France General

[Tonci87 163]

Cover of the new Charlie Hebdo issue

http://thedailywh.at/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/011315charliehebdocover.jpg (106 kB)

"All is forgiven" above a sad Mohammed holding a "I am Charlie" sign.

They are printing 3 million copies instead of the usuall 60000

But:

http://qz.com/325724/public-broadcasters-not-publishing-the-new-charlie-hebdo-cover/

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yep, i've booked mine already. First time i will buy it BTW.

[mistyronin 1181]

Cover of the new Charlie Hebdo issue

http://thedailywh.at/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/011315charliehebdocover.jpg (106 kB)

"All is forgiven" above a sad Mohammed holding a "I am Charlie" sign.

A genius cover.

[ProfTournesol 956]

The author of the cover of tomorrow's edition of Charlie, at the press conference.

---------- Post added at 22:33 ---------- Previous post was at 22:11 ----------

rvOAG6OwaRY

[orcinus 121]

I agree, they are after all terror attacks. Their aim is to terrorize the people, to make them live in fear.

And I must say that the French had the perfect response with that huge parade. A Huge message of solidarity, of courage and of will. Not like the Americans after 9/11.

The 9/11 Terrorists were very successfull. Not only did they do their attack inside america, they also tricked the US into taking away its own freedoms, into sending hundreds of soldiers to their death in a far away land, into creating a lot of new jihadists because innocent people lost their belongings and their lifes in those wars....

Entirely agree. But then with regard to making people live in fear, the terrorists aren't doing anything so different to what Bush & his cronies did. Some time ago Adam Gopnik wrote (IIRC either the BBC or the Guradian):

"Of deliberately implanted anxiety, the kind that cynical politicians have used to control and regiment their people, not enough bad things can be said. After 9/11 in New York, a horrific but specific injury was deliberately levered into an apocalyptic panic. In the annals of courage and utter cowardice, none are more vivid than the contrasting pictures of Churchill on the rooftop of 10 Downing Street, coolly watching the Blitz, and Dick Cheney cowering in a bunker to make his fear contagious.

But then they did make billions of dollars - for themselves and their cronies....

[djotacon 190]

Does that mean that you'll finish your rants I-am-the-only-truth-owner and let us continue with our conversation? If so, I'm glad :)

Simplistic trolls that called dumb to anyone that speaks about dont know about is speaking deserve simplistics answers.

And this is a forum and the all are invited to reply to you.

[mistyronin 1181]

Simplistic trolls that called dumb to anyone that speaks about dont know about is speaking deserve simplistics answers.

Do you realized that all your interventions in this thread have been to call me ignorant and other adjectives, and not even one to talk about the subject of the thread?

Besides you didn't even gave us one single argument to reinforce your accusations?

So if you have a personal problem with me, feel free to PM whatever you want ( you already did ), but would you be so kind to let everyone else who is interested in this serious topic keep talking about it?

If not for me or the other users, do it for the victims of the tragedy.

- - -

( Al Jazeera ) Victims of France attacks laid to rest

French President Francois Hollande has pledged that his country will "never yield" to "terror" while honouring three police officers killed during the attack on the Charlie Hebdo satirical newspaper.

He pinned France's highest decoration, the Legion of Honour, on coffins draped in flag of France in Paris on Tuesday as the Marseillaise anthem rang out.

France's Le Pen calls for crackdown on mosques

"Our great and beautiful France will never break, will never yield, never bend" in the face of the threat that is "still there, inside and outside" the country, Hollande said.

Seventeen people, including journalists and police officers, died in the assault on Charlie Hebdo staff on Wednesday and in a bloody hostage situation at a Jewish supermarket two days later.

Franck Brinsolaro, 49 and Ahmed Merabet, 40, were killed during the attack on Charlie Hebdo.

The third police officer, Clarissa Jean-Philippe, 26, originally from the French Caribbean island of Martinique, was shot the next day when she arrived on the scene of a car accident in in the southern suburb of Montrouge.

