Re-uploading mods on the workshop

[road runner 4344]

so.... you can create an addon that uses BI IP and copyright etc , and publish as your own creation, but you can you claim having IP rights to that said addon?

Isn't that a bit like buying a jigsaw, and then after you put it altogether, sell it as a completed work of art?

How does that work when you mix various packs together, that were created by other people, etc? whilst also using vanilla parts, I'm guessing that should still be a big no no, unless they've expressly given permission for their work to be used? 

I still see lots off addon's that are using ported parts and models, and have not been touched by BI, and I'm not going to point those out, the people who know those, I'm also willing bet also know this, but their popularity is significant enough for that "blind eye to be turned"

This is why I've been saying the ban hammer on some addons had been "selective" either it's an across the board action or it's step back and turn blind eyes, it's like HSE Laws, you either enforce them all, or you don't enforce any, you cannot pick and chose what ones to follow.

And even when those habitual offenders keep re-uploading, all they'll do is make it available to a closed list, and unless you're in that circle, how do you police it?

[rksl-rock 1300]

29 minutes ago, road runner said:

so.... you can create an addon that uses BI IP and copyright etc , and publish as your own creation, but you can you claim having IP rights to that said addon?

Isn't that a bit like buying a jigsaw, and then after you put it altogether, sell it as a completed work of art?

How does that work when you mix various packs together, that were created by other people, etc? whilst also using vanilla parts, I'm guessing that should still be a big no no, unless they've expressly given permission for their work to be used? 

I still see lots off addon's that are using ported parts and models, and have not been touched by BI, and I'm not going to point those out, the people who know those, I'm also willing bet also know this, but their popularity is significant enough for that "blind eye to be turned"

This is why I've been saying the ban hammer on some addons had been "selective" either it's an across the board action or it's step back and turn blind eyes, it's like HSE Laws, you either enforce them all, or you don't enforce any, you cannot pick and chose what ones to follow.

And even when those habitual offenders keep re-uploading, all they'll do is make it available to a closed list, and unless you're in that circle, how do you police it?

I know its a bit counter intuitive. But as long as you have the appropriate authorisation to use donated/licensed content it is actually legal.  In this scenerio, you don't actually own all the rights you share them.  Unless the donator actually deeds you all the rights, essentially handing over ownership of that content.  As with all things legal it depends on the actual agreement you have with the donated content.

 

Eg:  ArmA3: Helo DLC.   RotorLib is a licensed component of ArmA3 now.  Do BIS own it now?  Nope, Its just a Jigsaw framed as Art.  

 

I do know what you mean, quite a few people that use non-BIS content.  I also know for a fact quite a few have email permission to use content however they want as long as the original author is credited (I helpded negoiate some deals - often a trade of content).  But like you i can think of a few people that have donated content but I've no idea what that original agreements were.  So Steam/BIS can do very little here until the original author comes to challenge the Uploader.  Its less of a "blind eye", more of limited proof.  Technically only the Original Author can request a DMCA takedown.  The best way to combat this is either make BIS aware of your concerns with some proof.  Or contact that author directly, let them deal with it.  

 

As for habitual uploaders, keep flagging them.  Eventually Steam and BIS will have to deal with them somehow.

[road runner 4344]

Thanks, rksl-rock, some very good information in all your posts, very constructive, and appreciated, if only the offenders felt as passionate as you, life within arma would be great :D 

[rksl-rock 1300]

On 01/05/2017 at 8:48 AM, road runner said:

Thanks, rksl-rock, some very good information in all your posts, very constructive, and appreciated, if only the offenders felt as passionate as you, life within arma would be great :D 

When you spend thousands of hours making content for others to enjoy and someone denies you the Credit for that effort by stealing or abusing your work.  It cuts quite deep.

 

Most people are ignorant to their rights.  Some just don't care, so to my mind, the more the topic gets discussed and awareness increases the better things get.  And if people actually just talked to each other, asked how things worked before ripping people's work apart we might actually have a nicer friendly community to work and play in.

 

But hey, I'm apparently an unrealistic idealist according to some :)

[Venger__ 2]

If I was a mod creator, I would want as many people to upload and share it as possible and get my work out there. Of course, those who really care will find a way to find the author's website or steam and get the latest version if they want to, but a mod is free material that should be shared and the more sharing, the more recognition for the creator :) having said that, if an author does request for their work to be taken down, there should be no ifs or buts.

