Ukraine General

[beastcat 14]

It doesn't look like that many to be honest. It seems like they just densely packed that one area so it would look like a lot. If you look down the street it is empty but maybe that is because they already walked by. Are the water trucks there to "purify the streets of the footprints of the fascist pigs"?

Yes, the reporter said this parade is done after the example of the POW parades stalin has done with the germans and that is indeed the purpose of the water trucks, as this has been done in stalins parades.

The pictures are from this welt.de article. You can go to the article for more photos or an interesting read in case you speak german.

[sudayev 27]

After watching this parade of humiliated I have to say that terrorussians are the same low life's as the Iraqi pseudocalipahte.

Is this happening in XXI century Europe or on wild steppes of Asia?

[Tonci87 163]

The water Trucks in 1944 were there to clean the streets after the parade. The majority of the German soldiers had the shits due to bad food.

But it really looks as if the Separatists tried to recreate that infamous parade......

[beastcat 14]

The water Trucks in 1944 were there to clean the streets after the parade. The majority of the German soldiers had the shits due to bad food.

But it really looks as if the Separatists tried to recreate that infamous parade......

Well, that is definitely a less romanticized way to put it.

[aleksadragutin 9]

After watching this parade of humiliated I have to say that terrorussians are the same low life's as the Iraqi pseudocalipahte.

Is this happening in XXI century Europe or on wild steppes of Asia?

It is not that shocking. If there was a conflict in some other part of Europe the same would probably happen. It's the thing about all wars.

[ProfTournesol 956]

It is not that shocking. If there was a conflict in some other part of Europe the same would probably happen. It's the thing about all wars.

Stop defending what cannot be.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Stop defending what cannot be.

Not defending anything. Just saying the truth.

You think that only they could be so savage, but that's not true. The truth is that this is in human nature, and no matter where the war is you would have stuff like that. Be it Ukraine, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan or Middle East.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Come on, you said it isn't shocking, but it is. It's sad you can't see it, but it tells a lot.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Come on, you said it isn't shocking, but it is. It's sad you can't see it, but it tells a lot.

War is shocking man. And everything that comes with it. This is war.

But am I surprised this happened - no. You could only be surprised by this if you haven't seen war.

[hellfire257 3]

It is not that shocking. If there was a conflict in some other part of Europe the same would probably happen. It's the thing about all wars.

That's nonsense. It certainly wouldn't happen in the UK.

[beastcat 14]

That's nonsense. It certainly wouldn't happen in the UK.

Or every other civilized country.

[mistyronin 1181]

Not defending anything. Just saying the truth.

You think that only they could be so savage, but that's not true. The truth is that this is in human nature, and no matter where the war is you would have stuff like that. Be it Ukraine, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan or Middle East.

Well, there are different levels and craziness, hate, etc. For instance I would not compare the pro-Russians with the IS.

In the same way for instance that the Wehrmacht didn't fought the same way against the Allies ( which was a conventional war ) than against the USSR ( that was an ideological "crusade", so more hate that lead to worst and more inhumane tactics ).

Sides always try to dehumanize the opposite, like Russia is doing calling nazis to the Ukrainians, or the IS infidels to those who are not Sunni extremists. The more you dehumanize the easier it is to find that kind of behaviors ( look the Nazis with the jews, that took their clothes, cut their hair, gave them uniforms etc. to turn them into things ).

Human brain by default is trying to protect other human lives, not terminate them.

Conclusion. No, not all wars are fight in the same way, and not all perversions are always prone.

Edited August 24, 2014 by MistyRonin

[sudayev 27]

It is not that shocking. If there was a conflict in some other part of Europe the same would probably happen. It's the thing about all wars.

Speak for yourself, but not for any civilized country that respect and recognizes the Geneva Convention.

[Tonci87 163]

It´s all about dehumanising the enemy. If that reaches a certain level, anything is possible.

[negah 26]

Speak for yourself, but not for any civilized country that respect and recognizes the Geneva Convention.

So USA is the same as IS and "terrorussians"? As I understand forcing prisoners to masturbate in front of cameras and torturing them and making photographs of it is also against Geneva Convention. Just as gang-raping a 14 year old girl and killing her and her family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

But no the civilized US soldiers could have never done such a thing. It must be Putins propaganda again.

That word terrorussians is actually an example of dehumanizing you have spoken of.

Instead of just thinking for a second that these are people who really hate the government (maybe due to propaganda, maybe due to other reasons) and fight for their freedom its easier to call them all terrorists, i.e. people who are enemy to the "good" democratic society and therefore must be exterminated.

The thing is, war is amoral, and however "civilized" the belligerents are, it will turn them into inhuman things.

Just like policemen and physicians who are facing death and suffering each day become dull after a while and dont care about other peoples sufferings.

[oxmox 73]

So USA is the same as IS and "terrorussians"? As I understand forcing prisoners to masturbate in front of cameras and torturing them and making photographs of it is also against Geneva Convention. Just as gang-raping a 14 year old girl and killing her and her family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

But no the civilized US soldiers could have never done such a thing. It must be Putins propaganda again.

