Advanced Helicopter FDM Feedback

[the_demongod 31]

Not in the real life. You'll damage the transmission long before you do anything to the rotor system. Additionally, you'll never damage the tail rotor without hitting anything.

I'll admit I thought the breaking of the tail rotor was a bit odd

but in DCS: UH-1H (I really have no idea how credible a source that is but I'm going to assume it's at least somewhat accurate) it is moderately easy to rip your main rotor off. Don't know really what would cause that though.

[roberthammer 582]

I'll admit I thought the breaking of the tail rotor was a bit odd

but in DCS: UH-1H (I really have no idea how credible a source that is but I'm going to assume it's at least somewhat accurate) it is moderately easy to rip your main rotor off. Don't know really what would cause that though.

The only helicopters where the rotors will fly off are those with a semi-rigid/teeter-totter rotor system (IE the Huey & Cobra) when you encounter excessive mast-bumping.

Thats because the semi-rigid rotor system - http://www.copters.com/mech/mr_semi.html

I should say - turn off the tail rotor failure unless you hit something with it or when you get hit , as for main rotors those should "break" only when you go overspeed but like b00ce said the transmission breaks first if anything

Edited September 29, 2014 by RobertHammer

[x3kj 1247]

I tried flying MH9 with [Auto-Trim: Not Enabled] flying with keyboard. Try it yourself. :/

They just need to do the same filtering they do for cars. Instead of going from 0 to 1 in an instant (digital), it should gradually increase, in case AFM is used (or maybe all time?)

[b00ce 160]

I'll admit I thought the breaking of the tail rotor was a bit odd

but in DCS: UH-1H (I really have no idea how credible a source that is but I'm going to assume it's at least somewhat accurate) it is moderately easy to rip your main rotor off. Don't know really what would cause that though.

nm8iV_uiBsI

Like Rob (And I) said, it has to do with the semi-rigid/Teeter-totter rotor system.

and

rotor systems (The ones in game at the moment) do not have this issue.

[gatordev 219]

Nothing productive from my post, but just echoing what RH and b00ce are saying. Nothing about a UH-1 should apply to current in-game helicopters. It's not abnormal (though not desired) to pull more than 144% Tq on a H-60 (think about that number for a second), and nothing be physically wrong with the transmission.

Honestly, the single biggest stress on a rotor system is blade stall, which if left unchecked long enough, will be catastrophic. Otherwise, modern helo systems are pretty damn robust, including the T/R (which looks to have been tweaked in the latest Dev branch).

By the way, sweet Army Safety video. Nothing says Safety like a tank barrel pointing at a person's head, and a helo's blades at head level.

[b00ce 160]

It's not abnormal (though not desired) to pull more than 144% Tq on a H-60 (think about that number for a second), and nothing be physically wrong with the transmission.

For those who care, that's just over 11,700 Ft. lbs of torque and probably somewhere around 22,000 lbs of lift (Depends on temperature, altitude, etc.).

So in other words, ArmA helicopters are still suffering from the same over fragility they always have.

[twisted 128]

No offence, but I'm inclined to disagree that the sole intention of the Advanced FDM is to create an elitist society of players who own HOTAS. I am giving feedback based on that assumption.

Hotas not necessary. But even a cheap ass joystick gives better control of what is essentially a very sensitive flying machine/model that depends on nuance and constant input to control properly and which a keyboard is hard pressed to provide. I tried keyboard last night and went down hard. Which felt right with thus flight model. Nothing elitist, merely pragmatic.

[machineabuse 11]

The latest update has made the FDM keyboard flyable again. No spontaneous rotor ejection observed anymore! :cool:

[Anachoretes 10]

New FDM just theoretically flyable by keyboard. I think, we don't need another primitive flying model for KMB, we already have one. Rotor damage was mistakenly ubiquitous, and disturb players with any controller.

[machineabuse 11]

Don't mistake me, neither I nor anyone else in the thread at any point asked for any changes to the FDM to suit keyboard players. What I asked for specifically were tweaks to the interface handling so that key presses do not result in instantaneous 100% antitorque and collective inputs.

Because these changes happen on the interface end and not the FDM end, this has no effect howsoever on the analog experience while being considerate of players for whatever reason do not use analog input. Simply put; there is no reason to be opposed to this inclusivity aside from BI's internal time constraints and that is for them to worry about :)

Not that it matters, I have a HOTAS albiet an ancient one. I just see no reason that a keyboard and mouse can't be used within the scope of this flight model given a minimum of attention.

