Ukraine General

[Nicholas 5]

BTW as far as I remember the US didn't went to war alone... and in some of the countries the opinion was about 90% of the population against the war ( and even that, their country went to war, I remember Spain between them ):

I'll bet that statistic came from some news site like Fox News of ABC News. Voting yes or no on an opinion poll on some news site isn't going to change anything.

[ProfTournesol 956]

List of Ukrainians facing EU sanctions published by the UK treasury : https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/287392/Notice_Ukraine_060314.pdf

[spooky lynx 73]

Amra you should not be surprised on their anger, because your government didn't allow us to build anti-rocket system on our territory by not allowing USA to put it

Why should we tolerate installation of ABM system near our borders? If it is really designed to protect against Iranian missiles than it should be put somewhere in Greece or Bulgaria. But not somewhere near our borders where none of Iranian missiles that may fly towards EU main installations can appear.

[Nicholas 5]

Live right now from the White House:

President Obama Makes a Statement on Ukraine - The White House (www.whitehouse.gov)

[mistyronin 1181]

I'll bet that statistic came from some news site like Fox News of ABC News. Voting yes or no on an opinion poll on some news site isn't going to change anything.

I'm sorry to disappoint you but here in Europe people don't pay much attention to US Media. I was talking about serious public opinion polls, not website ones.

I don't remember much, but at least the no to war was the main subject covered for days in El País in Spain ( the 2nd most read there ), Le Monde in France ( most read there ) and The Guardian in UK ( most read in there too ).

Just read this article of last year in The Guardian: Iraq war 10 years on: mass protest that defined a generation

BTW, if you are interested in the Irak War support in the States according to Gallup data ( a well known company that regularly conducts public opinion polls )

Edited March 6, 2014 by MistyRonin
Orthography

[vilas 477]

Why should we tolerate installation of ABM system near our borders?

because it is our territory, on my territory i can lie naked, lie in clothes , dance, drink, whatever, cause our territory is our territory - it is called freedom and independence,

[Nicholas 5]

I'm sorry to disappoint you but here in Europe people don't pay much attention to US Media.

I don't remember much, but at least El País in Spain ( the 2nd most read there ), Le Monde in France ( most read there ) and The Guardian in UK ( most read in there too ).

Just read this article of last year in The Guardian: Iraq war 10 years on: mass protest that defined a generation

BTW, if you are interested in the Irak War support in the States according to Gallup data ( a well known company that regularly conducts public opinion polls )

This is a thread about Ukraine, MistyRonin. I was only giving an example of where most "statistics" of the public opinion come from. Most public opinion statistics come from polls that are operated by news organizations. Not necessarily the US news organizations alone.

Let's get back to discussing Ukraine, yes? If you want to discuss the invasion of Iraq, please go create a new thread.

[Amra 10]

because it is our territory, on my territory i can lie naked, lie in clothes , dance, drink, whatever, cause our territory is our territory - it is called freedom and independence,

Yeah, but you can't -)

[vilas 477]

there is proverb:

koora ne ptyca, Polsha ne zagranyca

translated

chicken is not bird (cause cannot fly), Poland is not abroad

this is showing Russian thinking, Poland is not abroad, the same they think about Ukraine, like "it is ours and we gonna decide about what other country can do or cannot do if this country is near to us"

this is sick and autoritarian colonist thinking , Russian thinking doesn't respect other nations independence and freedom (but the same time they are shouting about "nationalism" of others, having nationalists in parliament themselves)

[mistyronin 1181]

This is a thread about Ukraine, MistyRonin. I was only giving an example of where most "statistics" of the public opinion come from.

Let's get back to discussing Ukraine, yes?

We were commenting precisely the public opinion and demonstrations and how it affect country's involvement in war; which in this case could be an important point at this stage.

That's why right now before a possible direct war, there is the media war.

An a really interesting fact this time, is that unlike past US wars, the public opinion seems to be quite passive.

