Patch 1.24 (Bootcamp Update) Feedback

[lovemotion 10]

The only update that i saw was the NATO and russian mod.

[chortles 263]

The only update that i saw was the NATO and russian mod.

Several other weapon packs have been updated, and I understand that even JSRS has been as well.

[barakokula31 10]

Agreed.

Just in case someone didn't know, this^ guy spends all day complaining about how Arma 3 is horrible on the Steam forums. Ignore him and please don't bother trying to explain that the change to sounds was announced almost a month ago.

[RuairiAU 1]

Finally got around to trying out what the new update has to offer...

Bootcamp:

Awesome. Great for getting new players up to speed. I could really see this getting expanded upon by the community where we create 'certification' missions for things like Basic infantry training, medical training etc. Same for the community guides, if we can mod that to include our own guides that would be super.

Virtual Arsenal

Love it! VAS is dead to me now. Long live Virtual Arsenal.

Fatigue System

I like the concept, it just needs refinement. From a gameplay point of view, I like that I now have to consider my loadout, weapon position & stance during movement and where and when I should sprint. However, I think it needs to be toned down quite a bit when your weapon is down and your not sprinting (just light jogging). I should be able to jog several hundred meters with a reasonable amount of weight without having a heart attack.

[chortles 263]

Fatigue System

I like the concept, it just needs refinement. From a gameplay point of view, I like that I now have to consider my loadout, weapon position & stance during movement and where and when I should sprint. However, I think it needs to be toned down quite a bit when your weapon is down and your not sprinting (just light jogging). I should be able to jog several hundred meters with a reasonable amount of weight without having a heart attack.

Conversely though, if your load is indeed "reasonable" then slowing to an occasional walk or stationary rest break* (i.e. behind cover) should actually lower the fatigue at a correspondingly quick rate.

* Alternately, consider going to a crouch/on-one-knee and then proning instead of going straight to prone -- dolphin diving builds a bunch of fatigue for very little forward movement!

[RuairiAU 1]

@Chortles

Yeah I do get it, but as I say, I think it just needs a bit more refinement. It just feels like my soldier is really quite unfit. I accept that part of that may be a learning curve at my end though and maybe better management of my soldiers movement is needed.

[the_demongod 31]

new update horrible 20 million sound errors

needs to be fixed

The only bad thing about 1.24 update is all the people bitching about their stupid gun mods being broken. I can't understand why everyone needs to continuously complain about this. They were warned long ago, and their mod makers have most likely fixed their mods by now anyways.

[chortles 263]

@Chortles

Yeah I do get it, but as I say, I think it just needs a bit more refinement. It just feels like my soldier is really quite unfit. I accept that part of that may be a learning curve at my end though and maybe better management of my soldiers movement is needed.

Personal suggestions from me: a lot of time in Virtual Arsenal, and maybe even looking up whatever command would allow the stats-displaying UI to be visible in Editor preview? Alternately, if your concern is over how this meshes with a "tactical situation", perhaps you could take inspiration in recreating this training scenario?

[j4you 10]

The only bad thing about 1.24 update is all the people bitching about their stupid gun mods being broken. I can't understand why everyone needs to continuously complain about this. They were warned long ago, and their mod makers have most likely fixed their mods by now anyways.

If you wont i can explain for you.

If you develop a title in sandbox as ArmA III, where you MUST customer the title whit Mods, for found the best compromise to complete what still miss,and may be never you will see it in default game,it's logical that if you break this way whit a official patch, they obliges all developers of these mods,to work again on it to restore the proper execution of the game.

May be you dont care about it because you dont use it,but think about that server where enable that mods and may be you will begin understand why this stupid gun mods........etc..etc!

Even BI are warning about it in that endless and boring sitreps..dosent mind that they have done to a pleasure to those players.

If for you the only problem about this patch it's that complain....may be you dont follow all thread about the new swing effect or drunk effect!:803:

Edited July 17, 2014 by j4you

[roshnak 41]

If you wont i can explain for you.

If you develop a title in sandbox as ArmA III, where you MUST customer the title whit Mods, for found the best compromise to complete what still miss,and may be never you will see it to default,it's logical that if you break this way whit a official patch, they obliges all developers of these mods,to work again on it to restore the proper execution of the game.

May be you dont care about it because you dont use it,but think about that server where enable that mods and may be you will begin understand why this stupid gun mods........etc..etc!

Alternatively, learn how computer games work and recognize that sometimes patches break mods. It's the nature of the beast.

