Re-uploading mods on the workshop

[rksl-rock 1301]

51 minutes ago, road runner said:

What legal right would BI have to suspend a persons steam account, where he can no longer have access to a game he purchased, my guess is none at all, and would be extremely counterproductive, you simply cannot remove a persons right as a paying customer, to remove that product.

 

 

If you breach the Steam Agreement in anyway you can have you account suspended.  I couldnt tell you how often it happens because of uploading illegal content but I know of two people that have lost their steam account for other reasons.

[road runner 4344]

2 minutes ago, rksl-rock said:

 

 

If you breach the Steam Agreement in anyway you can have you account suspended.  I couldnt tell you how often it happens because of uploading illegal content but I know of two people that have lost their steam account for other reasons.

But  surely  that would be a decision Valve would have to take, and not one that BI can undertake ? as I said, look at all the Life games that are so obvious in breaking t's and c's and they're still up and running, no accounts suspended there, they even have servers you have to pay to play on, loaded with ported content, and Valve/Steam does not act.

Like I have said, this purge appears to be very selective, how is it possible for BI to be omnipresent and actually Police their product so that their Ts and C's are no breached by the various addons?

How does Valve distinguish between blatant agreement breaking, and those who are unaware they're doing it, because lets face it, 95% of purchasers can't be arsed reading the fine print first, it's more about getting the product up and running.

Do the general public really give a toss as to where the addon came from, or whether the contents are ported or not? I'd be willing to say it's only a small minority, who would feel that doing so is wrong, and take strong measures and stances against such content.

Playing devils advocate here, what actual harm is being done to those who feel aggrieved that it's wrong? I know many people break the speed limit, it doesn't make me want to report them for doing so. That being said, if they're being reckless and a danger to myself, or others, I'd perhaps be inclined to report them.

So the point here is the rule of law cannot be selective, you either enforce it in its entirity, or you don't enforce it at all, but then have to enforce it when there's enough complaints being submitted.

I dislike the Lifer gamers, but that doesn't mean I should have some morale crusade against them, they're not doing anything to me, they're unfortunately paying customers too, if they chose to use my addons without permission, at the end of the day, does it have any significant impact on me, or my life? ... not really, and I'm not going to go around chasing addons looking for my stuff either, as much as it's against the steam rules, it happens.... daily. 

It's all about the end game, what's the reason BI have suddenly become so interested in slamming some addons, and allowing others to get a free pass?

If you're the sort of guy who isn't a BI employee, who trolls through countless addons looking for infringements and content that breaks the steam agreement, I'd be more inclined to say to that person, get a life... preferably not an Altis one!!

[kremator 1065]

7 minutes ago, road runner said:

If you're the sort of guy who isn't a BI employee, who trolls through countless addons looking for infringements and content that breaks the steam agreement, I'd be more inclined to say to that person, get a life... preferably not an Altis one!!

Quote of the dayTM

[rksl-rock 1301]

On 20/04/2017 at 8:12 PM, road runner said:

But  surely  that would be a decision Valve would have to take, and not one that BI can undertake ? as I said, look at all the Life games that are so obvious in breaking t's and c's and they're still up and running, no accounts suspended there, they even have servers you have to pay to play on, loaded with ported content, and Valve/Steam does not act.

Like I have said, this purge appears to be very selective, how is it possible for BI to be omnipresent and actually Police their product so that their Ts and C's are no breached by the various addons?

How does Valve distinguish between blatant agreement breaking, and those who are unaware they're doing it, because lets face it, 95% of purchasers can't be arsed reading the fine print first, it's more about getting the product up and running.

Do the general public really give a toss as to where the addon came from, or whether the contents are ported or not? I'd be willing to say it's only a small minority, who would feel that doing so is wrong, and take strong measures and stances against such content.