That word terrorussians is actually an example of dehumanizing you have spoken of.

Instead of just thinking for a second that these are people who really hate the government (maybe due to propaganda, maybe due to other reasons) and fight for their freedom its easier to call them all terrorists, i.e. people who are enemy to the "good" democratic society and therefore must be exterminated.

The thing is, war is amoral, and however "civilized" the belligerents are, it will turn them into inhuman things.

Just like policemen and physicians who are facing death and suffering each day become dull after a while and dont care about other peoples sufferings.

People forget too fast......almost embarrassing. Just open a history book and look what so called "Civilized Nations" are capable of in a war or even in the present.

Edited August 24, 2014 by oxmox

[Beagle 684]

Or every other civilized country.

Are there any civilized countries left after the 18. century? In general you can see a rise in brutalaty and uncivilised warfare right after the french revolution. Thats what you get if you have powerfull people rule through the control over the angry mob...today called democracy.

[beastcat 14]

So USA is the same as IS and "terrorussians"? As I understand forcing prisoners to masturbate in front of cameras and torturing them and making photographs of it is also against Geneva Convention. Just as gang-raping a 14 year old girl and killing her and her family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

But do you know what the difference is? The things you have posted are considered crimes and the people who have done them were prosecuted (kinda). The things the separatists do, do not only go unpunished, but are also on an "official" level and are celebrated. The parade has been organised by the DPR on a "state-level" if you could call it that. The execution of the Slovyansk prisoners that has been ordered by Girkin was ordered on pretty much the highest level you can go for the actual separatists. The orders to punish even small crimes by death are also "state-level", while the torture and killings of POWs go unpunished. If they couldn't trade one Ukrainian soldier for half a dozen of theirs, I wouldn't be suprised to see many more dead. The shelling of cities is most likely ordered on even higher instances than the separatists in Ukraine. And those are just some examples.

Okean Elzy held a 20-years anniversary concert in Kiev a few days ago in support of a united Ukraine

They have become iconic for the Euromaidan movement, so those can be pretty much considered pro-Ukraine demos, but with awesome music.

They are also holding a concert today in Lviv (It can be viewed on UT) and as always the amount of people is insane.

Edited August 24, 2014 by beastcat
grammar and some more stuff

[negah 26]

But do you know what the difference is? The things you have posted are considered crimes and the people who have done them were prosecuted (kinda). The things the separatists do, do not only go unpunished, but are also on an "official" level and are celebrated. The parade has been organised by the DPR on a "state-level" if you could call it that. The execution of the Slovyansk prisoners that has been ordered by Girkin was ordered on pretty much the highest level you can go for the actual separatists. The orders to punish even small crimes by death are also "state-level", while the torture and killings of POWs go unpunished. If they couldn't trade one Ukrainian soldier for half a dozen of theirs, I wouldn't be suprised to see many more dead. The shelling of cities is most likely ordered on even higher instances than the separatists in Ukraine. And those are just some examples.

And the examples I posted are also only cases wich went public and therefore had to be punished. Do you think the administration of Abu Ghraib camp or the CIA agents who were torturing the prisoners to get information didnt knew what they were doing. But they werent punished, those stupid grunts who were stupid enough to get caught on the photographs were. Just as that rape case was definately not the only one. But as long as the public interest is lying elsewhere, such cases remain unnoticed and no one gets punished.

A bit more on being civilized.

Who defines that some countries are civilized and some are not.

For example some centuries ago we europeans were thinking (just as today) that we are the centre of civilization while other are not. Therefore it was our holy right to enslave people from less civilized countries and do with them whatever we desired.

You could say, well that was centuries ago and times have changed.

But in the recent history we germans, another civilized european people, have thought that we were the master race and others, especially "subhuman" slavs (that means you too beastcat) should be either exterminated or enslaved.

Then we got our arses kicked and still must pay for it. But other countries were eager to take our place: USA and USSR, toppling governments across the world and bombing innocents.

Speaking of USA, how long is that the segregation was abolished. How far ago is it that the civilized european countries have lost its colonies? Did you know that Nelson Mandela who fought against apartheid in South Africa was on the terrorist lists in the USA until his death? Because he was in fact a terrorist, but he has won in the end, and victors write history.

And look what is happening today, Israeli government make similar politics towards palestinians as we did with "subhumans" back in third reich. And all of it was approved by the governments of that countries.

So where are the so called civilized people. Nothing changes really, just the means of how we can kill each other and how the governments can brainwash us.

EDIT: besides you should listen to what our politicians have to say about immigrants from eastern europe.

The thing is, the amount of older people who get into retirement homes is growing while there are less and less germans who want to work there.

So we need immigrants who will take over such "dirty" jobs like cleaning or working in old peoples homes. And our politicians are speaking about it like it is absolutely normal thing, without noticing how gross it sounds.

I know such is reality, but still. It is as if we would repeat the practice of using people from eastern europe as labour forces for jobs no german would do, but this time they do it willingly.

