Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

Come on, Spooky, it's so obvious that those guys are Russian soldiers...so disciplined and organized...everybody knows and sees it, and Putin's saying the contrary is as ridiculous as Bush with his Iraki WMD.

[spooky lynx 73]

Come on, Spooky, it's so obvious that those guys are Russian soldiers...so disciplined and organized...everybody knows and sees it, and Putin's saying the contrary is as ridiculous as Bush with his Iraki WMD.

Maybe part of them belongs to our 810th Naval infantry regiment. If all they really are our servicemen - that's would be glad for me, seems everything is not so bad in the army, at least when it comes to really serious threats to state security.

BTW, greetings from China. Seems all the supporters of sanctions and isolations of Russian may calm down and carry on.

[comm_yuri 10]

Maybe part of them belongs to our 810th Naval infantry regiment. If all they really are our servicemen - that's would be glad for me, seems everything is not so bad in the army, at least when it comes to really serious threats to state security.

BTW, greetings from China. Seems all the supporters of sanctions and isolations of Russian may calm down and carry on.

I got to agree on the cold and bloody FACT that EU/US allways underestimates Kremlin's will to protect it's interests and financed subjects. Russians did the same thing they did some years ago and nobody could do anything. I thought it hit them like cold water in the face and they would wake up and change their policy. But they still continue being restrained and doing the same thing over. EU's agenda for Ukraine was a total disaster and now if they are such good fellas and heros, go and turn it in "democracy's" favour again. But the only thing the EU representatives do right now is literaly running to Moscow to please or trade with Putin for their personal insurence in first place and then that of their own nations. Embarassing and pathetic.

eh, Ukrainians will have to see how they help themselves and that is sad. I feel so sorry for them. Wished my country could do at least something, but we can't risk another war in our current state.

Mechanized brigades ready to be deployed

Edited March 9, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[scrim 1]

Come on, Spooky, it's so obvious that those guys are Russian soldiers...so disciplined and organized...everybody knows and sees it, and Putin's saying the contrary is as ridiculous as Bush with his Iraki WMD.

No, this is way dumber than the Iraqi WMDs. It's harder to prove that something doesn't exist or is occurring, than that it is.

What's fun here is that this nonsense is something that makes it very obvious to everyone just how delusioned Lynx is.

What isn't fun is that it's a very common thing to see in especially states ruled by fascist regimes. Everything from the bullshit to the disregard of international law and human rights, and the self declared right to with military force rule over other countries makes 2014 Russia look exactly like 1938 Italy.

[spooky lynx 73]

When I see such hysteria about 'fascist Kremlin regime' I realise we do everything right. The opposite things we heard when our country was represented by mr. Andrey 'Traitor' Kozyrev and ruled by drunkard Yeltsyn. For some persons Russia will be a good democratic regime being only in the borders of 16-17th century and without any international interests and spheres of influence. So...

Edited March 9, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[Amra 10]

When I see such hysteria about 'fascist Kremlin regime' I realise we do everything right. The opposite things we heard when our country was represented by mr. Andrey 'Traitor' Kozyrev and ruled by drunkard Yeltsyn.

Actually we didn't. Since Gorbachev we hear assurances about no NATO expansion on the East and various bullshit about freedom, democracy, friendship, relations "reboot" etc. And at the same time we see systematic offense against our country, our people, our interests and so on. I'm really glad that now masks are finally dropped.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Actually we didn't. Since Gorbachev we hear assurances about no NATO expansion on the East and various bullshit about freedom, democracy, friendship, relations "reboot" etc. And at the same time we see systematic offense against our country, our people, our interests and so on. I'm really glad that now masks are finally dropped.

I'm speechless.

[Brisse 78]

I'm speechless.

The propaganda seems to be working, eh?

Edit: On the 16'th, Putins diplo-annex of Crimea will be complete. The options on the ballot is basically "Yes" and "Yes". The option to vote for staying with Ukraine is not given to the people.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Brisse

[comm_yuri 10]

More mobilization of Ukrainian forces and troop dislocation map.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iYbVmr9wr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eENtdRX2nYo#t=172&hd=1

Map of troop dislocations. Ukrainians seem to serously lack tank fleet in comparison.

http://www.geo-army.ge/images/images/doc_ukr234aina_vs.jpg

Comments on those videos prove from mentality many Russians support military intervention into Ukraine.

[spooky lynx 73]

The propaganda seems to be working, eh?

Edit: On the 16'th, Putins diplo-annex of Crimea will be complete. The options on the ballot is basically "Yes" and "Yes". The option to vote for staying with Ukraine is not given to the people.

Would you be so kind and not delude everyone?

http://sevispolkom.info/content/images/2014/%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80/IMG_9077-1.jpg (464 kB)

Questions left for referendum are:

1) Are you for reunion of Crimea with Russia as region of Russian federation?

2) Are you for restoration of 1992 Constitution of Crimean Republic and status of Crimea as part of Ukraine?