Playing devils advocate here, what actual harm is being done to those who feel aggrieved that it's wrong? I know many people break the speed limit, it doesn't make me want to report them for doing so. That being said, if they're being reckless and a danger to myself, or others, I'd perhaps be inclined to report them.

So the point here is the rule of law cannot be selective, you either enforce it in its entirity, or you don't enforce it at all, but then have to enforce it when there's enough complaints being submitted.

I dislike the Lifer gamers, but that doesn't mean I should have some morale crusade against them, they're not doing anything to me, they're unfortunately paying customers too, if they chose to use my addons without permission, at the end of the day, does it have any significant impact on me, or my life? ... not really, and I'm not going to go around chasing addons looking for my stuff either, as much as it's against the steam rules, it happens.... daily. 

It's all about the end game, what's the reason BI have suddenly become so interested in slamming some addons, and allowing others to get a free pass?

If you're the sort of guy who isn't a BI employee, who trolls through countless addons looking for infringements and content that breaks the steam agreement, I'd be more inclined to say to that person, get a life... preferably not an Altis one!!

You'd have to ask BI about the mechanics of their agreement with Valve/Steam but BI staffers do moderate the ArmA related channels.

 

The selective nature of the purge is probably due to reported content.  I cant imagine its random and as you say, if someone from BIS is going through there Workshop looking for infringments they probably a) get off on that kinda thing.  Or b) need to get out more.  

 

RE: The Rule of Law.  BIS/Valve cant police everything without community support.  So unless "we" tell them its illegal they simply dont know.

 

As for "what harm is being done".

Scenerio 1 - Uploading someone else mod.

Alot of people dont see any harm in this because they arent looking at it from the addon makers point of view.  Only their own selfish side.  There are many reasons to use Steam Workshop there are also many reasons NOT to use it.  Its the authors decision.  But the main logical objections are:

1. Support and Updates - The author loses the ability to update the mod.  Which causes support issues and frequently causes friction when people come looking for support and the author is working with ver 10.1 and the user is using 7.3 because he used the "illegal" upload.  
2. Unauthorised Ports/Changes - I had loads of problems with this in ArmA2 and it completely demotivated me.  Someone "fixes" your addon and reuploads it either as your addon or their own.  But it uses your class names and other IP.  The problem is when it gets used with the genuine addon in MP it causes crashes.  We had this issue with a certain British game unit...who then went on to slag RKSL off for making "shit addons" and it was caused by their own ports.  This went on for over a year before I found out what they had done.  In the mean time I'd been so demotivated I went underground and only made private mods.  I know atleast 6 others that have done the same.  Which is a huge loss to the comunity.
3. Stealing Content & Leeching of Credit - There are people out there that are stealing other people's addons and IP and rebranding it.  You can see that with Robert Hammers stuff thats been linked above. Pufu will give you a tonne of examples of people abusing RHS's releases.  Eventually all this does is kill motivation of the real modders which only damages the community.  And reduces the pool of content theives can steal...so they really only hurt themselves in the long run.

Scenerio 2 - Stolen Ported Content from other games.

You'll hear models called "assets".  As a former commercial 3D content developer I built a business on making models for Film/TV and Simulation.  Each of these models represents hundreds if not thousands of hours in developement.  So for me as a business these models have a significant cash value.  They are my only assets that i used to make money, pay my staff and pay my own bills. They are the basis of my income.

 

Now people steal this content from my games/customers/platforms, they upload it to steam, turbosquid and a 1001 3d model sites.  I get no return from that.  Other people use my models without my consent for their projects without any return to me. I now see my models appearing in other peoples mods, games etc under other people's names and tags.  So I dont even get credit for them. Because of this phenomenon i got less and less computer game work.  The TV work now uses a lot of "free internet models" so that went almost to zero too.  In the end i was forced to lay off all my staff.

 

Now apply that to Ubisoft, Valve, Crytek and BI.  This "harmless crime" undermines real businesses.  Cost of games you like go up or the company that makes them goes out of business.  Publishers are the ones that makes the real money.  Developers and 3rd party studios really dont make that much and they all start to drop off the map.

