Jets - Sensor overhaul (Radars, IRs, Lazors, PGMs)

[twistking 204]

hello,

with the small drones now being able to detect footmobiles with their sensors, can we get an optional sensor display for the drone operator, even when he is not actively flying the drone?

 

i'm not on dev branch, but from my understanding, the drone sensor can only be seen, when actively controlling the drone atm!?

 

keep up the good work! really looking forward to the jets dlc release!

[sykocrazy 67]

2 hours ago, pingopete said:

PIP rendering at 8km and 60fps (60 only in first scene with venom with only one render target, the a10 had 3 mirrors RTT targets which brought the performance of the TGP screen way down): 

 

Do you have examples of how it performs in multiplayer? That's where you really see PiP performance drop(and the use case that @nodunit was referring to, i believe).

[pingopete 26]

14 minutes ago, sykocrazy said:

Do you have examples of how it performs in multiplayer? That's where you really see PiP performance drop(and the use case that @nodunit was referring to, i believe).

I can't test this in multiplayer because it requires the use of memory editors which are globally banned. I found from testing that the performance didn't really change much from PIP at the ultra setting. I ran the game for over 25 mins without memory crashes with PIP render distance at 5km with one RTT target.

 

From personal experience I haven't noticed any significant difference in performance between PIP in single and multiplayer

[oukej 2910]

9 hours ago, venthorror said:

Currently "old" CAS jets that are now using new IR sensors are unable to lock AA missiles using only HUD.

Reason for this is that they are using TGP (pointed at the ground) for finding targets.

While I think this "handicap" is a step in the right direction, shouldn't short range AA made for self defense look for targets using their own sensors?

You can actually use the missile's own sensors for target acquisition. The issue is you have to find your target first, point at (with the airplane or freelook; with Falchion-22 the target has to be less than 15° off boresight) and press "T" to mark it. Then you should see just the diamond, without the square brackets. That means missile is tracking the target (while the vehicle sensors have still no idea).
The automatic locking (like Titan AA) for vehicle weapons hasn't been possible, although we've investigated that option.

 

1 hour ago, twistking said:

with the small drones now being able to detect footmobiles with their sensors, can we get an optional sensor display for the drone operator, even when he is not actively flying the drone?

TBD

[HaseDesTodes 62]

i think this is not realy reladed to the sensors itself, but i have been told today and confirmed it myself, that you can lock on slingloaded ground vehicles with Titan AT, Scalpel etc. but not on the helicopter itself.

so i was wondering if this is intention or just an oversight.

i also have noticed, that Titan AT can't lock on ground vehicles that are up in the air without beeing slingloaded (setpos), but scalpel missiles can.

 

next thing i found was, that with a chetah AA i was able lock air vehicles with my radar as soon as they got into range, but the weapon lockon was still dependend on the (object) view distance.

(view distance 12km-> Orca lockon at 4km range; viewdistance 2.5km-> orca lockon 2.5km)

and i thought, that AA tanks should get some UI additions like aircraft have with their hud, so that you can see radar targets in the hud and what target you are locking on to.

 

if any of the described behaviour is unintended, i'll gladly file a (or more) ticket on the feedback tracker.

 

 

[chortles 263]

3 hours ago, HaseDesTodes said:

next thing i found was, that with a chetah AA i was able lock air vehicles with my radar as soon as they got into range, but the weapon lockon was still dependend on the (object) view distance.

(view distance 12km-> Orca lockon at 4km range; viewdistance 2.5km-> orca lockon 2.5km)

Working as designed though not necessarily as intended... TL;DR: the Cheetah's radar is not limited by view distance but their Titan (AA) missiles are, since those missiles have IR sensors.

[HaseDesTodes 62]

10 hours ago, chortles said:

the Cheetah's radar is not limited by view distance but their Titan (AA) missiles are, since those missiles have IR sensors.

 

i would understand this if the view was limited by weather, but in my case it is limited by player (server) settings.

so if a jet pilot has 1km more view distance than me, he could approach, lock and destroy me without any chance i could fire back, even if my missiles would be able to lock him if only i had the same view distance set.

doesn't sound like it should be this way to me.

[snoops_213 75]

17 hours ago, twistking said:

hello,

with the small drones now being able to detect footmobiles with their sensors, can we get an optional sensor display for the drone operator, even when he is not actively flying the drone?