Four Jewish victims of the kosher supermarket siege were buried in Israel on Tuesday.

Thousands of mourners gathered at a cemetery in Jerusalem for the funeral of Yoav Hattab, 22, Philippe Braham, 45, Yohan Cohen, 23, and Francois-Michel Saada, 64, who were killed on Friday.

[rye1 21]

This said, I'm no expert but this looks like a very sloppy blitz. A great deal of shots were fired by RAID officers in what seems a blind fashion inside the building, and not one connected with the armed man (assuming there wasn't another one): he actually flees unarmed through the door and is shot instead of apprehended. The RAID officers look unsure during the entry: I only have a little knowledge of military CQB tactics (police are different), but shouldn't they storm in hugging walls and clearing the doorway as soon as possible, instead of firing through the opening? Why throw the flashbang only after a few seconds, and not under the rising automatic door?

I've always thought that in these occasions the police should leave the blitz to military special forces. They are probably better trained, better equipped and better suited to clearing a room in a matter of moments. I can't help but think that a SF unit would have cleared the building faster and without the wounded, what do you guys think?

Essentially that is because traditional Close Quarter Battle will teach immediate entries. That is that you enter the building or room as soon as ready, for example as soon as the door opens. The entry point is available, you use it. This then leads on the many follow-on concepts such as the fatal funnel, running the walls (as you mention) and so forth. They are known in the industry against those who oppose them as 'blind entries' because they push entry team members into a potential muzzle, into danger, without consideration to what is inside the room. Yes Police have different tactics in many regards but essentially commit to the same (or very similar) entries taught in basic Close Quarter Battle courses around the world, in tactical training centers or in Military training centers. Difference here? Obviously the use of bunkers (shields), domestic setting against hostages and with what should have been a templated hostage rescue.

Why not clear as soon as possible? One team member stated that shopping trolleys were blocking their entry. I find this to be a fallacy in such an entry. They were split stack with many team members which looked to be a flood. Objects/obstacles in a flood should simply be bypassed. A flood is designed on collateral. Why pause before entry? Flashbang placement is an important deal in this event, they may have wanted good placement - a deep crash, before entry. That said, MistyRonin, has a point too. You don't want to negate the flashzone and effect by placing it too "shallow" in the room.

An SF unit may have better resources, training - but that doesn't mean they would have done it better. Immediate entries against immediate threats leads to BAD scenarios no matter which way you look at it. It's dangerous. More time in a killhouse does not equate to better outcomes when you're conducting bad entries against prepared immediate threat or against barricaded hostage rescue scenarios. It was all ad-hoc it seems, not a 'templated' hostage rescue (which means you know the layout, the plan, the contingencies to a T, i.e. the use of shopping trolleys to get in the way).

In this case both RAID and GIGN are highly trained in this kind of situations, have more experience than military special forces ( with the exception of really few military special operation groups ). They waited to throw the flash-bang to check what was happening inside first. Which is the logical thing to do, observe and then act. On their shooting tactic, I don't think any of them shot blindly. Remember that they were also raiding the building from at least another access.

On why do they shoot to a man that runs against them instead of apprehend him. How would they know that the specific man didn't had any explosives rigged to the body, or a grenade, or whatever. BTW I'm not an expert in SWAT teams nor anything, tho I've worked close to a military Special Operations group ( we even shared corridor in our barracks ) and met a few SWAT guys.

They were demonstrating the lead up to an immediate entry, not a limited entry which is what ended up occurring. You can tell because of the use of the bunkers so persistently and the first member to conduct an immediate entry and cross the threshold, shuffle-stepping off to the side across his buddies line of fire.

