France General

[orcinus 121]

Good article by Adam Gopnik on the BBC website

@Sooke - ggod post, thank you.

**

"Paradise is full of idiots who believe it exists" - Georges Wolinski

[ProfTournesol 956]

Probably more than 2 millions people in the streets, more than 1.5 million in Paris.

First time i see demonstrators cheer riot police...

Edited January 11, 2015 by ProfTournesol

[vilas 477]

Fire set to German newspaper office after it republishes Charlie Hebdo cartoons

http://itar-tass.com/en/world/770649

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1342,title,Redakcja-dziennika-Le-Soir-w-Belgii-ewakuowana,wid,17168412,wiadomosc.html

plus one Belgian newspaper evacuated after threats from probably islamists

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Szefowie-MSW-wzmocnic-kontrole-na-zewnetrznych-granicach-UE,wid,17168086,wiadomosc.html

Spain says that ca. 3000 fighters in Syria may return to Europe and something need to be done, cause 3000 Jihadists will be back

[Sooke 13]

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1342,title,Redakcja-dziennika-Le-Soir-w-Belgii-ewakuowana,wid,17168412,wiadomosc.html

plus one Belgian newspaper evacuated after threats from probably islamists

Wrong, the man claimed to be from the far left, he said he had enough of the press coverage of the Charlie Hebdo massacre, feeding the far right according to him.

And that's all we know so far.

http://www.lesoir.be/754999/article/actualite/belgique/2015-01-11/redaction-du-soir-evacuee-apres-des-menaces

------------

We must understand we are fighting an ideology here. And you don't fight an ideology with the same weapons you use to fight against armies.

This is what we've been doing for the last decade and it just exacerbates the tension between the west and the rest of the world.

Our bombs are ineffective against their ideas while every single attack they perpetrate strongly endanger our values and what our ancestors have been fighting for for centuries.

Countries dragging twice the entire planet in world wars are now united as one against their enemies.

This is remarkable because it is the result of a peaceful process, it wasn't achieved by exterminating our old enemies but by turning them into our friends.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Sooke

[mistyronin 1181]

We must understand we are fighting an ideology here. And you don't fight an ideology with the same weapons you use to fight against armies.

This is what we've been doing for the last decade and it just exacerbates the tension between the west and the rest of the world.

Our bombs are ineffective against their ideas while every single attack they perpetrate strongly endanger our values and what our ancestors have been fighting for for centuries.

+1 Basically that.

Bullets can't kill ideas. Education and pedagogy can transform them.

[ProfTournesol 956]

4 millions demonstrators according to the AFP. That's a huge slap in the face of those who think our values are fading.

[mistyronin 1181]

Personally I think that video has been really important, as it shows two ... killing cold-blood a nice Muslim police officer; showing what kind of ... they are.

( WRAL ) AP Exclusive: Witness to Paris officer's death regrets video

The man whose amateur video of a Paris police officer's cold-blooded murder shocked the world now regrets sharing the footage online, saying he never expected it to be broadcast so widely.

Engineer Jordi Mir told The Associated Press he posted the video out of fear and a "stupid reflex" fostered by years on social media.

"I was completely panicked," he said in an exclusive interview across from the Parisian boulevard where the officer was shot to death by terrorists Wednesday morning.

The short film immediately became the most arresting image of France's three-day-long drama, which began with a mass killing at the headquarters of satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo and ended Friday with the death of four hostages and the three terrorists in two separate shootouts.

---------- Post added at 21:41 ---------- Previous post was at 21:33 ----------

I'm sorry but that's the most idiotic idea I've read for a lot of years ( bring back border controls inside the EU )... Is like if the US decides to add border controls between states. Besides that is against the whole idea of the EU, the philosophy of Schengen.

That would be a huge victory for those terrorists, if they actions achieve to scare millions of people and governments so much that they start building borders everywhere, removing civilian liberties and being paranoid... Besides there already exist temporal exceptions of the Schengen treaty that allow border controls.

I mean I know of his fascist background, as his father was greatly known for being one of the Franco's dictatorship worst Police chiefs, but man...

( France 24 ) Spain wants to modify Schengen rules to allow border checks

Spain's Interior Minister Jorge Fernandez Diaz said Sunday he will make the case in Paris for a modification to the Schengen treaty allowing border controls in order to limit the movements of Islamic fighters returning to Europe from the Middle East.

"We are going to back border controls and it is possible that as a consequence it will be necessary to modify the Schengen treaty," he told the daily El Pais ahead of a ministerial meeting on the subject in Paris.

Edited January 11, 2015 by MistyRonin

[JdB 151]

I'm sorry but that's the most idiotic idea I've read for a lot of years ( bring back border controls inside the EU )... Is like if the US decides to add border controls between states. Besides that is against the whole idea of the EU, the philosophy of Schengen.

