Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

bolded key works. "I only caught a bullet in the arm, why is my aim so bad?!". I suggest you try not to get shot next time. Arma hasn't exactly been known to be a forgiving game. As it happens you can still use a FAK and pretty much regain your aiming ability (a feature which I am not too happy about - should only be available to medics).

I see your pain, but at the same time, in real life, every soldier goes through basic first aid training, because it's mandatory in case there is no medic, which is kinda what FAK kids were introduced for. However, it only puts you back up to 75% each time, and stop's bleeding if there is any. Getting shot in the arm, yeah, i'm not sure about that. there are people who can get shot 10 times and still fight, with there other arm, but that's like... real life WWII story right there of a Vikors machine gunner. But, Arma 3 isn't going to go down a total path of realism. If you get shot in the arms, you drop your gun, might as well run for your life. While the improvements in Fatigue are kinda getting there, it can still sue some work. If i got shot in the arm, depending, i would have 3 options. Sit there and get REKT, suck up the pain and shoot back accurately because my life depends on it, or run. And then there is not getting shot in the first place like you mentioned. I like that one better. :D

---------- Post added at 20:29 ---------- Previous post was at 20:26 ----------

Big/medium bag on your back, get wounded once, use a FAK, breath like a horse forever. Lie down, move forward 1 metre, breathing like a horse again for a minute.

Realistic? I don't think so.

I'm contemplating playing my missions only and disabling fatigue all together.

I see the problem as 2 problems. First, having to empty a clip into enemy infantry to kill em which leads to us packing 30 clips of ammo (wasnt an issue in OFP etc, 8 clips lasted forever). Second, wasting a lot of ammo because it only takes AI to shoot you 2-3 times max to kill you so its best to go FULL AUTO to get off as many shots as possible, hopefully before you die.

And then theres fatigue because of the ammo issue, to try and balance it or whatever.

First, you could make clips weigh more so we can't pack 100 of em. Second, armor penetration/explosive bullets should be introduced (as default bullets).

Now we wouldn't have to pack our bags full with ammo like packmules.

Just look at armor development and bullet/missile development. Anyone comes up with an armor that stops current bullets/missiles, someone comes up with bullets/missiles that penetrate the new armor just as easily as previous generations. They go hand in hand.

This is kind of a good idea. Like for example, the Marksman DLC, maybe since with Fatigue and what not, since it's going to add to the already difficult task of killing someone will full armor on, why not introduce AP munitions for rifles. They exist in real life, and would be interesting to see added to the ballistics of Arma 3, and even make it a little easier to kill someone. I played Insurgency, and they have Target Rounds (Tracers), HE, and AP. Would be interesting to see.

[vegeta897 13]

...

Let's not draw comparisons to OFP as a valid reason for why something should or should not change.

You're bringing in a whole bunch of other issues into the argument such that your post is derailing the topic. It seems like you're getting out of breath quickly because you're carrying a lot of magazines. I'm not sure I see the logic in making those magazines way more so that you carry less of them. Huh? You can pack a lot because the bag fits a lot. That doesn't mean it's going to be easy to carry. But even if it did, how would making them weigh more solve your problem? The developers have made a design decision to make your gear a more significant factor in your play and tactics. Adapt, or disable fatigue. I reiterate that just because your strategies have worked in the past, that does not mean they should work now, or that the game is flawed because they do not.

Armor/damage is another issue that doesn't belong in this thread. But as a helpful hint, let's try to avoid using hyperbole when discussing game balance changes. You do not need to use a whole magazine to kill one enemy.

[papy.rabbit.08 0]

bolded key works. "I only caught a bullet in the arm, why is my aim so bad?!". I suggest you try not to get shot next time. Arma hasn't exactly been known to be a forgiving game. As it happens you can still use a FAK and pretty much regain your aiming ability (a feature which I am not too happy about - should only be available to medics).

I'm sorry, you can say what you want, as it is now, it is totally unplayable! I've tried it 10 times since, it has noting to do with getting a bullet in the arm. I have been in the army, maybe you cannot move fast and run forever if you have a big bag, or things like that, but aiming is not a problem like that, never. It is not possible to even target a house or a mountain... Even if I wait 30 seconds, when I move, 1 meter to target a soldier, it start again to shake like hell...

[Greenfist 1863]

I'm sorry, you can say what you want, as it is now, it is totally unplayable! I've tried it 10 times since, it has noting to do with getting a bullet in the arm. I have been in the army, maybe you cannot move fast and run forever if you have a big bag, or things like that, but aiming is not a problem like that, never. It is not possible to even target a house or a mountain... Even if I wait 30 seconds, when I move, 1 meter to target a soldier, it start again to shake like hell...

That's exactly the shake you get when your arms are badly injured. Seek medical attention.

The sway is a lot smaller when you're healthy.

But you're right, the fatigued sway is too big when you're really extremely tired.