Here's what I wrote on another forums:

"It was a clusterfuck of an entry. Multiple bunkers with what looks to be minimal experience fighting from the door. Of course an S-vest, grenade, etc, could of killed or injured many of the entry team but those entries are made for collateral. It was basically a flood. Because they were split stack it looks to be a Power Shift Flood. As you say the first man immediately enters only to realize "Whoops, bad move!" and make even more bad moves strafing into the line of fire of others. The rest of the entry team pause at the door, it's a NORMAL response in these situations. "Attacking from the edges" with a bunker none the less isn't. The Sydney Hostage Rescue had the same thing happen. It's "sniffing the cave" - the freeze-start up effect of environmental and dangerous exposure. The crossfire as the terrorist ran out also was a bit iffy. Behaviour trumps tactics. I can only imagine if the terrorist held-off for the entry to occur we might have more dead and wounded, including members of the entry team. These men are no doubt courage, none the less. It's a shame to see as well, these past few months have had all access to CT/AT teams in action with similar tactical errors."

My opinions only guys. Sorry for the big post.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Rye
Spelling/grammar.

[Sooke 13]

As you say the first man immediately enters only to realize "Whoops, bad move!" and make even more bad moves strafing into the line of fire of others.

Actually, according to the plan you have provided (where does it come from ?) this was planned.

"2. As soon as the assault begins, a police officer in charge of the hostages protection sneaks into the entrance and reach the hostages. Other hostages are hidden in the cold chamber in the basement"

[vilas 473]

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Al-Azhar-nowe-rysunki-proroka-w-Charlie-Hebdo-to-prowokacja-i-obraza-Mahometa,wid,17175745,wiadomosc.html

again someone from islamic theology is "not satisfied" with covers of that newspaper,

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Teraz-wasza-kolej-Grozby-pod-adresem-tygodnika-Le-Canard-Enchaine,wid,17175493,wiadomosc.html

another threats to another newspaer

yeee carry on with politicall correctness till all of you will be beheaded because you are infidels

[rye1 21]

Actually, according to the plan you have provided (where does it come from ?) this was planned.

"2. As soon as the assault begins, a police officer in charge of the hostages protection sneaks into the entrance and reach the hostages. Other hostages are hidden in the cold chamber in the basement"

I meant from the video of the raid that I saw. A "police officer in charge of the hostages", fine, they've got members of the entry team with specific roles. But I do not believe this was his goal being one of the lead members of an entry team, on the bunker. I find that hard to believe. Judging by his reaction, too. It's all subjective, I may be wrong there.

[Maio 293]

Simplistic trolls that called dumb to anyone that speaks about dont know about is speaking deserve simplistics answers.

And this is a forum and the all are invited to reply to you.

G'day,

I would like to make a couple of observations/requests:

A. Since the foundations of this thread is based on the CH attack by extremists, people are bound to have strong opinions.

B. Since we are all humans and at some point in life we had to deal with one or multiple persons holding opposing views, it is of commonsense to expect that we know how to interact with them (to some degree).

C. Posturing and/or using "holier than thou" arguments is not a good idea when debating as it puts your interlocutor in a defensive state.

D. I would greatly appreciate if all participating members would refrain from personal attacks and continue posting news articles and discussing them in an objective manner. If you wish to prove a point to someone else, do it politely via PM.

E. If you feel offended by someones remarks, please report the post or private message and our team of highly trained, locally sourced, organic moderators will handle it.

Thank you :)

[Tonci87 163]

Essentially that is because traditional Close Quarter Battle will teach immediate entries. That is that you enter the building or room as soon as ready, for example as soon as the door opens. The entry point is available, you use it. This then leads on the many follow-on concepts such as the fatal funnel, running the walls (as you mention) and so forth. They are known in the industry against those who oppose them as 'blind entries' because they push entry team members into a potential muzzle, into danger, without consideration to what is inside the room. Yes Police have different tactics in many regards but essentially commit to the same (or very similar) entries taught in basic Close Quarter Battle courses around the world, in tactical training centers or in Military training centers. Difference here? Obviously the use of bunkers (shields), domestic setting against hostages and with what should have been a templated hostage rescue.