[Amra 10]

there is proverb:

koora ne ptyca, Polsha ne zagranyca

translated

chicken is not bird (cause cannot fly), Poland is not abroad

this is showing Russian thinking, Poland is not abroad, the same they think about Ukraine, like "it is ours and we gonna decide about what other country can do or cannot do if this country is near to us"

this is sick and autoritarian colonist thinking , Russian thinking doesn't respect other nations independence and freedom

Vilas, you are our brother. Why do you need weapons directed clearly agains us?

[Nicholas 5]

We were commenting precisely the public opinion and demonstrations and how it affect country's involvement in war; which in this case could be an important point at this stage. That's why right now before a possible direct war, there is the media war.

And as I said, many news organizations will host "public opinion polls" on their websites. I'm sure you're aware of this, as an example I listed that Fox News and ABC News do this regularily. I'm sure the Guardian or any other European news organizations conduct the same thing.

These opinion polls on news websites are not a good place to view "statistics".

[sudayev 27]

Why should we tolerate installation of ABM system near our borders? If it is really designed to protect against Iranian missiles than it should be put somewhere in Greece or Bulgaria. But not somewhere near our borders where none of Iranian missiles that may fly towards EU main installations can appear.

The same way we shouldn't tolerate ballistic missiles under our door. Sorry there is no written guarantee that Russia won't use missile against other countries. They will use them in first stage of conflict and a sovereign country has every right to DEFEND itself.

Don't be a fool - this is a language of political correctness when speaking about Iran. Everyone know what missiles from what country NATO shield can intercept. Just like everyone knows who Crimean tourists and armed enthusiasts really are.

It's like...

You know, It's soooo cool to aim my pistol at you and I wont hesitate will blow a fucking hole in your chest. But I'll be angry if you will wear a bulletproof vest and have your own pistol.

[Tonci87 163]

Vilas, you are our brother. Why do you need weapons directed clearly agains us?

Are defensive systems Weapons?

What harm could they do to russia?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Vilas, you are our brother. Why do you need weapons directed clearly agains us?

Ukrainians must ask the exact same question to Russians ATM.

[vilas 477]

Vilas, you are our brother. Why do you need weapons directed clearly agains us?

cause Putin might be insane and cause Putin in past show that he like to control too much and because we are in NATO and anti-rocket system is not to hit Russian citizens, but to hit rocket that fly to hit our citizens in case if someone like Putin would like to press button cause for example he want too much,

we talking about defence system that is anti-rocket, not rockets to bomb Russian houses, but system preventing against bombing our houses in case if someone who really praise Stalin or someone like Zyrinovski would win and would love to rebuild USSR ,

defence systems are always needed cause rockets fly too fast to shot them from jet, so it is not WEAPON but DEFENCE

[tortuosit 486]

105% .....

and he wouldn't even give a damn. He would smile the same way he smiled when that one region in Russia had over 105% voting for him.

I highly doubt Putin is manipulating elections as much as they are telling us. European media tell us about any grandma, who struggled in voting and the result is, votings have been manipulated. They regularly find complainers, usually the ones who are about to lose elections,make a big story out of it and tell us the story about evil Russia. Nonono, they are too biased. Without Putin, with an alcoholic like Jelzin, probably we would have a lot more ex Soviet states, there would ne more problems, Europe with all those dusgustingly goodwilling people would send all its wealthiness away. Not with me.

[mistyronin 1181]

These opinion polls on news websites are not a good place to view "statistics".

It seems that I'm not specific enough.

I'm not talking about the websites or media polls, but about the actual street movement and studies by serious companies like Gallup ( that I linked you before ).

At least in the case of El País, The Guardian and also Le Monde they contract companies to conduct their opinion polls, besides the official institutions in each European Government.

In my opinion, here in Europe, people used to see the US playing the role of bully of the world, but now seems that Putin is taking steps towards that position. At this point, and judging for comments in different medias that I follow in different countries and languages, people seem to like that Russia beats a bit the US ( like in school when a new bully beats the usual bully ). But I believe that this is gonna change if Russia keeps acting as a bully.

Edited March 6, 2014 by MistyRonin
orthography

[Nicholas 5]

It seems that I'm not specific enough.

I'm not talking about the websites or media polls, but about the actual street movement and studies by serious companies like Gallup ( that I linked you before ).