The national sovereignty of the member states of the EU in terms of defence and security surpasses the limits imposed by the Schengen treaty if so required. Member states are responsible for their own defence and for internal security where as the US states are not responsible for their own defence, the Federal government is. The system of US states and EU member states is not the same thing, US states are part of the same country where as the EU is a collection of countries that have agreed to allow the EU to be a separate legislator for certain matters that can be beneficial to all of it's members. When it's security is at stake any EU legislation may be disregarded until the situation is resolved (in this case that could take quite a while). For some odd reason this isn't mentioned in the English page of Wikipedia so I've translated it from the Dutch language page on the treaty:

"De Schengenlanden hebben recht op tijdelijke ontheffing van het verdrag als er sprake is van bijzondere omstandigheden. Zo is voor Duitsland tijdens het WK voetbal in 2006 het verdrag opgeschort om voetbalhooligans en relschoppers aan de grens te kunnen weren."

"The countries that are bound by the Schengen treaty have a right to temporarily suspend the treaty in case of special circumstances. For instance Germany suspended the treaty during the 2006 World Cup to keep hooligans and other troublemakers outside it's borders."

[mistyronin 1181]

The national sovereignty of the member states of the EU in terms of defence and security surpasses the limits imposed by the Schengen treaty if so required.

I know, but the main philosophy of the EU & Schengen is to create a united Europe, to remove borders and blockages, that's why even a common Armed Forces goal was set, also the Europol, etc.

The whole idea is to keep walking forward not to take steps back, specially if the motivation for those is terrorist blackmailing.

You just have to check a history book to know what is the alternative to a united Europe ( WW1, WW2, etc. )...

Edited January 11, 2015 by MistyRonin

[JdB 151]

I know, but the main philosophy of the EU & Schengen is to create a united Europe, to remove borders and blockages, that's why even a common Armed Forces goal was set, also the Europol, etc.

The whole idea is to keep walking forward not to take steps back, specially if the motivation for those is terrorist blackmailing.

With modern technology it would mostly amount to license plate readers and other electronic surveillance equipment that pick out vehicles known to belong to terrorists and their sympathizers so they can be logged, tracked and if needed stopped within a few km. Most people would never even notice it was there, stopping every vehicle is a big waste of time that no intelligence or security agency will bother themselves with. The focus would not be to catch all criminals like the border enforcement of old but only (potential) terrorists and facilitators that are already on the radar to keep better track of suspects. Right now due to Schengen an agency can follow a suspect into another country for 10km before they have to let them go unless they coordinate with the other country which is at present a bureaucratic process and therefore prone to failure.

[mistyronin 1181]

With modern technology it would mostly amount to license plate readers and other electronic surveillance equipment that pick out vehicles known to belong to terrorists and their sympathizers so they can be logged, tracked and if needed stopped within a few km.

That's already done in a lot of places, even inside the mentioned Spain ( in a lot of tunnels there is camera that keeps track of the license plates and so on ).

But what the Spanish interior minister was saying is to go back to physical controls, and stopping people one by one.

[oxmox 73]

France to Deploy Thousands of Forces to Protect Jewish Schools

France will deploy thousands of police officers and soldiers to guard the more than 700 Jewish schools across the country as a precaution against further terrorist attacks, the interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, said on Monday.

Mr. Cazeneuve announced the new protections in an address to parents at a Jewish school south of Paris, according to French radio and news agencies.

In addition, the defense minister said that as many as 10,000 troops would be called up to bolster security around “sensitive sites†that could become terror targets.

Among the victims were four Jewish shoppers who were killed in a kosher supermarket on Friday during a hostage-taking by a gunman, Amedy Coulibaly, who claimed he was acting on behalf of the Islamic State militant group.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/world/europe/france-charlie-hebdo-terrorist-attacks.html

American Conservatives Are Using the Paris Terror Attacks to Call for More War on Terror

As the terrorism drama continues to unfold in Paris, politicians across the globe have already begun to debate policy on the back of Wednesday's deadly assault on the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, and unsurprisingly, many right wingers are the past few days' events as confirmation that their warnings about radical Islam were right all along. While Europe deals with its own racial tensions and immigration issues, America's conservatives have seized on the attacks as an opportunity to reassert their hawkish national security policies and double down on the anti-terror strategies neocons have been pushing since 9/11.

"We must use this horrific attack as an opportunity to reevaluate our own national security posture," South Carolina Republican Lindsey Graham, a leading neocon, said in a lengthy statement on the attacks.

Suggesting that Obama doesn't understand the "gravity" of the terrorist threat, Senator John McCain, the new chair of the Senate Armed Forces Committee, said Thursday that the attacks would serve as impetus to reexamine issues like defense spending and the US strategy against the Islamic State.