[Macser 776]

Yeah, ye see that's the issue. Putting it up in the first place. What you or I would like doesn't really factor into it. If you want to put your stuff out there and let it get shared around or edited that's great. I don't think you'd find anyone willing to knock that approach. But just because you, I or half the internet share a particular point of view, doesn't automatically mean that it applies to everyone else. Or even that it should. 

 

A lot of folks are perfectly ok with ignoring terms and conditions applied to digital content. So it's not hard to develop confirmation bias when you frequent places where it's the norm. But simply having a lot of people agreeing on a point of view doesn't make it inherently good. 

 

It's really not that hard to avoid this issue. And if people are doing it, while aware of any restrictions then they're willfully choosing to do so. It's a conscious decision. They're going out of their way to do something they know is pissing someone else off. That says a lot more about them, than the modder. These muppets either don't know or care what effect it might have on the rest of the community. Once the ratio of gits to decent folk goes past a certain point you may get authors locking down what they put out there.

 

There should be no illusions, a dedicated modder isn't necesarily going to stop doing what they love. So they aren't the ones who would be most affected by any falloff in releases.

 

Modders do actually use their own stuff too. Recognition is nice. But it isn't foremost in the minds of every modder. Often they're creating things they want to see in game. 

[rksl-rock 1300]

10 hours ago, Venger__ said:

If I was a mod creator, I would want as many people to upload and share it as possible and get my work out there. Of course, those who really care will find a way to find the author's website or steam and get the latest version if they want to, but a mod is free material that should be shared and the more sharing, the more recognition for the creator :) having said that, if an author does request for their work to be taken down, there should be no ifs or buts.

 

You are missing the point about the re-uploader agreeing to a legally binding contract without the actual owners consent.

 

Distribution is a great idea but Steam workshop comes with the clause about handing over rights to IP.  Which if you dont own them you cannot do.

 

 

[chortles 263]

Re: the "you'll never win because there's too many other possible upload locations" argument: that file-sharing could be done by various alternate routes does not negate modders' vested interest in "cracking down on it happening at the most important location" -- that is to say, 'most important' due to the particular role of Steam Workshop these days.

[kiory 404]

I wonder, not sure if anyone has thought of this, just a spur of the moment kind of thing.

 

What if BI were to get their BIKEY system synced with Steam somehow, only allowing authors of the original BIKEY to upload to their personal workshop through the addon publisher, a BIKEY that's authorized by one computer, or password, anything like that could stop this, surely?

 

Don't have the original computer or password to upload to the workshop? Tough shit, move along kiddies.

Now, obviously there's more problems if it was linked to a particular computer, if you re installed for example, passwords may probably be a better way to go.

 

Honestly, I'm surprised that password associated BIKEY's haven't been a thing at all.

 

:EDIT: 

 

There's also one huge benefit to doing this, content creators are forced to sign their addons, it's a win win for a everyone, except for the thieves, which is ideal.

[Flax 397]

40 minutes ago, kiory said:

I wonder, not sure if anyone has thought of this, just a spur of the moment kind of thing.

 

What if BI were to get their BIKEY system synced with Steam somehow, only allowing authors of the original BIKEY to upload to their personal workshop through the addon publisher, a BIKEY that's authorized by one computer, or password, anything like that could stop this, surely?

 

Don't have the original computer or password to upload to the workshop? Tough shit, move along kiddies.

Now, obviously there's more problems if it was linked to a particular computer, if you re installed for example, passwords may probably be a better way to go.

 

Honestly, I'm surprised that password associated BIKEY's haven't been a thing at all.

 

:EDIT: 

 

There's also one huge benefit to doing this, content creators are forced to sign their addons, it's a win win for a everyone, except for the thieves, which is ideal.

 

 

 

Great idea but perhaps take it a step further and add an "Obfuscate PBO" option in Addon Builder. You could even add it as an option so people who want to have their addon open can, the people who want it closed and protect can have that too. Obfuscating the PBO's would also mean that people couldn't extract the PBO and rebuild it with their own Private BIKEYS and then reupload.

[kiory 404]

41 minutes ago, Flax said:

 

Great idea but perhaps take it a step further and add an "Obfuscate PBO" option in Addon Builder. You could even add it as an option so people who want to have their addon open can, the people who want it closed and protect can have that too. Obfuscating the PBO's would also mean that people couldn't extract the PBO and rebuild it with their own Private BIKEYS and then reupload.

 

I'm not sure if it's a 100%, but Mikero's tools already do this, and they are by far more reliable than BI's tools and well worth their weight in gold.

 

I think with both in conjuction, Password associated BIKEYS and encrypted PBO's (if the content creator so chooses to use them) is a great idea, perhaps starting a petition to get BI's attention might be the best course of action, I'm not sure if anything would get done, but this is a pretty solid idea, even if I do say so myself.