 

"But its always going to be possible to steal your content why bother about it?" - A quote from Dwarden

So, we should just accept it?  And by passive acceptance we condone the theft of other people's efforts and Interlectual Property?  The internet is a lawless place but why shouldn't our corner of it try to be decent and do the right thing?

 

Lack of Motivation

In this community we've seen the genuine content creators dwindle to a hand full of teams. In OFP and ArmA eras we had hundreds of addons released every year,  Now, not so much.  Take a look at ArmAholics files its an interesting metric. These days are a large number of teams using ports from Arma1 and 2 to make mods. Few people are making new models. There are probably less than 15 groups that are making 100% genuine content now.  The rest are using stuff ported and modifed from other games.  Flight Sim, Counterstrike etc. From my group of friends that having been moding since 2002-7 most simply dont make public content anymore.  A major reason for that is too many people think its acceptable to steal content and take the shortcut to "fame" and now money (Life servers, commissioned mods - lot of models are being sold under the table).  To some, the only way to get ahead is cheat the system.  

 

TLDR?

You asked the question "what actual harm is being done to those who feel aggrieved that it's wrong?"

The short answer is its kills motivation to make addons for you to enjoy.  If you want the long answer read the above.

 

Bottom line is unless people are willing to respect the rules and work together to support the community content makers then you will see less and less content released for people to enjoy.  The rules are there to support the businesses and the people that make the content you play with.

 

See something you know is stolen?  Report it.

 

[Macser 776]

I don't necessarily understand the protectiveness some authors have towards their creations. Non-commercial specifically. But even so, that's just my opinion. If someone specifically puts a few restrictions on their stuff, I just think it's the decent thing to do, to abide by it.

 

The "no harm" argument works both ways. Would it really be any harm to just say "fair enough", and move on? Is it really impinging on their freedoms by not having access to a collection of addons? Obstructing the functioning of their daily life? I doubt it. If it's just entertainment , or a hobby, are they really losing much by just letting it go? I don't think it's as innocent as it sometimes looks.

 

Edit:

Regarding the last paragraph. In case there's any misconceptions about who I mean, I'm referring to people uploading or otherwise ignoring restrictions by authors.

 

 

[rksl-rock 1301]

Just now, Macser said:

I don't necessarily understand the protectiveness some authors have towards their creations. Non-commercial specifically. But even so, that's just my opinion. If someone specifically puts a few restrictions on their stuff, I just think it's the decent thing to do, to abide by it.

 

The "no harm" argument works both ways. Would it really be any harm to just say "fair enough", and move on? Is it really impinging on their freedoms by not having access to a collection of addons? Obstructing the functioning of their daily life? I doubt it. If it's just entertainment , or a hobby, are they really losing much by just letting it go? I don't think it's as innocent as it sometimes looks.

I'm curious do you actually make content yourself?  Do you do anything in your life that you are proud of and want to be recognised for?  Skills, helping others, athletics?

 

If you harbour any ambition to get recognised as a 3D artist trust me non-commercial content is really important.  Getting credit for your work is just as important as getting paid.

 

The "no harm" issues - i dont see it that way.  Even if you dont make money you deserve to be recognised for the effort you put in.  

 

And the "Collection of addons" arguments isnt relevant on Steam.  You can create collections without uploading someone else's content.

[Macser 776]

Quote

 

The "no harm" issues - i dont see it that way.  Even if you dont make money you deserve to be recognised for the effort you put in.  

 

And the "Collection of addons" arguments isnt relevant on Steam.  You can create collections without uploading someone else's content.

 

I agree. What did you think I meant? I'm just pointing out that as some think it's no harm to ignore the wishes of the author, it's just as "harmless" and without cost to do the opposite, and abide by what ever restrictions they place on their creations. I don't have to understand the author's reasoning or feel the same way about modding in order to make the decent choice.

