Dynamic Vehicle Loadouts feedback

[Alwarren 2767]

1 minute ago, dragon01 said:

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if BIS will address that. Remember, gunner always had control over all weapons on ArmA helos. Even when it didn't make sense, like with rockets and fixed guns. 

 

Yeah, and that's what scares me :|

[dragon01 902]

Honestly, I always used manual fire to gain control of everything. Actual release of ATGMs can just as well be handled by the pilot (for most part, it is anyway, as the AI won't fire ATGMs on its own). The gunner should handle targeting/guidance for ATGMs and turret-mounted guns.

 

Of course, it's probably a different matter in multiplayer. Still, I think that giving all pylon-mounted weapons to the pilot would be the best solution. The gunner would have the gun and the designator (neither of which are subject to customization). Given how the current system works, I doubt that assigning weapons to either gunner or pilot on a per-weapon basis is feasible, especially at this point.

[petek 62]

57 minutes ago, Alwarren said:

I am currently working on the dynamic loadouts for the CUP, and I think there is something that might not be possible in the current system.

The Little Bird's outer pylons, or the Apache's pylons, can take a variety of pods, including but not limited to

• Hydra launcher
• Hellfire Rack
• Stinger Pod

Sounds great mate - good mix and hope you get the answers you need.

I was kind of hoping BIS might have implemented using Titans (both AA and AT) for the smaller helos as a stand-in for Stingers and Hellfires.

 

cheers

[chortles 263]

2 hours ago, Nightmare515 said:

KH-3A Fenghuang with dynamic loadouts ever gonna happen?

Don't stop there, I want the manned CSAT aircraft to get access to the Jian ATGM now that it's got differing stats from the Macer/Macer II and Sharur/Kh-25!

[petek 62]

7 minutes ago, chortles said:

Don't stop there, I want the manned CSAT aircraft to get access to the Jian ATGM now that it's got differing stats from the Macer/Macer II and Sharur/Kh-25!

I'm still hoping for weapons for the Ceaser - I've messed around with just "addweapon" etc... and it's a lot of fun with hacked .50cals and DARs ;-)

[ivan keska 45]

I wish we'd get some loadout options for ground vehicles, thus we can change the ammo load out or even change the weapons a bit. So an offroad for example could be changed to use a mounted zafar, lnyx, and such. Which gives players more options in missions and also that's not an unrealistic thing.

 

As for the current system as is, i think it's pretty good. But for the helis, we should be allowed to add or remove the machine guns. Since it would be nice to customize them a bit more, thus we can have a pawnee with 1 minigun and 3 extra weapons. or an orca with 2 of those wonderful 6.5 miniguns. Also the gun pod on the AAF jet, I see as kind of the same problem since we can't really do anything with it.

[Alwarren 2767]

10 hours ago, dragon01 said:

Of course, it's probably a different matter in multiplayer. Still, I think that giving all pylon-mounted weapons to the pilot would be the best solution. The gunner would have the gun and the designator (neither of which are subject to customization). Given how the current system works, I doubt that assigning weapons to either gunner or pilot on a per-weapon basis is feasible, especially at this point.

 

It would make the gunner useless except for firing the chain gun. On any airframe without such weapons (Hellcat for example) the gunner would be absolutely useless. This might not be a big issue for singleplayer, but for multiplayer it is.

Frankly, unless this feature is added, I don't see any point in going through all the work of remaking all CUP pod weapons, updating all models etc for to end up with something inferior to the current situation :(

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk
 

 

[dragon01 902]

I do hope something like that is done, but if not, assigning all weapons to the pilot would be better than giving them to the gunner. The gunner could still mark targets and guide the missile (either using SACLOS or the laser marker). Also, the gun is still an important part of the helo's armament, it's not like operating the turret is a small job. Not to mention that without a pilot's TGP (which most helos don't have), it'd still be up to gunner to handle target spotting and selection.

 

In fact, I'd suggest to expand "manual fire" instead of fiddling with weapon assignments, so that:

1. It can be used in multiplayer with a human gunner.

2. It can be used by the gunner to take control of pilot's weapons, as well as the other way around.

This would be fiddly, but it'd allow either gunner or pilot to take control of the pylons. There should be a way to block this functionality on servers where trolling is a major concern (IIRC, this was the reason given by BIS as to why you can't take control from a human gunner).

 

Even if BIS doesn't do it, Firewill has implemented such a "weapon swap" system already, IIRC. If it can be made to work with dynamic loadouts, CUP could use that. Dynamic loadout brings too much to the table to be disregarded.

[Alwarren 2767]

39 minutes ago, dragon01 said:

Even if BIS doesn't do it, Firewill has implemented such a "weapon swap" system already, IIRC. If it can be made to work with dynamic loadouts, CUP could use that. Dynamic loadout brings too much to the table to be disregarded.