Why not clear as soon as possible? One team member stated that shopping trolleys were blocking their entry. I find this to be a fallacy in such an entry. They were split stack with many team members which looked to be a flood. Objects/obstacles in a flood should simply be bypassed. A flood is designed on collateral. Why pause before entry? Flashbang placement is an important deal in this event, they may have wanted good placement - a deep crash, before entry. That said, MistyRonin, has a point too. You don't want to negate the flashzone and effect by placing it too "shallow" in the room.

An SF unit may have better resources, training - but that doesn't mean they would have done it better. Immediate entries against immediate threats leads to BAD scenarios no matter which way you look at it. It's dangerous. More time in a killhouse does not equate to better outcomes when you're conducting bad entries against prepared immediate threat or against barricaded hostage rescue scenarios. It was all ad-hoc it seems, not a 'templated' hostage rescue (which means you know the layout, the plan, the contingencies to a T, i.e. the use of shopping trolleys to get in the way).

They were demonstrating the lead up to an immediate entry, not a limited entry which is what ended up occurring. You can tell because of the use of the bunkers so persistently and the first member to conduct an immediate entry and cross the threshold, shuffle-stepping off to the side across his buddies line of fire.

Here's what I wrote on another forums:

"It was a clusterfuck of an entry. Multiple bunkers with what looks to be minimal experience fighting from the door. Of course an S-vest, grenade, etc, could of killed or injured many of the entry team but those entries are made for collateral. It was basically a flood. Because they were split stack it looks to be a Power Shift Flood. As you say the first man immediately enters only to realize "Whoops, bad move!" and make even more bad moves strafing into the line of fire of others. The rest of the entry team pause at the door, it's a NORMAL response in these situations. "Attacking from the edges" with a bunker none the less isn't. The Sydney Hostage Rescue had the same thing happen. It's "sniffing the cave" - the freeze-start up effect of environmental and dangerous exposure. The crossfire as the terrorist ran out also was a bit iffy. Behaviour trumps tactics. I can only imagine if the terrorist held-off for the entry to occur we might have more dead and wounded, including members of the entry team. These men are no doubt courage, none the less. It's a shame to see as well, these past few months have had all access to CT/AT teams in action with similar tactical errors."

My opinions only guys. Sorry for the big post.

I agree with this.

EDIT:

Edited January 14, 2015 by Tonci87

[batto 17]

http://img.pr0gramm.com/2015/01/14/4cdd65195f193e68.jpg (173 kB)

[oxmox 73]

Like Israel would not have already problems with immigraton and especially the demography is their biggest problem for the future......btw I didnt know that allegedly France leads the world with home grown anti-semitism. The statisics show an intersting overview about jewish population around the world.

Antisemitism in France: the exodus has begun

As gunmen attack a kosher supermarket in Paris, Jews there will pack their bags even faster

The least surprising thing about today’s turn of events in Paris is that Jews are the target. Because when it comes to home grown anti-Semitism, France leads the world.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11335980/Antisemitism-in-France-the-exodus-has-begun.html

'Israel is your home' Benjamin Netanyahu tells French Jews after Charlie Hebdo rally

Benjamin Netanyahu urged the Jewish population of Europe to emigrate but his remarks were met with hostility from Jewish rights groups.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/israel-is-your-home-benjamin-netanyahu-tells-french-jews-after-charlie-hebdo-rally-9971954.html

15,000 Jews to leave France for Israel, Jewish Agency says

Jewish emigration body says numbers arriving from France could soar after recent deadly attack and rising anti-Semitism

A record 15,000 French Jews could emigrate to Israel this year amid fears of rising anti-Semitism in Europe, according to the official body overseeing migration to the Jewish state.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/11340173/15000-Jews-to-leave-France-for-Israel-Jewish-Agency-says.html

Edited January 14, 2015 by oxmox

[tortuosit 485]

Moroccan-born mayor of Rotterdam tells fellow Muslims who do not appreciate the 'freedoms' of living in the West to 'pack your bags and f*** off' on live TV

In Germany (only if he was a German, that is) - this would be a case of Staatsschutz, he would be crushed by media and his career would be over. They would find any minor offence from his past.