 

[PuFu 4600]

3 hours ago, road runner said:

But  surely  that would be a decision Valve would have to take, and not one that BI can undertake ? as I said, look at all the Life games that are so obvious in breaking t's and c's and they're still up and running, no accounts suspended there, they even have servers you have to pay to play on, loaded with ported content, and Valve/Steam does not act.

i have yet to see a single account being suspended by valve for uploading shit they don't own on SW, be it for Arma or something else

 

Quote

Like I have said, this purge appears to be very selective, how is it possible for BI to be omnipresent and actually Police their product so that their Ts and C's are no breached by the various addons?

but BI is not omnipresent...i am not saying that they are not helping, dwarden did help quite a bit by slamming the ones that needed to, but he always had to be pointed into the right direction, which is precisely what i have always done, together with DMCAs

 

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How does Valve distinguish between blatant agreement breaking, and those who are unaware they're doing it, because lets face it, 95% of purchasers can't be arsed reading the fine print first, it's more about getting the product up and running.

Valve doesn't and they shouldn't even care. For a DMCA, valve required me to provide proof of ownership for the contend that i reported. Did that a single time, the rest of the times it was taken down without having any sort of email communication with them. I am sorry, but by not reading the EULA, or the law, or the whatever, it doesn't actually mean it will not apply to you...

 

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Do the general public really give a toss as to where the addon came from, or whether the contents are ported or not? I'd be willing to say it's only a small minority, who would feel that doing so is wrong, and take strong measures and stances against such content.

nope, the general public couldn't care less, but to be honest i personally care even less about what the general population cares about.

Some authors choose not to enforce their IPs, some choose to do just that. They are all withing their rights to do so.

 

Quote

Playing devils advocate here, what actual harm is being done to those who feel aggrieved that it's wrong? I know many people break the speed limit, it doesn't make me want to report them for doing so. That being said, if they're being reckless and a danger to myself, or others, I'd perhaps be inclined to report them.

I have never policed anything that i don't have an IP rights for. Sure, i did contact people i knew they own it if i found it by mistake, but never went full troll mode to search everyone that side-stepped, maybe because over 70% of the content on SW is re-uploads, or "collections" for various communities. I also know of not a single soul that went out to check everything out. I am pretty sure BI didn't do it either all by themselves, much rather got reports from various sources about it.

 

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So the point here is the rule of law cannot be selective, you either enforce it in its entirity, or you don't enforce it at all, but then have to enforce it when there's enough complaints being submitted.

yes and, do you happen to know that the current SW sweap was random and partisan to some addons over others?

 

Quote

I dislike the Lifer gamers, but that doesn't mean I should have some morale crusade against them, they're not doing anything to me, they're unfortunately paying customers too, if they chose to use my addons without permission, at the end of the day, does it have any significant impact on me, or my life? ... not really, and I'm not going to go around chasing addons looking for my stuff either, as much as it's against the steam rules, it happens.... daily. 

well, again you as a addon maker can choose to do whatever you feel like with your addons, just as i can choose to use the ban hammer on the offenders (be it the poor sods who are making real money out of it, or the noobs that consider SW "convenient" because they can't be arsed to read the agreements, or because "noob friends".

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It's all about the end game, what's the reason BI have suddenly become so interested in slamming some addons, and allowing others to get a free pass?

this is just your own supposition. Just because you haven't seen BI slamming addons so far it doesn't mean it didn't happen. And believe me, it always happened. Maybe in the mean time, some other also woke up and actually started to contact both BI and Valve about the ongoing theft....
 

Quote

If you're the sort of guy who isn't a BI employee, who trolls through countless addons looking for infringements and content that breaks the steam agreement, I'd be more inclined to say to that person, get a life... preferably not an Altis one!!

