one of these days    

[Katerina 0]

HD mags are a option, you don't have to use it. It is down to the mission maker on what he/she uses. We just give them the option.

[cassandra 0]

as far as I can tell, jam has increased the fun factor in the game ten fold by adding that element of the unknown "are they dead?" and also having bullets hit all around you really gets the adreniline going. in my opinion, jam hd increases the use of stealth to get closer to the enemy which always bugged me when hiding behind an object didn't seem to matter so much.. and I'm by no means an outstanding player

I don't know why, but it seems to me baron that you want to reduce the playability through lack of patience and that real life factor some call the chaos theory.. and I don't think anyone appreciates your childish badgering - if you want something done, do it yourself - I can't stress that enough.. nobody is going to make addons for me, tweak something in my favour, do this that or the other for my own personal gain, if I want something I would either 1) try to do it myself through help from those willing to help or 2) just don't and go back to playing and appreciating the miriad of other community efforts that appeal to me (not those that don't) that various enthusiasts have gone out of their way to create that improves the life and playability of this wonderful game

I'm beginning to think we need a hall of fame for those people who love to have an honest discussion, whatever that is?!?

[Guest]

The mods have a ban list Cass

[dm 9]

In retrospect,

Baron Hurlothrumbo, If you wish so dearly to see an AI tweaking version of JAM, please fell free to write the code changes neccisary into a full config.cpp, and send them to us for evaluation (we dont have the time to do it, as we are busy with other addons).

That way, if your system works, then we may be able to look at some form of AI tweaking version of JAM, no promisies tho...

[@cero 0]

Uh? AI tweaking? don't you think this will only work with those addons that are AI tweaked?

The thing with JAM mags is that you can use a unit, witchever, and by script or init field, or whatever, you can change the weapon loadout to sut, letting them use JAM. How can you do that to the AI?

Scripting would be a solution, but configurations? that would make a hall new addon of every unit you want to make like that.