BIS announced that this was going to happen a month ago and the changes have been on the dev branch long enough for addon developers to either update their mods ahead of time or be prepared for the update when it dropped. Many addons were updated to work with the Bootcamp changes within 48 hours of the patch dropping. You're telling me that you couldn't wait (not even) 2 days to get your M16s back in the game?

[j4you 10]

.......... You're telling me that you couldn't wait (not even) 2 days to get your M16s back in the game?

Hi.

I have not more reason to be in a hurry......not anymore!

And i have cut the BI umbilical cord for some time!

The my was just a answer to his request to understand.

I can't understand.......

That's all.

PS.

It's your game and your time...i will wait the right moment to express myself about this Edition.

Regards

Edited July 17, 2014 by j4you

[marsell 1]

I like this update. A lot.

The bootcamp is an enjoyable and polished addition, and I am a complete fan of the direction BIS is going with the addition of fatigue/sway. Transport, traveling light, and moving deliberately have become even more important, which is great.

Luckily I had no problems with mods (thanks, LordJarhead!).

[Greenfist 1863]

For anyone interested in the numbers behind the fatigue, I made this crude script for testing it in the editor. I'm no scriptor but it works.

Features:

- Displays player's fatigue level, fatigue's change during past second, distance travelled, speed, load, elapsed time and distance to target

- User actions for:

Reset time, distance and fatigue.

Set fatigue to 100% (to see how you recover)

Set fatigue to a fixed level in 5% increments ("Reset fatigue" action sets it back to normal)

"Go there" which teleports you to where you're looking at. (for when you don't want to climb that hill)

Virtual arsenal for changing gear.

Installation:

Open the editor. Place player. Save the mission. Save the below script as "init.sqf" text file to mission folder (Probably at Documents\Arma 3 - Other Profiles\<your name>\missions\<folder>). Click Preview.

Actions and readings in game:

Script:

fixdfat = 0;
_newfat = 0;
_oldfat = 0;
_diffat = 0;
_oldpos = getpos player;
dist = 0;
seconds = 0;
targeted = 0;
player addAction ["Reset fatigue", "player setfatigue 0;fixdfat = 0;"];
player addAction ["Fixed fatigue +5 %", "fixdfat = (fixdfat) +0.05;"];
player addAction ["Fixed fatigue -5 %", "fixdfat = (fixdfat) -0.05;"];
player addAction ["Full fatigue", "player setfatigue 1;"];
player addAction ["Reset time & distance","seconds = 0;dist = 0;"];
player addaction ["Open Virtual Arsenal", { ["Open",true] call BIS_fnc_arsenal; }]; 
player addAction ["Go there","player setposasl (screenToWorld [0.5,0.5]);"];

while {true} do
{
_newfat = (round((getfatigue player)* 10000))/100;
_diffat = (round((_newfat - _oldfat)*100))/100;
dist = dist + (_oldpos distance player);
_oldpos = getpos player;

if (fixdfat < 0) then {
	fixdfat = 0;
};
if (fixdfat > 1) then {
	fixdfat = 1;
};
if (fixdfat != 0) then {
	player setfatigue fixdfat;
};

if ((player distance cursortarget) < (player distance (screenToWorld [0.5,0.5]))) then {
	targeted = (player distance cursortarget)}
	else {targeted = (player distance (screenToWorld [0.5,0.5]));
};

   hintsilent parsetext format["<t size='1.15'>Fatigue %1 %<br/>Change %2<br/>Distance %3 m<br/>Speed %4 km/h<br/>Load %5 %<br/>%6 sec<br/>Target %7 m</t>",_newfat,_diffat,round(dist),round(speed player),round((loadabs player)/1200*1000) /10,seconds,round targeted];

seconds = seconds +1;
_oldfat = _newfat;
sleep 0.5;

if (fixdfat != 0) then {
	player setfatigue fixdfat;
};

sleep 0.5;	

};

Edited August 21, 2014 by Greenfist
fixed the styling in the code

[ReVee 10]

Really? Because you talk like a verbally impaired child. MG Gunner, and you expect to be a triathlon runner? That fucker is carrying around a Squad Automatic Machinegun designed to fire 100's of rounds in one sitting. That fucker generally is the slowest BEFORE the patch. Don't pretend to be a vet when you have 6 posts TOTAL on the forum, AND have the mental maturity of goose shit.

[makhno 166]

While I welcome the introduction of a fatigue system, this one breaks up the pace of a mission far too much.

The fatigue system should be adjustable by each player/Server admin, just like accuracy or AI performance. It should be a difficulty setting, not a "one size fits all" developper choice.

