AI must have better autonomy.

[smashballs 25]

Its been 5 years... I still don't find the SP experience fun at all... I have been waiting since release for the AI to be fixed. I expected this to be tackled fast because not only is AI the star of the show in SP, you also have to depend on them. I waited a couple more years to pick back up Arma 3 to see if the AI has finally been fixed, and much to my disappointment its still embarrassing.

 

I am playing the campaign again and guess what i still see?

 

• The AI is still terrible at navigation
• They don't communicated to other friendly AI, only to their squad.
• They don't have any initiative, I shouldn't have to micro the AI so hard... I want to give them basic orders... like: Defend this area, assault town form (direction), convoy, defend building, etc...
• AI won't follow precautions or find good cover when they are attacking.
• They don't think to rearm//repair/refuel any vehicles that need it.
• Helicopters cant simply land and let units out... most of the time they crash or land upside down.

 

It's just ridiculous, I understand this game is huge and ambitious but there is a point where you no longer need more stuff. You just need to fix whats already there and the AI is still broken to this very day.

 

What would make the AI super impressive, is strategic AI... Something that can give the AI squads across the entire game map strategic orders to help the military work in unison, and squad AI that can do proper tactics to follow the strategic AI. So if you have a squad not doing anything, have them called over to support an infantry division.... then have that squad get there by any means necessary (using any possible vehicles, etc...) and enter the area in a smart way. Imagine only having to draw up some orders on the map, assigning a squad or platoon to the orders, and have them carry out your master plan without needing tell them exactly what to do.... Even to the extent of using vehicles you assign them, so the AI will use transports or support vehicles properly. Also, have the strategic AI make use of planes/helicopters so the platoons/squads can call them in if necessary .... If you don't want AI to work with the strategic AI, then have an option to set that....  Arma 3 would probably be the only game I ever played!

 

... In all honesty though... I would be just fine too if they had some limited strategic ability.... so that way they aren't totally broken..

 

Here is something I want to see if nothing else, improved orders menu... its tedious to have to memorize which number gives them which set of orders... I know OFP:RD isn't even made by the same company, or affiliated but please take some pointers... their orders menu isn't the best but it's better then what I see in Arma 3 and it includes simpler orders that the AI seem to follow pretty well on their own.

[smashballs 25]

Also, strategic AI would open a world of unique Zeus vs Zeus scenarios, including making the Zeus master scenario vastly improved... So instead of spending time baby sitting the AI... you could just give them some basic orders, and hang out with players or expand the scenario.

[ZackTactical34 86]

While I do believe the AI is seriously lacking in Arma 3, I recommend that you check out ASR. It's not perfect but it definitely improves the AI to some extent.

[smashballs 25]

That actually looks really good... I mean:

 

- AI share info about threats with other groups in their proximity if they have radios. Enhances awareness for groups that are not directly in contact with an enemy.

(The AI are very silent to eachother.)

- AI machinegunners use suppressive fire. Makes them more effective and feared.

(I have noticed that the machine gunner doesn't really do their job.)

- AI groups coming into contact while in the open will try to move to cover. Helps them survive longer when caught in the open.

(They usually just hit the dust and hope to not die.)

- Buildings are used in combat by AI. You may see AI shooting from windows or rooftops and it may not be as easy to hide in a house anymore.

(They usually will bunch up in the room and defend points that don't need defending.)

- AI may move to cover and pop smoke when hit to help conceal while taking care of their wounds.

(They will literally heal out in the open!... What the hell!?)

 

Seriously... BIS needs to take notes from community add-ons like this!

 

I mean this needs to just be vanilla to be honest... as much as I like modding, I don't believe that game systems should be left to the community. I like the community putting their own touch, but the developers should be actively working on it too. The AI is NO exception! It's been put off for far too long... In all honesty, I don't think the AI just needs better driving or have more realistic visibility... I just think the AI system needs to be totally scrapped and rebuilt... 

[smashballs 25]

The main reason I rant about strategic AI is because AI works so much better with hierarchies... This had been proven with games like Hearts of Iron 4... how you have generals under field marshes and they all work together to make battle plans get carried out in a fairly smooth matter. I don't really see that in Arma 3... There might be squad AI.. but it does the minimum and you can't reasonably give orders to your AI like AI squads can... its too hard to fight AND tell what each individual member should do. which is why there needs to be a more silent hierarchy AI... so that way your squads and AI squads will formulate tactics better without being 100% dependent on the squad commander.