[mistyronin 1181]

Actually we didn't. Since Gorbachev we hear assurances about no NATO expansion on the East and various bullshit about freedom, democracy, friendship, relations "reboot" etc. And at the same time we see systematic offense against our country, our people, our interests and so on. I'm really glad that now masks are finally dropped.

Just travel and open your eyes.

West and NATO countries have much more problems than to think how to offense Russia.

In fact, the only one that seems frustrated that Russia is nomore in the headlines of the world, is the former KGB officer that you have as president.

I'd even say that all Europe's eastern people that were hurt by the USSR expansionist wars, were starting to think that they could trust Russia again. But, with the new Putin's bully stance, he has revived old fears.

Edited March 9, 2014 by MistyRonin

[ProfTournesol 956]

Would you be so kind and not delude everyone?

http://sevispolkom.info/content/images/2014/%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80/IMG_9077-1.jpg (464 kB)

Questions left for referendum are:

1) Are you for reunion of Crimea with Russia as region of Russian federation?

2) Are you for restoration of 1992 Constitution of Crimean Republic and status of Crimea as part of Ukraine?

So the main option isn't there i'm afraid : independant Crimea.

"Latest Gallup poll of Crimean residents said 53% wanted to stay as an autonomy within Ukraine, and only 23% wanted to be separated and become an autonomy in Russia."

[spooky lynx 73]

So the main option isn't there i'm afraid : independant Crimea.

"Latest Gallup poll of Crimean residents said 53% wanted to stay as an autonomy within Ukraine, and only 23% wanted to be separated and become an autonomy in Russia."

Why should it be main option?

And if that poll about 53% is true - let it be. The referendum is to be made exactly for this: show the will of Crimeans.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Why should it be main option?

And if that poll about 53% is true - let it be. The referendum is to be made exactly for this: show the will of Crimeans.

My guess is that this poll was made before the Maidan thingy, it has probably changed a lot since. With all that is happening now, my other guess is that most of Crimean people may think "give us a break, let us be independant from both countries".

Anyway, with all the militias and soldiers in the street, without any UN observers, this referendum is already null.

EDIT : I got the poll, VERY interesting to read : http://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/2013%20October%207%20Survey%20of%20Crimean%20Public%20Opinion,%20May%2016-30,%202013.pdf

Edited March 9, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[mistyronin 1181]

Why should it be main option?

And if that poll about 53% is true - let it be. The referendum is to be made exactly for this: show the will of Crimeans.

The will of the Crimeans can only be shown with a clean, neutral referendum. As any other democratic vote.

Not when there is an invading army that is doing all its best to influence the results: that suppress all non-russian communications ( so they don't even have freedom of press to know about the different alternatives ), directs and promotes violence against any dissident, forces population to accept as a ruling party one that had less than 5% of seats in the Crimean parliament, etc.

A vote under that circumstances is as valid democratically as toilet paper.

[Tonci87 163]

More mobilization of Ukrainian forces and troop dislocation map.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iYbVmr9wr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eENtdRX2nYo#t=172&hd=1

Map of troop dislocations. Ukrainians seem to serously lack tank fleet in comparison.

http://www.geo-army.ge/images/images/doc_ukr234aina_vs.jpg

Comments on those videos prove from mentality many Russians support military intervention into Ukraine.

I simply feel really sorry for those men, and especially for their families.

[Brisse 78]

:confused:

Edited March 9, 2014 by Brisse

[carlostex 38]

Are you sure NATO is still strong?... Germany alone reduced it's cold war fleet or MBT's from ca. 4000 to around 600 and the armed forces manpower from 560.000 to 270.000. Reminder...Germay had the second biggest Army in NATO just right after USA.

I believe a lot of European countries had defense budget cuts, but if there's a country that can ramp up their Army quickly that's Germany. Their economy, ability and work ethics could make them a military superpower again if the situation required.

NATO depends heavily on the US, Russia does have a geographical upper hand because they have no physical barriers that might stop their MBT's and conventional forces from advancing on the terrain. But Russia does not have an overwhelming army either and NATO's forces in Europe rely more on quality than quantity and could still make a stand.

So a conventional war for Russia would mean they would have to accept a lot of casualties just facing european NATO armies, while their Navy and submarines would have to try to stop the US from landing troops in Europe as much as possible.

So Russia must rely at where they excel, they know their best weapon systems are based on their offensive and defensive missile technology, i have no doubts whatsoever Russia would have to use tactical nukes on NATO first before rolling out conventional forces.

So shame on NATO, EU and the US to try and remove that tactical advantage from Russia.

Situation in Ukraine is quite clear: Putin does not want former socialist republics to get that friendly with NATO and the EU, so they play the "our ethnic minorities are threatened" card.

[spooky lynx 73]

I don't need to read between the lines. Second option clearly shows variant of being part of Ukraine.

[Tonci87 163]

LOL Wladimir Konstantinow, the Head of the Krim parliament has promised Krim citizens that their pay will be 4 times as large as it is now after the Krim joins Russia. That´s one way to make people vote in your favour...