 

i really doubt there is such a person, especially since there are ways to do it without manually searching each entry

[road runner 4344]

Some very well thought out, and written answers, very much appreciated, please don't assume or presume I'm also in the don't give a fuck category, short of reporting offending addons, normally associated with addon makers, whom I've personally interacted with over the years, there's nothing more can be done, I'm not going to lose sleep over it, and get annoyed, it's never going to stop. 

 

I've always said that steam workshop is the ugly side of addon hosting, how many addons have had their name altered to simply bypass the take downs? a few? a few hundred ? a few thousand?

The report system is the only method available, the rest is down to Valve to do their due diligence, and the general public to simply not download them ( That's never going to happen)

The whole world is full of counterfeit items, stolen items, and as long as there's people willing to buy/use/download, the issue will never be resolved.

I see this all the time in Thailand, fake gear and pirated DVD's and software galore, the general public are fully aware it's hookey gear, it doesn't stop them from buying the latest movies and software just released for a handful of baht.

 

[Mynock 244]

Sounds like I'm in the extreme minority here because I send full on request to even de-.pbo someone's mission if I wanted to learn how they accomplished something in a script. Not even talking about using whatever was in their mission, I'm saying before I even think about de-.pbo'ing a mission I send the mission maker(s) a formal request asking for permission to look at the mission files. Same reason I started adding "read me's" to any mission I release publicly because I know people are going to go rooting around without asking me. My missions are complete garbage so they aren't going to find anything all that secret or useful in my mission files anyway, but I hope it will encourage people to at least think about asking before de-.pbo'ing other people's missions in the future. Same goes for mods I guess, because those can be de-.pbo'd from what I understand, although I've not tried because mod making is way over my head.

[PuFu 4600]

3 hours ago, road runner said:

Some very well thought out, and written answers, very much appreciated, please don't assume or presume I'm also in the don't give a fuck category, short of reporting offending addons, normally associated with addon makers, whom I've personally interacted with over the years, there's nothing more can be done, I'm not going to lose sleep over it, and get annoyed, it's never going to stop. 

yeah well, the "you" in my reply was more of a generic "you" than a direct one (as in you road runner)

[road runner 4344]

2 hours ago, PuFu said:

yeah well, the "you" in my reply was more of a generic "you" than a direct one (as in you road runner)

Yeah, I never took it to mean me personally, so no worries, I figured it was a generic expression.

[Auss 208]

Interesting discussion, how do I go about removing stuff like this?

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=843848832&searchtext=australia

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=879856246&searchtext=australia

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=844418062&searchtext=australia

 

I have given permisison to one group, the underbelly crew who actually asked, the rest have just uploaded.

[Dwarden 1125]

report button (flag icon) , right side under the image/video of the workshop-item

 

describe in depth what's wrong, why etc.

[teabagginpeople 398]

Couldn't steam simply give the mod makers themselves the ability to add an approval notification on mods being displayed on workshop. 

 

It would clearly separate the re uploads from authentic ones And give mods at least some representation of themselves over  their work. 

 

People downloading would then be made aware they are downloading from a mod maker apporved uploader.

 

As it is now you look for a mod and a bunch of the same ones pop up with no real visual indication of what is a re upload.

 

[Greenfist 1863]

37 minutes ago, teabagginpeople said:

Couldn't steam simply give the mod makers themselves the ability to add an approval notification on mods being displayed on workshop. 

 

It would clearly separate the re uploads from authentic ones And give mods at least some representation of themselves over  their work. 

 

People downloading would then be made aware they are downloading from a mod maker apporved uploader.

 

As it is now you look for a mod and a bunch of the same ones pop up with no real visual indication of what is a re upload.

 

How would that work exactly? When you're submitting a mod, Steam asks you "If you are uploading content you don't have right to upload, please insert all the original authors' Steam names here to notify them. Your content will not be published until all the rightsholders have approved your contribution."