[Flax 397]

15 minutes ago, kiory said:

 

I'm not sure if it's a 100%, but Mikero's tools already do this, and they are by far more reliable than BI's tools and well worth their weight in gold.

 

I think with both in conjuction, Password associated BIKEYS and encrypted PBO's (if the content creator so chooses to use them) is a great idea, perhaps starting a petition to get BI's attention might be the best course of action, I'm not sure if anything would get done, but this is a pretty solid idea, even if I do say so myself.

 

 

Yea you can, PBO Project has the option and works very well. Agreed would definitely be a great solution. Would need a lot of buy-in from the DevOps guys at BI to make it happen.

[Dwarden 1124]

as explained many times before, bikey can be made by anyone, pbo too, repacked ones too

if game can read encypted files, so can the malicious intending users, d3d/ogl rippers do exist also

so while it's nice idea it will be lot of effort with zero gains as it will be broken apart as long as it's all documented fileformats

don't get me started about the 'other party service delays to implement <something> unusual'

[kiory 404]

10 hours ago, dwarden said:

as explained many times before, bikey can be made by anyone, pbo too, repacked ones too

if game can read encypted files, so can the malicious intending users, d3d/ogl rippers do exist also

so while it's nice idea it will be lot of effort with zero gains as it will be broken apart as long as it's all documented fileformats

don't get me started about the 'other party service delays to implement <something> unusual'

Forgive me, but that isn't satisfactory.

Arma would not be where it is today without the many great and talented mod makers out there, many of who have moved on due to crap like this, but it's ok isn't it? You all get paid so it's not a big deal. Don't you guys think at the very least you owe it to us to just... try... something?

 

I understand where you're coming from, but let's be real here, BI's "effort" isn't the best, a sentiment which is echoed through the entire community. Their tools are a mess and I have to rely on Third Party tools to get my work done, as well as many others. Those Third Party tools HAVE obfuscation capabilities.

 

Now tell me, which party has put in effort there, at least given it a shot, BI or the Third Party? As far as I'm concerned, you need to be paying this guy a salary, we all know who I'm talking about.

 

Please, try harder, BI's current efforts aren't good enough, and in terms of preventing things like this happening, non existant, so clearly no effort has been made.

[Dwarden 1124]

obfuscated content isn't encrypted ...

the point is that the same 'methods used for protect' are already used to cover the tracks of abusers ...

and if it was extremely well encrypted ... forget about any way to figure it out ...

 

 

[rksl-rock 1300]

Just now, dwarden said:

obfuscated content isn't encrypted ...

the point is that the same 'methods used for protect' are already used to cover the tracks of abusers ...

and if it was extremely well encrypted ... forget about any way to figure it out ...

 

 

..and if it was encrypted in the first place it would be harder to steal content to begin with.  Detering all but the most determined thief.

 

It is true there are other ways to steal model etc but why make it easy?  You lock your doors defore leaving the house don't you?

 

And BIS use .EBO files...so if not for protection what is that used for?

[roberthammer 582]

ArmA in the future will need some official way to encrypt/lock the addon , not just because of thiefs but also something against those guys that like to upload stuff that they do not own 

[Dwarden 1124]

 

3 hours ago, rksl-rock said:

..and if it was encrypted in the first place it would be harder to steal content to begin with.  Detering all but the most determined thief.

 

It is true there are other ways to steal model etc but why make it easy?  You lock your doors defore leaving the house don't you?

 

And BIS use .EBO files...so if not for protection what is that used for?

 

3 hours ago, roberthammer said:

ArmA in the future will need some official way to encrypt/lock the addon , not just because of thiefs but also something against those guys that like to upload stuff that they do not own 

 

of course such method will benefit unique original content made from scratch

 

yet it's not going to re-solve people uploading stolen stuff from 'elsewhere' (e.g. other games, public domain, free mods, older mods)

 

secure file formats and encryption while being nice in theory but only usable to degree

because the game need to read those on client which means the implementation need to be very well done to last some months/years

 

case of point e,g, EBO wasn't that strong as history proved ... and any games file formats to date ...

 

[kiory 404]

We understand the situation, every game that has modding are troubled with these issues, but Arma particularly has it bad, and BI are definitely partly to blame with shoddy practices to prevent it from happening, and quite frankly it sounds like you're being very defeatist, which means you're probably speaking for the whole team and their thoughts on the matter.
 

This is about making it as difficult as possible and cracking down on these scumbags, otherwise you'll find that Arma, and potentially future games will become relics with bitter memories.