Edited January 14, 2015 by tortuosit

[vilas 473]

Moroccan-born mayor of Rotterdam tells fellow Muslims who do not appreciate the 'freedoms' of living in the West to 'pack your bags and f*** off' on live TV

In Germany (only if he was a German, that is) - this would be a case of Staatsschutz, he would be crushed by media and his career would be over. They would find any minor offence from his past.

he is right - if islamists do not accept European way of life - why the hell they are here ?

if they want to set Sharia and forbid and fight with all we love ?

this guy is Arab himself, Morocan - and he says truth - if islamists do not accept secular state - they should leave

i also know Arab, from Egypt, who is Coptic Christian - he run away from his land after revolution - he escaped and he doesn't want Sharia to follow him in the place where he escaped from it, i do not understand why Europe has to accept those who attack people on street for living European way (all Sharia patrols)

if i do not like beach - i dont go to sea, but to mountains for holidays, i do not go to sea to demand covering beach with rocks

http://project.scenewash.org/wp-content/uploads/580039_365709246818738_100001389972177_980685_152682248_n.jpg

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c60bf53ef0120a5ed8d8c970b-600wi

http://gopthedailydose.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/SignFreedomExpressionGoToHell.jpg

http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/.a/6a010535ce1cf6970c012875616848970c-pi

http://www.dcclothesline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/islam-collage.jpg

why they are tollerated ? they demand MURDER those who are not supporting Islam,

Edited January 14, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

( I'm not gonna quote the whole block of text )

My opinions only guys.

Uhm, interesting points. And yeah, I read the full comment, twice :P

Moroccan-born mayor of Rotterdam tells fellow Muslims who do not appreciate the 'freedoms' of living in the West to 'pack your bags and f*** off' on live TV

The point of that is that these guys were French citizens, with a French education. They used to drank and even dreamed of being hip hop artists.

They are not immigrants from a far away country that have been unable to adapt.

---------- Post added at 16:25 ---------- Previous post was at 16:04 ----------

( BBC ) Charlie Hebdo attack: Rush to buy new 'survivors' issue'

Long queues have formed at newsstands in France for the latest edition of satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo.

Five million copies are being printed - a week after Islamist gunmen murdered 12 people at its offices and five others in subsequent attacks in Paris.

---------- Post added at 17:03 ---------- Previous post was at 16:25 ----------

Not only in France there's a huge demand for Charlie Hebdo, also here in Finland ( there's even reservation list for all of those who couldn't get a copy ):

( Åbo Underrättelser, in Swedish ) Big rush for Charlie Hebdo in Turku

Demand for the French satire magazine Charlie Hebdos fresh numbers are large in Turku.

( NOTE: Turku, aka Ã…bo, is the former capital of Finland )

Edited January 14, 2015 by MistyRonin

[13islucky 10]

Talk about a plan backfiring, huh?

[Tonci87 163]

Turkey had banned the title page of the new issue. Internet access is blocked to all websites that contain this image.....

[mistyronin 1181]

Turkey had banned the title page of the new issue. Internet access is blocked to all websites that contain this image.....

Really? And they still want to get inside the EU? Way to go...

[ProfTournesol 956]

Really? And they still want to get inside the EU? Way to go...

They may want to start by really doing something against IS terrorists (or their European recruits) crossing Turkish border on a daily basis instead of blocking access to cartoons. That secular country isn't that much secular anymore, Mustapha Kemal is really forgotten this time.

[Tonci87 163]

It´s Erdogan, that guy is moving Turkey further away from Secularism each year.

[vilas 473]

It´s Erdogan, that guy is moving Turkey further away from Secularism each year.

thats why there were those protests - many people from Turkey want to live like we live, cause they feel closer to Europe than to Middle East, but Erdogan was voted by rest of country, not by youth and educated

[Tonci87 163]

Well there have been vote fraud allegations against Erdogan....