[[evo] dan 79]

I thought the steam workshop collections feature was supposed to have been created to make life easier to create a "pack" on the workshop. Or at least that's what I did for my clan, go check it out at [EVO] Clan mod collection. It allows us to keep all our mods up to date easily and if you've subscribed to the list you know you have all the mods.

 

I think it could do with a button though to subscribe to any added mods so you don't manually have to back to the collection if an extra mod was added to the list.

[Auss 208]

Folks watchout for this person He's taken numerous buildings off the Australia map and most likely other assets from other maps, He's seems to think its ok to add stuff then ask permission. 

 

 

 

[eagledude4 3]

I can't even tell you how many times I've had difficulty finding an official mod because I had to dig through all of the re-uploads

 

@Auss That RIB SOSAY guy's a tool. He asks for permission AFTER he rips the buildings from your map and then pretends that its okay because you used harsh words.

 

I think its funny that anyone who comes out against his theft is "Salty" https://i.gyazo.com/80920746d5e26a712b357838f14022e4.png

[teabagginpeople 398]

1 hour ago, Greenfist said:

How would that work exactly? When you're submitting a mod, Steam asks you "If you are uploading content you don't have right to upload, please insert all the original authors' Steam names here to notify them. Your content will not be published until all the rightsholders have approved your contribution."

A mod maker uploads his mod getting their approval notification from steam, letting all know they're author of the mod. first step.

 

anytime someone wants to use this approved mod in a pack they have to first get in touch with mod maker (as it should be done). if mod maker agrees . the person making the mod pack sends a newly used steam workshop verification email to mod maker.  mod maker accepts and approval notification is added to the authorised mod pack. cuts out all the bullshitter re uploads. anything without approval is not be up there in the first place. 

 

[eagledude4 3]

@teabagginpeople that's a great idea, but it would require a whole rebuild of the workshop, which valve likely won't do. Also, you're concept will not prevent the re-uploads, but will make the 

[Dwarden 1125]

it would not work, the offender just need take files apart one by one then repack them and your system is in ruins ...

 

seen that happen many times already ... 

 

 

[teabagginpeople 398]

22 minutes ago, dwarden said:

it would not work, the offender just need take files apart one by one then repack them and your system is in ruins ...

 

seen that happen many times already ... 

 

 

I do not doubt this Dwarden. but as it is now there is hardly anything to stop the spam. I would look at the people involved.. I'd put money a huge percentage of the re-uploads are from lazy sobs. too lazy to bother being polite and just ask permission as it is now . you could bet most likely too lazy to do you what you pointed out. 

 yes you will have numbers that will go to the trouble. but you just made another hill to climb(the wall just got 10 ft taller :DDD) . more hassle and with less spam makes them even more visible. 

 

[Dedmen 2714]

1 hour ago, teabagginpeople said:

A mod maker uploads his mod getting their approval notification from steam, letting all know they're author of the mod. first step.

 

anytime someone wants to use this approved mod in a pack they have to first get in touch with mod maker (as it should be done). if mod maker agrees . the person making the mod pack sends a newly used steam workshop verification email to mod maker.  mod maker accepts and approval notification is added to the authorised mod pack. cuts out all the bullshitter re uploads. anything without approval is not be up there in the first place. 

 

You don't need to include other Peoples Mods in your Workshop Item as a Modpack. Modpacks are Collections on Steam. You subscribe to a collection which subscribes to a bunch of Items. So no need to ask anyone about any Permission. You just put their Item into your collection.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=844418062&searchtext=australia
 

The Feedback from the Author in the comment tells us exactly what most People think.

[kremator 1065]

4 hours ago, Auss said:

Folks watchout for this person He's taken numerous buildings off the Australia map and most likely other assets from other maps, He's seems to think its ok to add stuff then ask permission. 

 

 

 

What pisses me off is that this guy actually says he's using someone's stuff that had been modified.  That, my friend, is you using someone elses work !  How come he doesn't get it ?