 

Agreed, but having to script something just to make the gunner be able to fire weapons is ridiculous, and is not how it should be. And giving the gunner control over fixed weapons that are aimed manually by the pilot didn't ever make any sense either.

 

The setPylonLoadOut command has a turret path in it, so in theory at least it should be technically possible to determine what turret a weapon goes to, but I have heard that the turret is ignored and the pylon's assignment is always used - I will have to check that again.

If the command works, a special init function of the airframe could remove the weapons and re-requip them based on a special config value to assign them to the right owner/controller, but for that, the turret parameter has to work, which I am not certain about. As I said, I'll have to test it. if it does, then that is the way to save this.

[iratus 71]

18 hours ago, dragon01 said:

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if BIS will address that. Remember, gunner always had control over all weapons on ArmA helos. Even when it didn't make sense, like with rockets and fixed guns. 

 

AFAIK the reasoning behind not giving unguided weapons to the pilot is AI controlled helicopters would waste ammo by the pilot and the gunner firing at the same target. And the reasoning behind not having "manual fire" as an option during multiplayer is not wanting players to be able to take away actions from other players. Therefor I see two solutions:

 

A: Implement an option for the gunner to allow the pilot to take over weapons similar to the way a pilot can allow a co-pilot to take over controlls (preferably on a per weapon basis).

or

B: Let mission designers (or pylon setting scriptcommands) define weapon control in the dynamic loadout system. It could be done per pylon with alternate weaons existing, e.g. DAR and DAR (pilot controlled). Or there could be a flag that is unchecked per default, and if checked gives control of all unguided munitions to the pilot (with a tooltip explaining that it should not be checked for AI controlled vehicles).

[dragon01 902]

I don't understand the aversion to players taking away control from other players. As long as it's not abused (and I can't imagine a helo crew which wouldn't cooperate on such things), the ability to decide who controls what would be a boon, not a hindrance.

 

As for AI, there should be restrictions on whether they use guns or rockets based on what they're firing at.

[the_one_and_only_Venator 163]

I wanted to use a Hellcat with Scalpel missiles so I made a little change to it's config. It was actually very easy to designate the missiles to the gunner. It is also very easy to designate specific weapon pylons to the pilot. So every weapon that is mounted onto that pylon is available for the pilot.

The problem with weapons of the helicopters pilots is that they are not really able to lock onto any target. It is just possible with the manual fire and an AI gunner. I think that is a little weird. Seems like only the gunner has access to the vehicles sensors...

[petek 62]

9 minutes ago, the_one_and_only_Venator said:

I wanted to use a Hellcat with Scalpel missiles so I made a little change to it's config. It was actually very easy to designate the missiles to the gunner. It is also very easy to designate specific weapon pylons to the pilot. So every weapon that is mounted onto that pylon is available for the pilot.

The problem with weapons of the helicopters pilots is that they are not really able to lock onto any target. It is just possible with the manual fire and an AI gunner. I think that is a little weird. Seems like only the gunner has access to the vehicles sensors...

Care to share? ;-)

Any chance you've figured out how to assign added weapons to the gunner and not the pilot on the Blackfoot?

 

Thanks for any pointers

[the_one_and_only_Venator 163]

7 hours ago, petek said:

Care to share? ;-)

Any chance you've figured out how to assign added weapons to the gunner and not the pilot on the Blackfoot?

 

Thanks for any pointers

 

Should be the exact same principle for every helicopter. I'll test that for the Blackfoot.

I can send it over to you. I wrote it as a small Mod. Will do it later this day.

 

[petek 62]

2 hours ago, the_one_and_only_Venator said:

 

Should be the exact same principle for every helicopter. I'll test that for the Blackfoot.

I can send it over to you. I wrote it as a small Mod. Will do it later this day.

 

That would be great mate - thanks

[KiTooN 63]

14 hours ago, the_one_and_only_Venator said:

I wanted to use a Hellcat with Scalpel missiles so I made a little change to it's config. It was actually very easy to designate the missiles to the gunner. It is also very easy to designate specific weapon pylons to the pilot. So every weapon that is mounted onto that pylon is available for the pilot.

The problem with weapons of the helicopters pilots is that they are not really able to lock onto any target. It is just possible with the manual fire and an AI gunner. I think that is a little weird. Seems like only the gunner has access to the vehicles sensors...

 

We had to tackle a similar issue in our community some time ago, guided weapons seem to work only for the "primary gunner", defined in the config of the vehicle itself. Specificaly to fire guided missiles by the Hellcat pilot, you'd have to edit the config and make the gunner an observer or something like that. Might be a bug, @oukej ? Guided weapons should work for anyone with sensors right ?