"As long as ISIS succeeds, that will breed this kind of terrorist who goes to Syria, Iraq and fight, return to the country from which they came from—not only radicalized, but well trained," McCain told reporters. "And that is the reason why the administration is failing in not devoting the sufficient effort to destroy ISIS which is what the President's stated goal is... when in fact there is no strategy to do so."

For neocons, the attacks also offered an opening to defend controversy anti-terror intelligence programs and push back against bipartisan efforts to increase oversight of the country's spy agencies.

"It's not an attack on our homeland, but it's definitely an attack on our way of life," Graham said Wednesday.

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/republicans-respond-to-charlie-hebdo-paris-attacks-109

[nodunit 397]

All I see is hitler speech redone by americans, something about tightening our security and declaring war one a religion if not a race...and yay more babbling on about a non descript war against a non descript opponent, it's going to be vietnam part 3.

Even worse now we have a bunch of religious bumpkins going on about a whole religion being nothing but extremists.

I find it funny that these people go on about terrorists seeking to destroy our way of life and to take our freedoms when our government seems perfectly capable of doing that, you'd think they were using it for an excuse or something.

EDIT: sorry for the OT, our politicians just really really upset me to the point that I apparently cannot help but foam a bit.

Edited January 12, 2015 by NodUnit

[djotacon 190]

@Misty ronnin.

I suggest try dont speak about countries that you dont know very good and like many other countries using a simplistic point of view is worst idea.

[Rydygier 1317]

4 millions demonstrators according to the AFP. That's a huge slap in the face of those who think our values are fading.

As some Polish commentator noted, it also says interesting, not quite pleasant to acknowledge things about human psychology - a single act of terrorism with several victims, but in France, echoes so strongly, while nothing close to that, or rather nothing like that at all is going on in response for constant and much more massive bloodshed and violence due to terror in Africa or Middle East. Natural thing, I suppose, still sad somehow, so our indifference grows so fast with geographical and emotional distance.

Personally, I have to admit, apart from obvious moral condemation for this and any other act of terror, I'm in the same time extremely far from supporting media of such provocative profile. I consider their publications, I saw lately highly derisive and offensive. Abominable and disgusting. So there is no real "good guys" for me in this story, just some are much worse "bad guys" than their victims. I mean, no any acceptance for terror and bloodshed, but in the same time it's certain, these wasn't my values attacked by terrorists. On the contrary.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Rydygier

[oxmox 73]

All I see is hitler speech redone by americans, something about tightening our security and declaring war one a religion if not a race...and yay more babbling on about a non descript war against a non descript opponent, it's going to be vietnam part 3.

Even worse now we have a bunch of religious bumpkins going on about a whole religion being nothing but extremists.

I find it funny that these people go on about terrorists seeking to destroy our way of life and to take our freedoms when our government seems perfectly capable of doing that, you'd think they were using it for an excuse or something.

EDIT: sorry for the OT, our politicians just really really upset me to the point that I apparently cannot help but foam a bit.

There is one paragraph in this report which puzzles me:

Even Kentucky Senator Rand Paul, a libertarian-leaning Republican who has frequently butted heads with his party's neocons, has seized the opportunity to ramp up the rhetoric.

"I haven't seen any Christians or Jews dragging people of the Islamic faith through the streets, but I am seeing the opposite. I'm seeing Christians beheaded. I'm seeing people who say anything about Islam being shot," he said in a radio interview with Sean Hannity Thursday. "And so, yeah, should the rules always protect everyone's rights? Yeah. But I'm not too worried right now that we've infringed on their rights.

I'm worried that Christians and Jews are being killed around the world."

Most victims from Islamists/Salafists/Terrorists are actually muslime itself, allegedly more than 90%. I have doubts that, sorry to say but such "small numbers of victims" can be really avoided in the future with more regulations, more surveilance and cuts in our rights. The question is also if parts of such a "way of life" and its effects in our world is or was always the right decision. But it seems nothing stops currently the gruesome terror and religious extremism.

Edited January 12, 2015 by oxmox

[nodunit 397]

The whole thing about christians and jews is just a way to rile/terrify to more people, everyone seems to have forgotten about the separation of church and state but its also just another fear tactic "If you are christian then these muslims may be out for you!" our government is very good at that sort of thing.

Couldn't say wether or not our our way of life and its effects were the right decision, heck there may be no right answer when you consider the multitude of cultures and lifestyles, our way is not your way as it were, perhaps you could say the most peaceful is best?..Eh...I don't know what we can do about these extremists but I would never trust the task of handling that to the US government and any others it would, because the first suggestion is going to be military action.

You know...all of these talks about religious extremist muslims...I wonder, if we looked into the background of murderers and their information was released publicly, how many are christian.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Hi, this debate about Charlie's cartoons has been held in France a lot of times, the newspaper faced justice several times and won. Everybody here are well aware of this, and even if i personally think that i should have the right of blasphemy in my secular country, the 'i am Charlie' motto was only meant to support freedom of speech.