Arma is used by many different players, who do many different types of missions, and who have different needs regarding fatigue.

While one particular setting will be fine for players who play fast paced close combat, this setting will not be that good if you play a 5km infiltration missison where the focus will be on evading patrolls and breaking contact if you're spotted.

[EDcase 87]

Really? Because you talk like a verbally impaired child. MG Gunner, and you expect to be a triathlon runner? That fucker is carrying around a Squad Automatic Machinegun designed to fire 100's of rounds in one sitting. That fucker generally is the slowest BEFORE the patch. Don't pretend to be a vet when you have 6 posts TOTAL on the forum, AND have the mental maturity of goose shit.

Don't be abusive or you will be reported.

While I welcome the introduction of a fatigue system, this one breaks up the pace of a mission far too much...

Agreed.

At the moment BiS is catering to the minority of hardcore military players who want very slow gameplay.

Maybe they are more verbal in requesting these things....?

Edited July 17, 2014 by EDcase

[SouthernSmoke 10]

@Greenfist and @Variable

Ok screw whatever i wrote about the fatigue suppression thing, i tried to disable mods one by one and apparently it was related to something being triggered in TPW_MODS, probably tpw_fall during the fall animations and not sure what would cause the bullet crack to increase the fatigue. After disabling the mod i'm not experiencing the same effect.

I was never aware of it, however the effect probably became more obvious with this 1.24 update due to weapon sway and fatigue being tweaked in general.

Bingo. I had to turn "tpw ebs" off because if you are suppressed now you might as well pull a Jessica Lynch and hit your knees to pray in a firefight because your not going to be able to contribute in any meaningful way unless your lucky enough to regain your senses somehow. It's completely stupid to have a warrior running from cover to cover in SLOW MOTION while not even able to hold his rifle steady enough to hit a building 20 meters away. If they wanted the game to be this restricting they should have implemented this fatigue and weapon sway at release. To force it into the game now after every player is used to the mechanics is absurd.

If they were going to make these drastic changes they should have at least included an "adrenaline offset" function that allows you to temporarily regain some movement speed and steady weapon abilities under fire.

[mr_centipede 31]

I'm still hoping for a better High Command or something of that nature that enable me to control a platoon of AI more efficiently and more immersive as a platoon commander.

Now, for this boot camp update, I really like the fatigue though I admit AI need to be taught that they need to manage their stamina. But they need to be taught not so well or they became too efficient in preserving their stamina that it would make the players assume the AI are not affected by fatigue...

I don't have any points/ideas to bring to the debate, just that stamina is essential and bring a new dimension to the game.

[BL1P 35]

Agreed.

At the moment BiS is catering to the minority of hardcore military players who want very slow gameplay.

Maybe they are more verbal in requesting these things....?

I think you will find that the people who actually embraced the decision by BI to move towards a more hardcore approach to the stamina and fatigue system (the minority as you put it) will not be herd over the voice of the majority of less hardcore players I presume ?.

As shown by the fact that the dev branch has pretty much reverted back to how it was before the update because of all the complaining about "I can't run with full loadout anymore" and "My gun sways and I can't hit anything".

After what 2 days of testing ? if that. Rather than trying to adapt the play style to match what the system was trying to achieve. People just came here and complained on mass and have basically forced BI to revert back to how it was to pander to the majority.

[royaltyinexile 175]

As shown by the fact that the dev branch has pretty much reverted back to how it was before the update

While I agree that the dev-branch tweak came rather quickly, I don't think it's reasonable to suggest the mechanics have been reverted to the previous state. It's true that it takes time for players to adjust to the additional challenge - and this was part of our Sandbox team's objective: to enable players to be able to master weapon handling, while encouraging more planning and teamplay - but I think the adjustments that have been made are quite reasonable and don't negate the original goals.

We agreed with the feedback that pointed out it seems unfair to introduce more punishing sway mechanics without offering players the ability to mitigate its effects through weapon stabilisation. It's fair to say (with the Marksmen DLC in mind) we are looking at the broad topic of weapon stabalisation, but we're not yet certain what aspects we're able to implement within the restrictions of our engine. It's therefore reasonable to make adjustments that work together with this.

Aside from these tweaks - and with Arma 3 as a platform in mind - we're also looking at offering mod-makers more control over certain core mechanics. We're looking at script commands that enable the adjustment (up or down) the effect of Fatigue and Weapon Sway. The goals of the default, vanilla gameplay, however, remains the same as we shared a month ago:

[...] we want to produce an authentic mechanic; players should benefit from planning out their movements and thinking carefully about their equipment. We hope that – presented properly – this depth will promote meaningful and enjoyable gameplay, and encourage teamplay and communication – principles as the heart of Arma 3.