This sensor info should be displayed in the uav control panel, and then the info should also put onto the operators map/gps unit to be shared with its squad. Otherwise if you display it like vehicles do you could exploit it to much, so forcing the player(s) to only see this info in  realtime via the control panel would be better in my opinion.

33 minutes ago, HaseDesTodes said:

 

i would understand this if the view was limited by weather, but in my case it is limited by player (server) settings.

so if a jet pilot has 1km more view distance than me, he could approach, lock and destroy me without any chance i could fire back, even if my missiles would be able to lock him if only i had the same view distance set.

doesn't sound like it should be this way to me.

I kind of agree but you can't kill what you cant see. And in warfare nothing is fair. Maybe a solution would be make the titan aa on vehicles dual seeker with radar and ir guidance

[dragon01 902]

Except that you are able to see him (on radar) and logically should be able to see him on both IR and visual, except that the graphics settings prevent you. IRL, someone that nearsighted wouldn't be allowed to command an AA vehicle (or even drive a car without glasses, for that matter). IMO, both IR and VIS sensors should work beyond the actual VD. Graphics settings are only there to control the looks of the game, they're not supposed to influence gameplay.

[HaseDesTodes 62]

12 minutes ago, dragon01 said:

Except that you are able to see him (on radar) and logically should be able to see him on both IR and visual, except that the graphics settings prevent you. IRL, someone that nearsighted wouldn't be allowed to command an AA vehicle (or even drive a car without glasses, for that matter). IMO, both IR and VIS sensors should work beyond the actual VD. Graphics settings are only there to control the looks of the game, they're not supposed to influence gameplay.

 

yes and no.

having him on the radar doesn't necessarily mean that it would be possible to see him on visual and ir spectrums.

because it could be a cold dark target at night.

or because IR and visual frequencys are blocked by weather conditions (eg. fog). since radar works on a differnt frequency it should be possible that the radar radiaton doesn't get absorbed or dispersed by the fog, so that you can still get clear signals.

 

BUT:

as long as the only difference is the view distance set by the client/server, that should not affect the vehicle and weapon sensors, because what you said.

graphic settings is about looks (and performance), it shouldn't influence the gameplay if possible.

[dragon01 902]

By "see it on radar", I meant that you know that it's there. What I meant is that there's an arbitrary restriction on engagement range based on VD. Sensors are already limited by lighting and weather conditions. Also, a plane in flight isn't exactly a "cold" target.

[arkhir 135]

With a tiny bit of scripting you can easily have Cheetah armed with radar-guided missiles:

 

(vehicle player) removeweapon "missiles_titan";

(vehicle player) addMagazine "4Rnd_GAA_missiles";

(vehicle player) addWeapon "missiles_zephyr";

[pipyn1970 19]

22 hours ago, nodunit said:

It's a fun idea but the problem is that PIP has many things going against it for use as a TGP.
First off is the frame rate,  picture in picture is just too demanding and even if you have a great computer setup that can run everything just fine, there is still the problem of the rate at which the PIP refreshes, you won't have the same image smoothness in PIP as you would by going to the optic, and that will effect movement and reaction times.

Instead of the clear image from PiP then, how about making it so what you see in the MFD page (where the PiP was) is the optic that can be controlled by either the key pad of as lots of people use a HOTAS, then they could key bind it them selves? I think people might prefer to use that screen as the optic of the TGP instead of having to go full screen to see the same thing. Its just my 2 pennies worth. After all, what does the pilot need? - He needs to have situational awareness as well as to be able to see a target on the ground that his JTAC wants killed. So the pilot doesn't need a perfect clear PiP. He only needs to see the image through the optic sight. If it could be toggled to night time TV & IR also that would be good but a grainy optic view (like the full screen one) would be perfect.

[pipyn1970 19]

20 hours ago, pingopete said:

PIP rendering at 8km and 60fps (60 only in first scene with venom with only one render target, the a10 had 3 mirrors RTT targets which brought the performance of the TGP screen way down): 

 

I implore Bohemia to take another run at PIP rendering in Arma 

This is exactly what I'm trying to say. When I see this sort of thing, I'm left wondering why I'm told it cant be done. Like that chopper at the start being able to control the camera from within the cockpit & while NOT looking "DOWN" the sight. If my memory serves me correctly I think I saw something like this in Arma's MRAPs, in the gunners seat - you could move the optic from with the seat without having to have a full screen of the sight.