[stanhope 411]

10 hours ago, smashballs said:

Seriously... BIS needs to take notes from community add-ons like this!

Just an FYI: ASR AI 3 is shared under Arma public license share alike.  

This is included in APL-SA: Noncommercial - You may not use this material for any commercial purposes.

 

Another FYI: bohemia makes money off of arma 3.

 

11 hours ago, smashballs said:

I expected this [the AI] to be tackled fast

It's not some well kept secret that arma 3s AI isn't the best in the world.  If you googled arma for more than 5 minutes before buying it you'd have known that arma 3s AI is far from the best.  So you knew, or at least could've know, what you were buying.  My question is who exactly are you to expect this?

[Gunter Severloh 4054]

Lots of community made content for the AI see the addons/mods, and scripts section on my list

https://forums.bohemia.net/forums/topic/165560-ai-compilation-list-of-addonsmodsscripts-threads-for-arma3/

I agree about some of the points you made in your OP, OP, lol

but i rarely if ever play the base game, base game aka vanilla to me is like the box that holds all the toys, its just a template for you to play on, imo without the community Arma isn't what it is.

 

Get your hands on some good scripts, like VComAI 3.0, among the few others there, mods too are great.

Yes i think the base game AI can improve such as basic stuff as you listed, but where we are at right now in development as far as i understand its not going to happen, as the next game and other things are coming.

Tbh when i build my own missions with no added scripts, or no mods, used, i find the Ai satisfying, and even more satisfying when i am using scripts or whatnot for the AI,

just remember its a big sandbox, dont take the container for the toys inside ;)

 

[Rydygier 1309]

Quote

I just think the AI system needs to be totally scrapped and rebuilt...

 

Seems so, also because, IIRC, there was statements, devs are reluctant to touch AI, which grew into too dense jungle since OFP.

 

Commanding AI of higher level (perhaps even with different commander's personalities/skill levels/favourite tactics), more human-like low level AI etc. etc. nice stuff discussed many times is all very desired as for me, but also I think, it should have modular/flexible/switchable/tweakable structure. Sometimes too independent AI would be an obstacle in the mission design, sometimes may become too CPU-hungry, and then it's behavioral complexicity should be also auto-scaleable (optionally of course).

 

One may have at least slim hope as for hypothetical Arma 4 in this regard, question is, would such investement be perceived by BI as business-justifiable. 

 

Quote

It's not some well kept secret that arma 3s AI isn't the best in the world. 

 

Frank question: in which games AI is actually better? I look for such games, but no luck so far. We are talking open world comprehensive milsim here, which makes creating a decently behaving AI quite ambitious task comparing to closed corridor games.  

[ProfTournesol 956]

15 minutes ago, Rydygier said:

Frank question: in which games AI is actually better? I look for such games, but no luck so far. We are talking open world comprehensive milsim here, which makes creating a decently behaving AI quite ambitious task comparing to closed corridor games.  

 

None.

[EDcase 87]

Yes, ARMA AI uses TRUE artificial intelligence that is not pre-programmed with places to hide in a fight.  This is the main reason why ARMA is so CPU intensive.

 

I've seen them behave exactly like humans hiding behind obstacles and leaning out to shoot and changing position if under fire.

I've also seen them just standing around while others nearby are being shot so it does vary.

[smashballs 25]

17 hours ago, stanhope said:

Just an FYI: ASR AI 3 is shared under Arma public license share alike.  

This is included in APL-SA: Noncommercial - You may not use this material for any commercial purposes.

 

Another FYI: bohemia makes money off of arma 3.

 

It's not some well kept secret that arma 3s AI isn't the best in the world.  If you googled arma for more than 5 minutes before buying it you'd have known that arma 3s AI is far from the best.  So you knew, or at least could've know, what you were buying.  My question is who exactly are you to expect this?

 

What? ....

 

I mean yeah, the terrible AI is no secrete, and I guess in that regard one should not have any expectations when investing into early access either.... that doesn't excuse it though. Especially since this had been one of the things that was supposed to be done at release.

 

16 hours ago, Gunter Severloh said:

Lots of community made content for the AI see the addons/mods, and scripts section on my list

https://forums.bohemia.net/forums/topic/165560-ai-compilation-list-of-addonsmodsscripts-threads-for-arma3/

I agree about some of the points you made in your OP, OP, lol

but i rarely if ever play the base game, base game aka vanilla to me is like the box that holds all the toys, its just a template for you to play on, imo without the community Arma isn't what it is.