 

As for content coming in from other games and other illegitimate assets, that's what you call Quality Assurance, you regulate the market, make sure nothing nefarious is going on, DAZ does it, Valve do it, Turbosquid to an extent does their best, BI will definitely need to have a hand in regulating things, otherwise, what's the point of allowing us to place assets on the Workshop in the first place?

[rksl-rock 1300]

1 hour ago, dwarden said:

 

 

 

of course such method will benefit unique original content made from scratch

 

yet it's not going to re-solve people uploading stolen stuff from 'elsewhere' (e.g. other games, public domain, free mods, older mods)

 

secure file formats and encryption while being nice in theory but only usable to degree

because the game need to read those on client which means the implementation need to be very well done to last some months/years

 

case of point e,g, EBO wasn't that strong as history proved ... and any games file formats to date ...

 

 

No encryption doesn't resolve the Workshop uploading issue and it never will.   The locks on your house, your windows arent that strong... so why bother locking them?  Simply because you want to make it harder for someone to steal your possessions.  I challenge you to leave your doors and windows open from today onwards.  Lets see how long it takes for your possessions to walk away.  

 

What will resolve the uploading issue is awareness and a strong hand in enforcing a clear IP policy.  It will never stamp it out of course.  But awareness, proper enforcement and real penalties will send a stronger message to the wider community about what is and is not acceptable.  The current "why bother, you'll never stop it" message we constantly hear from you and some others certainly isnt helping is it.

 

While I wouldnt use Kiory's phrase of "shoddy practices" I do agree with his sentiment.  I can't tell you how many times i hear the cry of "BIS dont care" when I've challenged people stealing mine or my friends arma mods.  In my opionion BIS need to make their policy on IP abuse loud and clear.  Over the years I've had masses of quotes from you thrown at me to justify/defend outright theft; about how its impossible to stop this so why am i bothering.  That really is the message you are sending everytime you post "Why bother...etc"  You really do need to change that tone. Because thats what some people think BIS actually thinks.  Not just you.

[road runner 4344]

BIS cared enough when there was a tool that encrypted pbo's into EBO's and then decrypted them, but because it wasn't made by Mikero, the guy who made it had all his youtube content shut down with a DMCA. 

What he did was prove that Mikero's obfuscation tool could be deobfuscated with a hex editor, perhaps it was the right thing to do shutting him down, but it also looked like they or more to the point a certain individual didn't like the competition, and all that happens, is these tools just end up going underground, and if you know the right people, it can be obtained, apparently with ease according to another source on here.

All one needs to do is look at the first half a dozen pages on A3 steam, and you will still find uploaded content, done without the owners consent, there's still mods using 3rd party models that have been "overlooked" which clearly breach steams terms and conditions.

The whole "This item is no longer compatible with Arma 3" looks like it's slowed down to a halt.

[Dwarden 1124]

@rksl-rock you do realize we do care and i do care ?

who you think is taking down the stolen content for last decade ...

 

it would be too easy if encrypted files would solve the the basic problem of people stealing other people work in first place ...

i've yet to see that to work

 

sure, at some point it will happen (hardware got fast enough to not lose cycles on it) but those who will try break rules will find way ...

but i mentioned that before the whole engine must be built around that and not the other way around ...

[warden_1 1070]

Add something about uploading stolen stuff to the A3 workshop into your EULA and use BattlEye bans to solve repeat offenders. I guarantee you people will learn quickly.

[rksl-rock 1300]

1 hour ago, dwarden said:

@rksl-rock you do realize we do care and i do care ?

who you think is taking down the stolen content for last decade ...

 

it's just somewhat naive to think encrypted files will solve the the basic problem of people stealing other people work in first place ...

i've yet to see that to work

I realise BIS does care.  

 

You. I’m not so convinced. I do concede you do take action, that is part of your job I believe. But I've also heard you frequently talk about why we shouldn’t bother to fight. How we should expect our stuff to be stolen. How we are just wasting our time etc. And as I've frequently said in reply to this negative statement; that message simply does not inspire confidence.  And that message is being repeated in the community which makes people think they can get away with theft.

 

Naive or not, encryption is something that people seem to want. We've had this debate many many times. Years ago, I was ambivalent about encryption but now with the level to work required to make decent addons and the commercial value of decent models I'm leaning toward the encryption.  Any extra level of protection whether its encryption or stronger policy enforcement would be welcomed by the majority of creators.

[wld427 1705]

moral of the friggin story..... if its not yours don't upload it. slap em with the ban hammer.