[Rydygier 1317]

to support freedom of speech.

Which by itself, I suppose, wasn't subject of terrorists' attack. They didn't attacked just because there is freedom of speech in France (some although may point double standards on the West here, so "freedom" may be more or less free depending on the topic) nor to finght with it but because certain use of it. Freedom of choice, what to say or do doesn't mean freedom from consequences of these choices. That was such consequence, frankly not very surprising, knowing those extremists and their ways. One reacts on the recurring, heavy blasphemy with silence, other with lawsuit, other with gun fire. Simply a fact. Meanwhile value of freedom of speech is reduced when not paired with another concept, named "mutual respect" that covers also respect for someone's faith. IMO lack of it denies same set of values, where freedom of speech is listed. And IMO again they attacked not the idea of freedom of speech, but people, who offended their faith, so whole protest seems missing the point to me. They should rather protest, why West doesn't do more against terrorism. If possible.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Rydygier

[nodunit 397]

How exactly would one combat terrorism? We don't know if someone is going to kill someone unless they are caught in the act or go through with it, the former being fairly difficult. I've read that our police forces want to begin making face scanners and fingerprint ID's standard amongst other things, the idea of equipment watching for "suspicious individuals", such as someone leaving a briefcase and then walking away, who knows what else or if its even possible.

[Rydygier 1317]

How exactly would one combat terrorism?

That's the right question. I don't think, current ways are well chosen/sufficient (not, if judging by results). If you want to eradicate some pestilence effectively, start from the roots. So first you have to understand, where these roots lies - why people are willing to do such terrible things (IMO faith/religion is only secondary excuse here, a self-justification tool, while real reason is deeply rooted hate, and question is about factual cause of this hate). And IMO it should be done with strict cooperation with the whole muslims, because it's in their best interest (I hope) to keep their faith far from such associations or accusations about "immanent terror inclination" built-in into the core Islam. BTW hard to point "core/true Islam", as there is AFAIK no any single highest authority dictating proper canon, only bigger and smaller factions with their imams. But some muslim may explain that better, than me.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Rydygier

[sudayev 27]

Police commissioner, who had been investigating the attack on the Charlie Hebdo magazine committed suicide with his service gun on Thursday night.

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150111/1016754353.html

[IndeedPete 1038]

That's the right question. I don't think, current ways are well chosen/sufficient (not, if judging by results). If you want to eradicate some pestilence effectively, start from the roots. So first you have to understand, where these roots lies - why people are willing to do such terrible things (IMO faith/religion is only secondary excuse here, a self-justification tool, while real reason is deeply rooted hate, and question is about factual cause of this hate). And IMO it should be done with strict cooperation with the whole muslims, because it's in their best interest (I hope) to keep their faith far from such associations or accusations about "immanent terror inclination" built-in into the core Islam. BTW hard to point "core/true Islam", as there is AFAIK no any single highest authority dictating proper canon, only bigger and smaller factions with their imams. But some muslim may explain that better, than me.

That is true. The war on terror probably caused more active "terrorists" than it neutralised. It seems like an infinite war to me. For every drone attack or bombing (by plane I mean) victim there is another family moving closer towards hatred and extremism. One can't fight terror with terror, people should know that by now. Also we shouldn't sacrifice the little freedom we have left for ineffective anti-terror mechanisms and overpowered intelligence services who are as crooky as the so-called terror groups.

[oxmox 73]

Germany: Leipzig forbids Mohammed Cartoons

Satirical images of the prophet could be construed as provocative, fears the Assembly authority in Leipzig. _{(the controversy Pegida/Legida demonstrations)}

Pegida mobilizes for weeks against the alleged Islamization of Germany by immigrants.

After Paris, one must assume that the Muhammad cartoons are a provocation," said a city spokesman of the DPA (german press agency). The goal is a peaceful course of the demonstration. But for the other assemblies there is no such requirement.

French and francophone cartoonists published on Sunday a leaflet entitled "Pegida, get out!" . "We reject that Pegida wants to monopolize the memory of our colleagues," said one of the organizers of the German Press Agency

article google translated

Edited January 12, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

@Misty ronnin.

I suggest try dont speak about countries that you dont know very good and like many other countries using a simplistic point of view is worst idea.

A ver alma de cantaro... Which country have I talk that I don't know very good? And / or using a simplistic point of view?

If you mean Spain, I even have Spanish passport because of all the years I lived there... ( After all I only lived there different years in each of these cities: Barcelona, Cartagena, Torrelavega, Madrid and Toledo )... I even studied a couple years of Anthropology in a Spanish University... How I dare!

As there would say: Es mejor estar callado y parecer tonto, que... Así que aplicate el cuento y espabila

Edited January 12, 2015 by MistyRonin