[chortles 263]

41 minutes ago, pipyn1970 said:

This is exactly what I'm trying to say. When I see this sort of thing, I'm left wondering why I'm told it cant be done. Like that chopper at the start being able to control the camera from within the cockpit & while NOT looking "DOWN" the sight. If my memory serves me correctly I think I saw something like this in Arma's MRAPs, in the gunners seat - you could move the optic from with the seat without having to have a full screen of the sight.

That was because by default the gunner's mouse movements control the aiming of the turret and have nothing to do with the steering of the vehicle, just as if the turret were not remotely operated...

 

@HaseDesTodes @dragon01 Please be aware that to the best of my knowledge, the advantages in IR-guided missiles (in return for the trade-off of range) are seemingly supposed to be that #1: they don't set off aircraft lock warnings (as opposed to launch warnings) like active radar-guided missiles, and #2: they can be launched/locked without active radar enabled -- so if you can find the target aircraft within view distance you can turn/keep active radar off -- while active radar-guided missiles must have the launching vehicle's active radar sensor all the way through launch in order to begin and complete the missile lock.

[jone_kone 158]

16 minutes ago, chortles said:

That was because by default the gunner's mouse movements control the aiming of the turret and have nothing to do with the steering of the vehicle, just as if the turret were not remotely operated...

 

 

Couldn´t the "cockpit mode" TGP slew be achieved with a modifier? shift-mouse/arrow keys etc?

[twistking 204]

3 hours ago, snoops_213 said:

This sensor info should be displayed in the uav control panel, and then the info should also put onto the operators map/gps unit to be shared with its squad. Otherwise if you display it like vehicles do you could exploit it to much, so forcing the player(s) to only see this info in  realtime via the control panel would be better in my opinion.

I kind of agree but you can't kill what you cant see. And in warfare nothing is fair. Maybe a solution would be make the titan aa on vehicles dual seeker with radar and ir guidance

 

yes, it should be done in a  way, that is not exploitable too much. i'm not on dev branch, so i don't know, how effective the drone's footmobile sensor is. if it has only limited range and a limited fov and can't distinguish friend and foe, having it directly avaialble for the operator, shouldn't overpower him to much.

 

another suggestion on that matter: maybe have the drone control interface (+ sensor readout) directly integrated into the map view?! i always felt it was a little odd, to have the regular map and the uav control on scroll menu as an additional / seperate map function...

so basically, having the uav controller in your inventory would give you uav control and sensor readouts integrated in the "normal" map, when pressing "m".

would make controls a bit more intuitiv and would help the operator in MP, when he shares positions with his squad, as he has the normal map functions and the uav-control + sensor readouts on one single screen!

[HaseDesTodes 62]

1 hour ago, chortles said:

Please be aware that to the best of my knowledge, the advantages in IR-guided missiles (in return for the trade-off of range) are seemingly supposed to be that #1: they don't set off aircraft lock warnings (as opposed to launch warnings) like active radar-guided missiles, and #2: they can be launched/locked without active radar enabled -- so if you can find the target aircraft within view distance you can turn/keep active radar off -- while active radar-guided missiles must have the launching vehicle's active radar sensor all the way through launch in order to begin and complete the missile lock.

 

that can all be true (and i think it is) but still completly miss the point.

the point is:

should the missile lockon range be influenced/limited by the view distance (object drawing distance) in the player settings?

 

even if my PC was so slow, that i couldn't run view distances >1000m (so i have object drawing distance set to 1000m) and i can't see the aircraft i am trying to lock on to (because my PC isn't drawing it), the target is still there and my missiles should be able to see it.

Spoiler

 

so currently it is like this:

missile lockon range: 3km

object drawing distance: 6km

you can lock targets at ≤ 3km distance

 

missile lockon range: 3km

object drawing distance: 1.5km

you can lock targets at ≤ 1.5km distance

 

how i think it should be like this:

missile lockon range: 3km

object drawing distance: 6km

you can lock targets at ≤ 3km distance

 

missile lockon range: 3km

object drawing distance: 1.5km

you can lock targets at ≤ 3km distance

 

 

[dragon01 902]

Will laser-guided bombs and missiles ever get proper LOAL? Right now, they still require a marked laser target to be present before launch. This really isn't how it works. We really need the capability to drop the bomb first and paint the target later (about two seconds before impact is the usual procedure). This will become an issue once LWRs are introduced.