New FDM just theoretically flyable by keyboard.

A *little* more than

:) Edited September 30, 2014 by Machineabuse
formatting

[quickvenge 10]

For those who care, that's just over 11,700 Ft. lbs of torque and probably somewhere around 22,000 lbs of lift (Depends on temperature, altitude, etc.).

So in other words, ArmA helicopters are still suffering from the same over fragility they always have.

I agree the current choppers are too fragile. But if you do that over and over again won't something will eventually break? Don't you have to report it and have the ground crew tear the chopper apart to inspect it if you over torqued it in real life.

The current FDM doesn't seem to model rotor overspeed damage. How tolerant are current combat choppers to rotor overspeed? Just curious. We have to report these too in real life if we did this.

Edited September 30, 2014 by quickvenge

[b00ce 160]

I agree the current choppers are too fragile. But if you do that over and over again won't something will eventually break? Don't you have to report it and have the ground crew tear the chopper apart to inspect it if you over torqued it in real life.

The current FDM doesn't seem to model rotor overspeed damage. How tolerant are current combat choppers to rotor overspeed? Just curious. We have to report these too in real life if we did this.

If you go above a certain amount, you have to replace the whole transmission and send it to the depot for an inspection. Not that you actually broke anything, its just a precaution. Rotor RPM is pretty tolerant. Above a certain % RPM you have to do a bunch of inspections when you return to base, but by no means is your rotor head going to fly off.

In the grand scheme of things, as far as ArmA is concerned, it doesn't really matter. Can't really do all those inspections in ArmA and the time scale doesn't really allow for it either. No sense dead-lining an aircraft when any given game lasts 2 or 3 hours at most; half a normal real life mission.

A *little* more than

:)

I can do it in DCS huey with only keyboard...

[armored_sheep 56]

There are three damage simulations in flight model of rotors.

The first is transmission damage due to torque. There is measured threshold and time. Basically if you fly over limit for 5 minutes, the transmission will brake - in game you will see rotor stopped spinning. I use for all western design helicopters this limit at 90% of their available maximum torque.

The second simulated damage is actual force on each rotor. RTD calculates force vector on each rotor. I defined in configs a limit of this force in Newtons. If you get over the limit, rotor will instantly brake apart. I would like to use this limit to prevent flight in unrealistic attitude, for example pulling high G or doing erratic moves on high speeds. I spent some time last days trying to find best values for each helicopter. Hopefully in next update you will find them better ;)

Last one is collision/hit damage off course.

[maddogx 13]

If you get over the limit, rotor will instantly brake apart.

This is only tangentially related to the FDM, but are there plans to add a visual effect for this, i.e. rotor parts flying off? Currently the rotor simply disappears, which looks weird. :)

[armored_sheep 56]

This is only tangentially related to the FDM, but are there plans to add a visual effect for this, i.e. rotor parts flying off? Currently the rotor simply disappears, which looks weird. :)

I hope that artists and coders will have some time to make better visuals of rotor disintegration.

[RuecanOnRails 10]

There are three damage simulations in flight model of rotors.

The first is transmission damage due to torque. There is measured threshold and time. Basically if you fly over limit for 5 minutes, the transmission will brake - in game you will see rotor stopped spinning. I use for all western design helicopters this limit at 90% of their available maximum torque.

The second simulated damage is actual force on each rotor. RTD calculates force vector on each rotor. I defined in configs a limit of this force in Newtons. If you get over the limit, rotor will instantly brake apart. I would like to use this limit to prevent flight in unrealistic attitude, for example pulling high G or doing erratic moves on high speeds. I spent some time last days trying to find best values for each helicopter. Hopefully in next update you will find them better ;)

Last one is collision/hit damage off course.

I really like the quick break down on what's simulated, knowing the thresholds will make flying within them easier. Now that torque related damage is being added, will we see working torque (and other) gauges like we had in TKOH? Flying without a hud gives no indication of torque, and with the hud enabled a static white/yellow/red light doesn't give enough information to make adjustments. I'd assumed these features were waiting on stress damage to be implemented.

I would really like to be able to fly, maintain a heading, speed, and altitude using cockpit instruments alone in the advanced FDM, a near hud-less experience.

Little bit away from the FDM discussion, but an option to changing the HUD altitude from above ground level to above sea level would be nice for formation flying. Things become complicated with an ever changing ground level while maintaining a level flight path.