I don't think that's necessarily 'hardcore', but I'd concede that it does require some more engagement from players than other games. Everything is relative. Furthermore, additional adjustments will have to be made to the intensity of fatigue and sway once the Weapon Inertia mechanics are integrated. After a period of internal validation, we aim to test this on dev-branch for a good chunk of time. Of course, this will be supported by an OPREP that details the changes and fixes that have been made meanwhile.

Best,

RiE

[krazikilla 5]

...

We agreed with the feedback that pointed out it seems unfair to introduce more punishing sway mechanics without offering players the ability to mitigate its effects through weapon stabilisation. It's fair to say (with the Marksmen DLC in mind) we are looking at the broad topic of weapon stabalisation, but we're not yet certain what aspects we're able to implement within the restrictions of our engine. It's therefore reasonable to make adjustments that work together with this.

....

Best,

RiE

RiE, did you ever try out ACE2 for ArmA2? If not, please do and check out the weaponrest there.

You can rest your gun on ground, walls, cars, everywhere, even on other players (kind of shoulder support)

Just implement it like this and im sure you will make most of us VERY happy.

[royaltyinexile 175]

RiE, did you ever try out ACE2 for ArmA2? If not, please do and check out the weaponrest there.

Thanks for the tip! Yes, we've taken a look at a bunch of community solutions, but, so far, we'd prefer to avoid scripted solutions for core features. As we mention in previous reports, the animation system is itself being refactored under-the-hood, which should give us some more (or rather, better maintainable) gameplay options.

Development is ongoing in parallel, so while Helicopters DLC's RTD and Firing from Vehicles are the next 'big' features, progress is being made on our longer-term objectives, too.

Best,

RiE

[Variable 322]

While I agree that the dev-branch tweak came rather quickly, I don't think it's reasonable to suggest the mechanics have been reverted to the previous state. It's true that it takes time for players to adjust to the additional challenge - and this was part of our Sandbox team's objective: to enable players to be able to master weapon handling, while encouraging more planning and teamplay - but I think the adjustments that have been made are quite reasonable and don't negate the original goals.

We agreed with the feedback that pointed out it seems unfair to introduce more punishing sway mechanics without offering players the ability to mitigate its effects through weapon stabilisation. It's fair to say (with the Marksmen DLC in mind) we are looking at the broad topic of weapon stabalisation, but we're not yet certain what aspects we're able to implement within the restrictions of our engine. It's therefore reasonable to make adjustments that work together with this.

Aside from these tweaks - and with Arma 3 as a platform in mind - we're also looking at offering mod-makers more control over certain core mechanics. We're looking at script commands that enable the adjustment (up or down) the effect of Fatigue and Weapon Sway. The goals of the default, vanilla gameplay, however, remains the same as we shared a month ago:

I don't think that's necessarily 'hardcore', but I'd concede that it does require some more engagement from players than other games. Everything is relative. Furthermore, additional adjustments will have to be made to the intensity of fatigue and sway once the Weapon Inertia mechanics are integrated. After a period of internal validation, we aim to test this on dev-branch for a good chunk of time. Of course, this will be supported by an OPREP that details the changes and fixes that have been made meanwhile.

Best,

RiE

Thanks RiE, a lof of us feel that the recent changes to the game are going in a very welcomed direction, and are in line with the Arma spirit. Great job and keep the faith!

[b00tsy 28]

We agreed with the feedback that pointed out it seems unfair to introduce more punishing sway mechanics without offering players the ability to mitigate its effects through weapon stabilisation. It's fair to say (with the Marksmen DLC in mind) we are looking at the broad topic of weapon stabalisation, but we're not yet certain what aspects we're able to implement within the restrictions of our engine. I

Best,

RiE

Just make sure the 'hold breath' feature works effectively for a few seconds duration and there will be no need for weapon resting or bipods (even though people shout it out like maniacs). I really don't understand why people are so focussed on the whole bipod thing. It's just an other mechanic/variable (like holding breath) that will minimize recoil/sway, but then with an attachment on the rifle and permanently. Thus making it permanently easier to control a heavy weapon. Bipods = I want it to be easier. LMG's and Sniper rifles should be a challenge to use, that will be undone if you add bipods/weapon resting... on top of holding your breath.

[nikiforos 450]

Bipods and weaponresting are quite common within the military, why not include them?

Much more realistic than many of the changes that we have seen in the past.