 

Get your hands on some good scripts, like VComAI 3.0, among the few others there, mods too are great.

Yes i think the base game AI can improve such as basic stuff as you listed, but where we are at right now in development as far as i understand its not going to happen, as the next game and other things are coming.

Tbh when i build my own missions with no added scripts, or no mods, used, i find the Ai satisfying, and even more satisfying when i am using scripts or whatnot for the AI,

just remember its a big sandbox, dont take the container for the toys inside ;)

 

 

ZackTactical34 just got me hooked on Vcom + ALiVE, hehehe

 

16 hours ago, Rydygier said:

 

Seems so, also because, IIRC, there was statements, devs are reluctant to touch AI, which grew into too dense jungle since OFP.

 

Commanding AI of higher level (perhaps even with different commander's personalities/skill levels/favourite tactics), more human-like low level AI etc. etc. nice stuff discussed many times is all very desired as for me, but also I think, it should have modular/flexible/switchable/tweakable structure. Sometimes too independent AI would be an obstacle in the mission design, sometimes may become too CPU-hungry, and then it's behavioral complexicity should be also auto-scaleable (optionally of course).

 

One may have at least slim hope as for hypothetical Arma 4 in this regard, question is, would such investement be perceived by BI as business-justifiable. 

 

Trust me, I know BI's main thing is the modding and multiplayer... that's what sells... but I never think it's bad to share what you think needs to be discussed... usually if enough people complain, companies will fix problems. However, I think me and you both understand the AI is doomed to stay terrible.

[smashballs 25]

 

15 hours ago, EDcase said:

Yes, ARMA AI uses TRUE artificial intelligence that is not pre-programmed with places to hide in a fight.  This is the main reason why ARMA is so CPU intensive.

 

I've seen them behave exactly like humans hiding behind obstacles and leaning out to shoot and changing position if under fire.

I've also seen them just standing around while others nearby are being shot so it does vary.

 

Yeah... the game levels don't have nav-meshes or hints to tell the AI what to do... it has to be done by editor scripts, and that's not a full solution because even the campaign AI is a struggle to put up with.

 

I have seen them vary in behavior too, it just makes things weird... I have seen them stare at walls instead of where the enemy has been, or just stand there absent minded. They AI at very least should be active and consistent!

[froggyluv 2136]

And here lies the eternal topic.

 

Part I

Is Arma AI good, maybe the best of any large scale open map military game? Probably yes.

Is Arma AI One Huge F'n ret*rded bull***t cl*st*terF*ck that'll drive you outta your F*cking mind and make you milk one of your kittens teet? Possibly.

 

All the good arguments are spent both above and in the vast 15 + years in the abyss of these forum just past that wall, but after many years a fanboi turned hater (post tanoa incident) I think the AI are easily saved and can by far be the best of anything close to this genre.

 

Things Im hopeful the new Arma 4 team Ai team will develop and/or ponder:

 

Put majority infantry focus on CQB small scale battles in busy environment. (PS Im only focused on infantry for this essay). Alot of weird, non-enjoyable behaviours really shines when your small squad in a city encounters another small squad or even a solo enemy yet half your team (and theirs) decide the best course of action is to turn PERPENDICULAR to the direction of your ONLY KNOWN THREAT. So now if I just snuck up on another squads flank but dont have time to manually dictate a target per squaddie, half my guys may turn right/left which just decreased my offense by half and what if the surprised team for some reason doesnt do this? Thats a bad feeling to think your guys would obviously keep guns trained in proper direction only to see them die sideways.. This is part of their AutoCombat routine and after experimenting with disabling it for CQB i see better results as far as orientation. Sometimes just the squad formation can cause this which again should be overidden in these circumstances.

 

But this is exactly where the game is seen, where the creases and seams show -this will not be as noticeable on a hilltop vs hilltop fight over 400meters. Nor will it be as noticed with 200 Ai battling it out for a city -so im talking masterclass level AI scaled for small cqb encounters trickling down to something less (but still good, no better!) as scale broadens. If a 12 vs 12 Blu/OpF assault teams are dueling it and they're all locked in on each other, and another enemy OpF 12man assault team shows up to spoil your party at flank, thereby breaking your beautifully oriented soldiers -well then good! Thats exactly whats supposed to happen, chaos! Let it break.