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

Total loss of aircraft sound from blackfoot when flying in 3rd person.

[armored_sheep 56]

Total loss of aircraft sound from blackfoot when flying in 3rd person.

Wrong thread. This belong in http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?154605-Audio-Tweaking-%28dev-branch%29

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

Wrong thread. This belong in http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?154605-Audio-Tweaking-%28dev-branch%29

Apologies put there.

[b00ce 160]

There are three damage simulations in flight model of rotors.

The first is transmission damage due to torque. There is measured threshold and time. Basically if you fly over limit for 5 minutes, the transmission will brake - in game you will see rotor stopped spinning. I use for all western design helicopters this limit at 90% of their available maximum torque.

The second simulated damage is actual force on each rotor. RTD calculates force vector on each rotor. I defined in configs a limit of this force in Newtons. If you get over the limit, rotor will instantly brake apart. I would like to use this limit to prevent flight in unrealistic attitude, for example pulling high G or doing erratic moves on high speeds. I spent some time last days trying to find best values for each helicopter. Hopefully in next update you will find them better ;)

Only 90% for 5 minutes?

With this information from RTD, is it possible to remove individual blades and have the aircraft act accordingly?

[nodunit 397]

I hope that artists and coders will have some time to make better visuals of rotor disintegration.

A huge step not just in the destruction but also the visual aftermath would be to make only the rotors dissapear (or break) and not the whole of the hub, or if you want to get more fancy add a broken component either by alpha textures (which will require proxy otherwise you're gonna have some ugly alpha on alpha artifacts) or by a hidden model chunk inside the original rotor so that when the main rotor breaks off the chunk is unhidden.

Even

Edited September 30, 2014 by NodUnit

[vicx 10]

What methods are the people in this thread using to test the FDM choppers. I am opening the editor and placing a heli in the Stratis Airfield just for starters and adding some wind every now and then.

There are few wrinkles in my testing at the moment.

• A few dev betas ago I started to get an error after adding a chopper and previewing the map.

  No entry 'config.bin/CfgVehicles/B_Heli_Light_01_F.tailBladeCenter'. //I get it for Attack and Transport choppers too.

  
  

• I am also trying to view the diag tools on the choppers but the debug console in the DEV build is playing up giving me errors about a missing ';'
  

  'diag_toggle |#|"Hitpoints"'
  Error Missing ;

  
  

• And after the engine startup sound fades away I get no engine sound whatsoever in any of the FDM choppers while I am controlling that chopper. I can hear other choppers flying around but not my own.
  

I will most likely report these in the feedback tracker but first I want to know if it is just me having the problems.

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

What methods are the people in this thread using to test the FDM choppers. I am opening the editor and placing a heli in the Stratis Airfield just for starters and adding some wind every now and then.

There are few wrinkles in my testing at the moment.

• A few dev betas ago I started to get an error after adding a chopper and previewing the map.

  No entry 'config.bin/CfgVehicles/B_Heli_Light_01_F.tailBladeCenter'. //I get it for Attack and Transport choppers too.

  
  

• I am also trying to view the diag tools on the choppers but the debug console in the DEV build is playing up giving me errors about a missing ';'
  

  'diag_toggle |#|"Hitpoints"'
  Error Missing ;

  
  

• And after the engine startup sound fades away I get no engine sound whatsoever in any of the FDM choppers while I am controlling that chopper. I can hear other choppers flying around but not my own.
  

I will most likely report these in the feedback tracker but first I want to know if it is just me having the problems.

I always test in airfield up north on Altis.

Well I know that for the first time yesterday I ran dev mode with mods on by mistake after coming from a mp game. The mod broke heli sound after starting up much like you described.

I don't get them errors.

[armored_sheep 56]

Only 90% for 5 minutes?

With this information from RTD, is it possible to remove individual blades and have the aircraft act accordingly?

More than 90% for at least 5 minutes. The more torque over the threshold the faster it may brake, but not sooner than after 5 minutes.

The force that causes rotors disappear is measured for the whole rotor component.

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

Sheep I noticed in the dev changelog the blackfoot has more sideslip at speeds.

Been testing this and so far comparing the orca and the blackfoot. Turning at the same speeds can't see or feel any difference.

Just wondering what exactly was changed. From the vid linked you can see the blackfoot turning sideways at 100 knots (180) kph. Also being able to switch from front to 180. This is what really seprated it from the other attack helis.