At least in the case of El País, The Guardian and also Le Monde they contract companies to conduct their opinion polls, besides the official institutions in each European Government.

Public opinion is important, I know that!! I'm saying that news organizations cannot be trusted for statistics!! I'm not talking about anything else!!

We're talking about two different things. So let's stop discussing with each other.

Back to Ukraine.....

[tortuosit 486]

I love the European bureaucats threats, which go like: if X continues doing a mistake, we the Europeans will maybe consider about maybe thinking about consequences.

And German politicians: "someone holds a gun at your head? Well lets discuss. And as we have always said, the mistake has happened in the past."

United Nations are also a big joke. I usually know what Ban will say. Something unimportant.

Edited March 6, 2014 by tortuosit

[sudayev 27]

they are shouting about "nationalism" of others, having nationalists in parliament themselves)

Oh yes...

I remember during the march of our right wing on 11.11.2013 in Warsaw. Russia have shouted through their media - Poland has problem with extreme nationalism! Nationalists are taking over Poland. Donal Tusk - do something about it!

They are forgetting about their nationalists. Extreme skinheads, psychonazis and sick weirdos who murder immigrants on a daily basis. I have seen very graphic videos portraying gruesome executions (throat slitting, shooting, beheading) and lethal beatings of dark skinned, Asian people of Russia. All under the banner of swastika and sieg heil. We do not have a problem with extreme radicals in Russia - but it's in good tone to lecture others!

Not to mention that many Rus politicians think that nazi-fuckheads are doing them a big favor.

FYI - we don't have racial hatred motivated murders, nor negro,jew you name it-hunt season here.

Simply, disgusting and hypocrite rhetorics Russia is known for, but everyone here is aware it, so...

Edited March 6, 2014 by Sudayev

[mistyronin 1181]

I love the European bureaucats threats, which go like: if X continues doing a mistake, we the Europeans will maybe consider about maybe thinking about consequences.

And German politicians: "someone holds a gun at your head? Well lets discuss. And as we have always said, the mistake has happened in the past."

I guess here in Europe we are use to so many wars, that any step taking by our politicians have to be studied in deep, as it could affect a lot in people's opinions ( hence vote intention ).

There are so many links forged between nations through years and years, that its like walking in a mine field.

That's one of the reasons why the EU is so weak now, because its really hard to find a full or major agreement.

[spooky lynx 73]

because it is our territory, on my territory i can lie naked, lie in clothes , dance, drink, whatever, cause our territory is our territory - it is called freedom and independence,

Please don't take it as offence but if you are drunken - you may leave your gas owen turned on and cause gas leak that may lead to explosion and fire. Which will also harm neighbouring houses. So freedom is good but only until it does not harm your neighbours. And regarding ABM it is clearly hostile to our country, being that pointed gun described by Sudayev. So don't be upset if for sake of countering ABM threat we deploy missiles nearby. You make your choice and you must take responsibility for its curcumstances and your freedom.

Meanwhile according to news reports Sevastopol city council made a decision to join Russia.

[scrim 1]

Vilas, you are our brother. Why do you need weapons directed clearly agains us?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Still not getting that the rest of Eastern Europe might not be on the same page about the brotherhood idea after, well, the Czars and the USSR? I know I'd probably have been living a rather wealthy life in Poland if it hadn't been due to Russian "brothers" forcing my grandfather to GTFO to save his life after the war. Apparently, the "brothers" didn't like Poles who had noblemen or independent Polish officers in their family. Or just common sense.

Lynx: No. That's not how it works in the civilized world. We don't say "oh, you're bothering a regime, we're cutting you off from democracy, you've clearly had too much".

And oh really? The pro-Russian council put in power by the Russian military and "led" by a politician who only received 4% of the votes in an actual free election, say they want to break off from Ukraine and join Russia? Why, how fascinating. While you're at it, can't you tell us again just why you think it's totally weird how former WP countries despise Russia.

Edited March 6, 2014 by scrim

[vilas 477]

ABM is defence not offensive weapon, it is defence system, what kind of threat is ABM ? like bulletproof vest is not weapon too,