 

Next. More varied AI encounters. Combat is simply too binary, maybe the player is shocked for a moment but the AI are generally pretty blaise as its either fight/or dont fight -no worries eitherway. We need the meaty middleground, the tension that lies between those extremes bette fleshed out. Always loved how the game has the "UnKnown target 600m" -but how about now a worried troop goes into whisperd stealth mode and trains long rifles on it until its discovered one way or another. Tension sells!

 

 

 Yes you lucky enough to see my Juleliard trained self in a riveting display or pure African uncertainty in no less than 3 (3!) voices. Seriously tho, more situations where even friendly soldiers could act up in a threatening manner, not just thru the narrative storyline thats boring, let us experience it first hand.

 

To be Contin'd...

(video again disabled autocombat and ungrouped the duo -that is why they do a good job of keeping their guns trained. Without, 1 guy would unfailingly run off screen somewhere far to the left -he said he had a good reason,,)

 

 

[tpw 2315]

3 hours ago, froggyluv said:

 

 Yes you lucky enough to see my Juleliard trained self in a riveting display or pure African uncertainty in no less than 3 (3!) voices. Seriously tho, more situations where even friendly soldiers could act up in a threatening manner, not just thru the narrative storyline thats boring, let us experience it first hand.

 

 

 

Bahaha, loved the "bludclot", this game needs more Jamaican expletives.

 

But in all seriousness, I'm serious hoping that with A4 the devs focus on getting the infantry experience (the soul of Arma) properly sorted as an overriding priority.  I thought that was the intention when the A3 alpha was released, but years later the numerous gaping flaws in the player and AI infantry experience remain unaddressed, and now it seems, unaddressable. 

[ZackTactical34 86]

The funny thing is that you could achieve incredible results with Arma 2 AI. Don't believe, here are some of the extremes that can be achieved with Arma 2 (KAI Mod) (videos are not mine):

 

 

 

 

Stop and think about this for a moment. Someone managed to get the AI to operate like this...in Arma 2... BI, please prioritize your time on the AI!!!

[ZackTactical34 86]

But, I don't deny the great improvements that mods like VCOM, ASR, TPW, and others bring to Arma 3. I simply prefer Arma 2 AI (with mods of course). I'll have to get up a video sometime to show the comparison between the two.

 

One thing I love about Arma 2 AI is that they actually use their binoculars for spotting targets. Also, their driving is much better. I don't usually see the AI using binoculars in Arma 3. And, driving definitely needs improvement. The one thing I do like better about AI in Arma 3 is CQB.

[B_Fox 132]

I feel like AI development in Arma should been structured and layed out in a road map like the way they did with all the dlcs. Starting with the Infantry, then Ground vehicle then Air, and lastly sea even though the sea aspect of Arma has been largely ignored. Instead of being willy-nilly, just focus one branch at a time don't rush it, don't put some here, there, up and to the right and down and to the left.

[kremator 1065]

Really tempted to abandon Arma3 completely and go back to Arma2 !

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

4 hours ago, kremator said:

Really tempted to abandon Arma3 completely and go back to Arma2 !

 

Hello, players, look at Arma 3, now back to Arma 2, now back at 3, now back to 2.

Sadly, Arma 3 isn’t Arma 2, but if the devs stopped mangling the AI brains here and there and switched to proper programming procedures, Arma 3 could smell like it’s a more polished Arma 2.

Look down, back up, where are you? You’re playing Arma 2 with female civilians, furniture, battlefield clearance modules, a huge asset variety, everything you liked.

What’s on your screen, back at me. I see it, it’s Arma 3 MP where players are carrying 20 FAKs each. Look again, the FAKs are now armed Satchel Charges. Anything is possible when your game doesn't gather to pvp kiddies. I’m on a horse.

 

Cheers

[ZackTactical34 86]

7 hours ago, kremator said:

Really tempted to abandon Arma3 completely and go back to Arma2 !

Well, I'm already one step ahead of you. I fully plan on creating a proper AI mod for Arma 2. From what I've read, it's best to start off with simple scenarios and try to get the AI to perform specific tasks (e.g. taking proper cover when moving, stacking, etc.). Right now though, still learning C++ and SQF. If anyone wishes to help or contribute, I'm all for it.

[haleks 8212]

1 hour ago, ZackTactical34 said:

Well, I'm already one step ahead of you. I fully plan on creating a proper AI mod for Arma 2. From what I've read, it's best to start off with simple scenarios and try to get the AI to perform specific tasks (e.g. taking proper cover when moving, stacking, etc.). Right now though, still learning C++ and SQF. If anyone wishes to help or contribute, I'm all for it.