And it is in every "civilized" european state so.

Do you think getting into the EU will make the life in Ukraine any better? Ask what Bulgarians think of it or just read some of vilas' comments.

EU wants to "conquer" your market so that for example german "Lidl" can sell stuff in Ukraine. But that actually means that while "Lidl" gets reacher, whatever production is left Ukraine will cease its existence because it wont be able to compete with european production. People will lose jobs, and there will be more unemployement, educated people will leave the country, you get the picture.

Is this the future you want for your country?

Edited August 24, 2014 by negah

[Dwarden 1125]

just note about the ABM systems, these systems aren't made to with-stand full scale attack but small scale or random encounters ...

btw. Russia atm. has one of the most advanced ABM systems already fielded ...

[mistyronin 1181]

I agree with beastcat in this one.

What some US soldiers did in places like Abu Graib was illegal and it has been prosecuted. Obviously there are always a % of criminals everywhere, also in the US Army.

But what happened in Donetsk was not a few proRussians that lost their minds, but a perfectly organized crime from the top of their leadership.

Is the same in WW2 a few German soldiers raped Russian girls, but where prosecuted and some executed by the Wehrmacht. While Stalin was issuing orders to the Red Army soldiers to rape as many girls as they could. What is really amazing is that was kept in the USSR archives, and after the fall of the Communism the World has had access to them ( lovely Soviet bureaucracy ).

Edited August 24, 2014 by MistyRonin

[beastcat 14]

And the examples I posted are also only cases wich went public and therefore had to be punished. Do you think the administration of Abu Ghraib camp or the CIA agents who were torturing the prisoners to get information didnt knew what they were doing. But they werent punished, those stupid grunts who were stupid enough to get caught on the photographs were. Just as that rape case was definately not the only one. But as long as the public interest is lying elsewhere, such cases remain unnoticed and no one gets punished.

What MistyRonin said, there is a percentage of criminals everywhere and crimes occure everywhere, but there is a clear difference between what crimes some people do, even if they are soldiers and crimes that happen on a state level. There is a reason why military-courts exist.

Yes, it is very likely that there have been crimes that have gone unpunished, but the same applies to the separatists. Yes, crimes happened on the US side, but how are the actions of small groups of criminals that are considered criminals by the government as bad as state-level war crimes, genocide, general human-rights infringements and so on?

But this is very similiar to many other arguments, that basically always go "Well, yes, we did kinda do a genocide and celebrated it while drinking the blood of babies while burning their parents alive after torturing them, but the US also tortured a guy once, so shut up!"

I agree with beastcat in this one.

Holy crap, someone who agrees with me, thats amazing!

[aleksadragutin 9]

You all really think that this kinda thing wouldn't happen with UK, USA etc. Why? People better? NO. Look at sick twisted people every country spawns. 100% in any war anywhere anytime you would have mistreatment of POW. What you're saying is absurd. It's almost like saying that west i incapable of war crimes.

---------- Post added at 20:57 ---------- Previous post was at 20:52 ----------

I agree with beastcat in this one.

What some US soldiers did in places like Abu Graib was illegal and it has been prosecuted. Obviously there are always a % of criminals everywhere, also in the US Army.

But what happened in Donetsk was not a few proRussians that lost their minds, but a perfectly organized crime from the top of their leadership.

Is the same in WW2 a few German soldiers raped Russian girls, but where prosecuted and some executed by the Wehrmacht. While Stalin was issuing orders to the Red Army soldiers to rape as many girls as they could. What is really amazing is that was kept in the USSR archives, and after the fall of the Communism the World has had access to them ( lovely Soviet bureaucracy ).

The whole US intervention is based on a principle where they make war legally, but the war as a whole is a far cry from legal. So yes, US has crimes organised on state level.

[mistyronin 1181]

You all really think that this kinda thing wouldn't happen with UK, USA etc. Why? People better? NO. Look at sick twisted people every country spawns. 100% in any war anywhere anytime you would have mistreatment of POW. What you're saying is absurd. It's almost like saying that west i incapable of war crimes.

I have not said that.

Obviously that can happen anywhere if people are manipulated enough and dehumanize enough the enemies, something like that in a mild way happened after the 9/11 that a lot of people saw Muslims as some kind of Evil ( some still do ).

But of course it's way more difficult that to happen in a democratic country with freedom of speech, compared to a countries where the government control strictly the information and censorship is active ( like Russia nowadays ).

[aleksadragutin 9]

I have not said that.

Obviously that can happen anywhere if people are manipulated enough and dehumanize enough the enemies, something like that in a mild way happened after the 9/11 that a lot of people saw Muslims as some kind of Evil ( some still do ).

But of course it's way more difficult that to happen in a democratic country with freedom of speech, compared to a countries were the government control strictly the information and censorship is active ( like Russia nowadays ).

Let's take a look at the 80's in the US. People were so terrified of commies back than and it was all state orchestrated. If a US soldier was to capture USSR soldiers he would definitely mistreat them in some way.

So you can't say that democracy makes it better.