[heavygunner 179]

Is this from todays log something different?:

 

• Tweaked: Bombs can now again be dropped on just a marked target without a lock and seek the target themselves in flight 

Sounds like LOAL, no?

[dragon01 902]

No, it doesn't. 

25 minutes ago, heavygunner said:

marked target

The functionality described in that item is almost worthless in practice, because locking onto a laser is instant or nearly so. The only thing that it does is that you can now drop bombs a bit less accurately. The requirement for a laser target to be present before launch has to go away, preferably before LWRs are introduced. Otherwise the target will have more than enough time to drive away at full speed from your marked spot, before you even launch the bomb. 

[xon2 102]

I think locking your own laser before dropping a LGBU is a fairly alright substitute for laser codes. You can actually drop stuff pretty off bore and move it around after weapon launch, totally independet of a vehicle or structure, as long as the laser ends up on the target you wanna hit.

On another note: are Dagr missles infrared guided as well now? I cannot lock them on a cold Sochor for instance, just like the macer won't lock cold vehicles anymore. This maybe ok for the A-164 with lots of other options to get on target...but hte AH-99 is pretty useless this way.

[dragon01 902]

23 minutes ago, xon2 said:

I think locking your own laser before dropping a LGBU is a fairly alright substitute for laser codes.

No it isn't. Laser frequency setting doesn't force you to see the laser. Moving it around is not the answer, either. What if, for example, you want to fire a missile from behind a hill, and have it guide on a JTAC's laser on the other side of the hill? You can't do that, while IRL it's quite possible with Hellfires. Also, as far as moving targets go, the TGP will only follow them if it's exactly on target. So, to hit a moving target with an LGB you'll need to first lase an area, then catch up and paint the target itself. In the meantime, the bomb will be guiding towards the wrong spot, not to mention you'll be in TGP the whole time, which isn't good if you're trying to get out of there ASAP. The way it should work is that you set TGP to track a target, drop the bomb on it, and lase it two seconds before impact. It would also help overcome VD limits for high altitude bombing.

 

LOAL has to work without marking, like it did in ArmA2. In fact, the whole idea to first have to "designate" a laser target somehow is a bit absurd. I'm fine with it being a possibility (IRL, you differentiate between lasers by frequency), but certainly not a necessity. 

[snoops_213 75]

On 2017-5-3 at 2:35 AM, dragon01 said:

No it isn't. Laser frequency setting doesn't force you to see the laser. Moving it around is not the answer, either. What if, for example, you want to fire a missile from behind a hill, and have it guide on a JTAC's laser on the other side of the hill? You can't do that, while IRL it's quite possible with Hellfires. Also, as far as moving targets go, the TGP will only follow them if it's exactly on target. So, to hit a moving target with an LGB you'll need to first lase an area, then catch up and paint the target itself. In the meantime, the bomb will be guiding towards the wrong spot, not to mention you'll be in TGP the whole time, which isn't good if you're trying to get out of there ASAP. The way it should work is that you set TGP to track a target, drop the bomb on it, and lase it two seconds before impact. It would also help overcome VD limits for high altitude bombing.

 

LOAL has to work without marking, like it did in ArmA2. In fact, the whole idea to first have to "designate" a laser target somehow is a bit absurd. I'm fine with it being a possibility (IRL, you differentiate between lasers by frequency), but certainly not a necessity. 

Don't ever recall lasers working like that in any of the arma series, in fact i remember the laser spots would stop the AI vehicles from moving if you pointed it at them and they would try to go around it. Im not sure if it is possible but it should be that the laser sensors on the bomb/missile should have an auto target ability that only requires the laser on and not locked, i figure if it can auto see the laser on our sensor screen the tech must be there. And as for the situation where there might be multiple lasers well, maybe they could assign each designator a number (1-x)  thats determined by the order of which its placed in the editor (and the  ability to set it in the properties) and have an action menu (or a small gui) so we can select what laser number the bomb is to "look" for onced released.  

[venthorror 117]

TGP camera in DLC jets is moving too fast when using keys compared to old CAS jets. (In my example using HAT switch on a flight stick)

This has no effect when using mouse to aim TGP.

Can TGP camera movement in new jets be a bit slower like it is in Neophron and Wipeout..?

It should have no effect on the mouse, just on movement using keyboard (numpad) or Thumbstick on a Flightstick.

 

Currently it is impossible to aim TGP in new jets using Hat switch, but is fine in old airplanes.