 

That makes me think : how much of what we call "AI behaviour" is in their FSM, and how much of it is "engine only" (out of reach from modders)?

I've never fiddled with AI tweaks, but I wonder if it's possible for modders to "re-write everything". I presume it's not. :/

[kremator 1065]

6 hours ago, Grumpy Old Man said:

 I’m on a horse.

Is there room on your horse for two ?

[Rydygier 1309]

Quote

but I wonder if it's possible for modders to "re-write everything". I presume it's not. :/

 

It's not, AFAIK. Otherwise this would be done already. In several variants. Despite this would likely require real, experienced pro-grammer rather than just some SQF scripter. FSMs seems to be just a surface layer. Same, as AI mods, we can create. Driving AI seems like good example of things out of our reach in the core, sadly. Correct me, if I'm wrong. 

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

5 hours ago, Rydygier said:

 

It's not, AFAIK. Otherwise this would be done already. In several variants. Despite this would likely require real, experienced pro-grammer rather than just some SQF scripter. FSMs seems to be just a surface layer. Same, as AI mods, we can create. Driving AI seems like good example of things out of our reach in the core, sadly. Correct me, if I'm wrong. 

This basically.

It's impossible to influence AI decision at the core, how AI decides when to fire one, burst or full auto, when to switch to sidearms or toss Mr. Handgrenade towards hope and a new friendship.

BI don't seem to be reluctant to add user made configs to the core game, seeing @oukejs suggestion about PIDs, wonder why nothing similar happens for AI brains.

 

Cheers

[.kju 3244]

Overall not much is exposed (there is a config FSM and actual FSM). Scripting commands are also very limited. Its mostly about status evaluation and disabling components.

Most in effect can achieved by parameter tweaking in configs. Very tedious and difficult overall due to the lack of deeper documentation (or at all) and no analysis tools for us (BI has them internally ofc).

One can script some aspects with a lot of effort, yet its mostly about movement and targeting. That said one is again limited by the low number of AI/unit status queries and the even less environment queries.

 

Since late A3 there are actually some AI brain parameter prioritization exposed:

 

class CfgBrains
{
	class DefaultSoldierBrain
	{
		class Components
		{
			class AIBrainAimingErrorComponent
			{
			};
			class AIBrainCountermeasuresComponent
			{
				minReactionTime = 0.1;
				maxReactionTime = 3;
				randomReactionTimePercent = 0.3;
				CMOnTargettedProbability = 0.5;
			};
			class AIBrainSuppressionComponent
			{
			};
			class AIBrainTargetSelectorComponent
			{
			};
		};
	};
	class DefaultCivilianBrain
	{
		class Components
		{
		};
	};
	class DefaultAnimalBrain
	{
		class Components
		{
		};
	};
};

However most had to be extracted by Dedmen again to be known in the first place ..

 

class AIBrainCountermeasuresComponent {
    useSmokeGrenadeDelay = 20;
    CMCheckDelay = 0.8;
    suppressionThreshold = 0.8;
    nonLeaderSmokeProbability = 0.1;
    CMOnTargettedProbability =0.1;
    suppressionTimerMax = 2;
    minimalThrowDistance = 900;
    minReactionTime = 0.1;
    maxReactionTime = 3;
    randomReactionTimePercent = 0.2;
};

class AIBrainSuppressionComponent {
    maxSuppression = 1;
    worstDecreaseTime = 20;
    bestDecreaseTime = 0.1;
    SuppressionRange = 1;
    CauseHitWeight = 0.5;
    CauseExplosionWeight = 0.15;
    CauseBulletCloseWeight = 0.15;
    SuppressionThreshold = 0.7;
};

class AIBrainAimingErrorComponent {
    maxAngularError = 0.1309;
    maxAngularErrorTurret = 0.15;
    worstDecreaseTime = 2;
    bestDecreaseTime = 0.2;
    lostTargetTimeMin = 0.5;
    lostTargetTimeMax = 3;
    shootingInfluence = 0.4;
    movingInfluence = 1;
    turningInfluence = 1;
    damageCoef = 10;
    fatigueCoef = 10;
    suppressionCoef = 0.5;
};

AIBrainTargetSelectorComponent is not implemented in 1.82

Still just like with "PID" the lack of docu altogether or just some very bare developer comments without any context or source code parts (plus lack of diagnostics again) wont get the community anywhere.

 

To me these aspects just show how little actual BI cares about modders, and lack of strategic approach or being part of the planning.