[petek 62]

Thank you BIS!

Very pleased to see the return of ASRAAM and scalpels to the Pawnee, Wildcat and Orca.

 

I'd still love to know how to script so any added weapons can be assigned to the gunner for the Blackfoot etc... as I feel this has encouraged me to "tweak" ;-) also I've been running some tests with 3 Blackfoot v 3 Kajman and the Blackfoot haven't a prayer!

 

Thanks again - I'm sure it's appreciated by more than just me;-)

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Pawnee should also be able to use 20mm pod, but the pod itself needs a retexture cud it's either charred on the top, which is odd and unsat, or it's a shadow texture, which doesn't look good to begin with.

[Hvymtal 1251]

I'm of the opinion that the 20mm pod is out of character for the pawnee. It's a light attack helicopter without much room for armaments. Sure its power/weight is good but strapping two heavy 20mm cannons and all their ammo would have an unacceptable detriment to its performance, and since Arma AFAIK doesn't simulate that it would be unrealistic beyond reason.

 

Also, UI scaling for the menu is still off and I at least still lack scrolling

Screens (small size)

Spoiler

 

 

 

Also affects neophron, buzzard

Considering that this prevents most people from being able to use any pylons towards the bottom (even on very small you still can't change the bottommost pylon on at least the wasp and shikra) this is an unacceptable polish error. Please either add back scrolling or figure out the scaling

[ski2060 167]

I'd vote for scrolling.  That worked just fine.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

51 minutes ago, Hvymtal said:

I'm of the opinion that the 20mm pod is out of character for the pawnee. It's a light attack helicopter without much room for armaments. Sure its power/weight is good but strapping two heavy 20mm cannons and all their ammo would have an unacceptable detriment to its performance, and since Arma AFAIK doesn't simulate that it would be unrealistic beyond reason.

 

Unrealistic for two, yes, but one, no. But l let's not forget, that a rocket pod is probably heavier than a 20mm pod with little ammo, I'm not for certain, I'll do the research in a minute, but judging by the size of the pod, and the size of the rocket pod with rockets with varying number and size, it's not out of scope... not to mention, it's 2035, the AH-9, likely more powerful than the AH-6, in terms of armaverse. =P

[Hvymtal 1251]

The only autocannon the Littlebird can carry is the M230, with a very limited amount of ammo, no miniguns, and one 7-shot launcher with whatever you want in it

 

On the flipside, it's not terribly uncommon for such gun pods to be used on British Lynxes, same goes for Russian helicopters which will even use bombs. As for rocket pods, I'll do the math for you: an LWL-12 is 63lbs unloaded (futuristic DAR pods might be less), DARs are likely the 10lber Hydras @ 8.7lbs, so that's just shy of 170lbs per pod, 340lbs for two

 

An M621 single barrel 20mm gun is almost exactly 100lbs by itself, probably another 20-30lbs for the pod (and that's being very optimistic), and the PGU-28/B ammo that would be used is 3900 grains per shell (casing and propellant included), 300 rounds would be 167.14lbs, totaling 287.14 pounds for one complete gun pod. That's more than the weight of an M261 with 19x 10lb rockets (252 lbs, for reference), and only one of those puts a serious drag on an AH-6M.

 

Add in the double barreled 20mm cannon we have and you're not just taking a piss, you're taking a piss and running with it. Sorry, but I doubt engine technology is going to advance by 2030 to the point that even one of our gun pods would be anything other than the fevered dreams of madmen, especially with the miniguns installed. I'm not rigging it, either, the Rh 202 is 165 lbs, and the Oerlikon KAA L70 is 150lbs, both of which fire bigger, heavier shells. I couldn't get a weight on the HS.820/Oerlikon KAD but I imagine ammo weight would also be prohibitive even if it were about 100lbs

 

Swapping the miniguns out for an M230 though....

[dragon01 902]

I have a small suggestion regarding Scalpel and ASRAAM. Would that be possible to give them a smaller pylon? It's much bigger than the missile itself, and looks a bit strange when installed on AH-9.

 

As for the Plamens, I don't think AH-9 needs those. Orca and Kajman certainly should be able to use them, though. 

[dragon01 902]

Just a heads up, I think I found a bug with ASRAAM and Scalpel. They are too heavy. It's especially apparent on AH-9. The former's real mass is 88kg, while Hellfire is about 48kg. Meanwhile, with two of either, AH-9 can barely fly. Even in the default configuration it's very easy to overload the tail rotor.

[Hvymtal 1251]

DVL UI scaling has now been corrected. Thanks, B01 and BIS, and sorry if I came off as a bit whiny or harsh

 

@dragon01, advanced FM? Regular is fine for me