Ah I love it when politicians start to throw around bullshit arguments.

[scrim 1]

Amra, Lynx: I just don't know what to say. Well, I know what to say, but it's naïve to think you will actually approach it with an open mind. So I'll settle for this: You are the sort of people who throughout the 20th century have enabled the unquestioned rule of fascism, and worse. You look back at your country's history and find humiliation that it caused to itself, and instead of learning from that, you perceive it as an offence of never before seen proportions, that puts you above everyone else, that makes whatever is done in the name of your country that could restore the conditions of the past, that when you are no longer subjected to, you deceive your memory into thinking of as the glory days of your country. The Germans perceived their humiliation at Versailles as justifying of them spitting on laws and human rights, as proof that they were superior, and entitled to take what they wanted by force. The Italians regarded the unfavorable outcome of post WW1 territory distribution as the same. Now you sit and regard the "shame" of somewhat decent rulers disbanding the Soviet Empire and attempting to institute democracy, as well as your former "brothers" choosing democracy and the West of their own free will, as something that justifies behaviour that would have suited the very worst dictators of the 20th century towards your neighbours. If you have any decency in you, think about that, genuinely and open minded.

[spooky lynx 73]

EDIT : I got the poll, VERY interesting to read : http://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/2013%20October%207%20Survey%20of%20Crimean%20Public%20Opinion,%20May%2016-30,%202013.pdf

Regarding financial questions seems that Yanuk regime was not so corrupt as it is spoken at maidan. At least in Crimea.

Amra, Lynx: I just don't know what to say. Well, I know what to say, but it's naïve to think you will actually approach it with an open mind. So I'll settle for this: You are the sort of people who throughout the 20th century have enabled the unquestioned rule of fascism, and worse. You look back at your country's history and find humiliation that it caused to itself, and instead of learning from that, you perceive it as an offence of never before seen proportions, that puts you above everyone else, that makes whatever is done in the name of your country that could restore the conditions of the past, that when you are no longer subjected to, you deceive your memory into thinking of as the glory days of your country. The Germans perceived their humiliation at Versailles as justifying of them spitting on laws and human rights, as proof that they were superior, and entitled to take what they wanted by force. The Italians regarded the unfavorable outcome of post WW1 territory distribution as the same. Now you sit and regard the "shame" of somewhat decent rulers disbanding the Soviet Empire and attempting to institute democracy, as well as your former "brothers" choosing democracy and the West of their own free will, as something that justifies behaviour that would have suited the very worst dictators of the 20th century towards your neighbours. If you have any decency in you, think about that, genuinely and open minded.

The one real fact I've learned from the history is that if we won't defence our interests - they won't be defenced and respected by anyone. I understand you prefer to see some kind of Moscowite principality with dimensions of 50x50 km being protectorate of EU or US - so called free world. But I have to upset you - we have other opinion on this. And I've seen myself that so called democracy instituted on the former USSR is nothing like attempt to bury that countries including my own. That democracy resulted in numerous civil and interethnic wars, fall of economies and life levels. And touched my relatives personally - some of them had to flee from Baku, been threatened by Azeri nationalists, some survived attacks of Georgian gossovet army on Abhasia (their house was hit with airstrike, thanks to happy coincidence Georgian pilot missed the window of my relatives and hit nearby flat, empty at that time). If it is that democracy you wish for my country - no thanks, leave it to yourself.

Oh and please don't fill your posts with propaganda stamps. There are not 70-80's now and Mr.Raegan is not president.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[Brisse 78]

Pro-ukrainian activists got beaten up by pro-russian activists and russian cossacs in Sevastapol earlier today. Where was the russian troops that are supposed to keep civilians safe? Of course, they where off to some more strategic location, digging in, like if it was an military invasion. Just one more proof that this has nothing to do with protecting civilian population.

[spooky lynx 73]

Pro-ukrainian activists got beaten up by pro-russian activists and russian cossacs in Sevastapol earlier today. Where was the russian troops that are supposed to keep civilians safe? Of course, they where off to some more strategic location, digging in, like if it was an military invasion. Just one more proof that this has nothing to do with protecting civilian population.

Links please? Or is it the same info of 'Russian blocks at Crimea' showing peacekeeper post at Osetia and stolen photo from other site?

[mistyronin 1181]

The one real fact I've learned from the history is that if we won't defence our interests - they won't be defenced and respected by anyone.

There is a huge difference between defend your interests and build and empire invading your neighbors.

Putin's gov wants to build a Greater Russia ( like Hitler with the Great Germany, etc. ) and seems that he is supported by a good amount of population judging by russian comentarist in different websites in the Internet. I'm already tired of reading all the nazi like slogans like 'For a big slavic Russia', that 'Ukraine is Russia', 'rebuild the soviet union', etc.

It is nothing about defending interests, its just a nazi imperialistic strategy.