[neodammerung 8]

Fatigue as is it right now in dev branch isn't bad BUT since there is no proper use of bipods (yet... I hope on day) I can already tell there will be a lot of complaint when it will reach stable branch because as soon as you're hit, it's impossible to aim at anything, even at 30m

It's a bit overdone but I don't understand why they decide to change fatigue now and not when they release a proper way to stabilize your shots (aka bipods or ACE / TMR like system) which is even more important when you're hit, it makes no point, I fail to see who this new fatigue system (released alone) makes happy.

[papy.rabbit.08 0]

That's exactly the shake you get when your arms are badly injured. Seek medical attention.

The sway is a lot smaller when you're healthy.

But you're right, the fatigued sway is too big when you're really extremely tired.

If you have a bullet in the arm, maybe you'll have trouble to move correctly and target what you want, but you won't be shaking like that, no way...

And as I said, in my video, I wasn't tired, I was there since at least 1 minute :/

[Greenfist 1863]

If you have a bullet in the arm, maybe you'll have trouble to move correctly and target what you want, but you won't be shaking like that, no way...

And as I said, in my video, I wasn't tired, I was there since at least 1 minute :/

Yeah, but how should the game punish you when you're injured? Major shaking is the first thing that comes to my mind. But I admit, it's looks ridiculous.

[papy.rabbit.08 0]

Last message from my me: I decided to take a 3rd try to the campaign this morning. It will probably never happend again, it is totally impossible to play it! The devs should remember it's a game, you're alone, in every mission you have to kill 20 guys a least, where the reality there? So reality is not an argument IMO. Now, even shooting one guy is difficult. You get shot with one bullet and you couldn't even target the sky. I'm so disapointed that most of the problems only get worse, like with the AT soldiers who can't shoot a tank 10m in from of them, it was better in ofp, and now this... It's sad in a way, because it's only a matter of choice. :j:

[blackpixxel 53]

I think that there has to be another kind of weapon sway for injurys that gets add to the fatique sway. I always liked the Arma 2 (ACE) weapon shake when you are injured.

It simply is not a good solution to use the fatique sway also for being injured, because both have to have different effects on your aim.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Last message from my me: I decided to take a 3rd try to the campaign this morning. It will probably never happend again, it is totally impossible to play it! The devs should remember it's a game, you're alone, in every mission you have to kill 20 guys a least, where the reality there? So reality is not an argument IMO. Now, even shooting one guy is difficult. You get shot with one bullet and you couldn't even target the sky. I'm so disapointed that most of the problems only get worse, like with the AT soldiers who can't shoot a tank 10m in from of them, it was better in ofp, and now this... It's sad in a way, because it's only a matter of choice. :j:

Yep that's the downside of the new fatigue. Missions aren't enough realistic that you can complete them. So many AIs to kill and your allies are very poor. I stopped in the Adapt because of this even before the fatigue. It's just solo rambo everywhere because the team mates die pretty much for the first 10 AI.

[neodammerung 8]

So many AIs to kill and your allies are very poor.

Well since BIS decide to merge Friendly AI Difficulty and Enemy AI Difficulty together (I don't know why, maybe they thought it was too difficult for new players to understand what they were doing but since then I don't have fun in coop anymore) You have the choice between stupid as hell friendly AI (and they all die in the first 2min of combat) and bearable enemy AI or useful friendly AI but overpowered super enemy AI.

The new fatigue system sure doesn't help the player, it's too bad because a fatigue system isn't a bad thing but as soon as it will hit stable branch the majority of players will see any fatigue system as a really bad thing.

[haleks 8206]

Well since BIS decide to merge Friendly AI Difficulty and Enemy AI Difficulty together (I don't know why, maybe they thought it was too difficult for new players to understand what they were doing but since then I don't have fun in coop anymore)

WTF? Goddamn that sucks; not only the AI is shitty to handle/fight against, but now they removed the simplest way we had to kind of balance things?!

Damn, BI, improve the bloody AI before removing customization options!

[seba1976 98]

Well, I don't want to sound important or anything, but you can't say I didn't say this was coming :). I've been trying to understand BIS decision since the feature was anounced, but to no avail. BIS must be a house divided. First they favor gameplay over realism and succed in atracting general public attention, and now with this (and their coming DLCs) they are going the opposite way (like never before in the series). Whay do they expect those new players will think and do after this patch? They are insane.

[xendance 3]

Well since BIS decide to merge Friendly AI Difficulty and Enemy AI Difficulty together (I don't know why, maybe they thought it was too difficult for new players to understand what they were doing but since then I don't have fun in coop anymore) You have the choice between stupid as hell friendly AI (and they all die in the first 2min of combat) and bearable enemy AI or useful friendly AI but overpowered super enemy AI.

The new fatigue system sure doesn't help the player, it's too bad because a fatigue system isn't a bad thing but as soon as it will hit stable branch the majority of players will see any fatigue system as a really bad thing.

WTF? Goddamn that sucks; not only the AI is shitty to handle/fight against, but now they removed the simplest way we had to kind of balance things?!

Damn, BI, improve the bloody AI before removing customization options!

The enemy vs. friendly AI skill is up to the mission designer. He can still define how difficult the opposing force will be and how competent your own side is.

It makes 100% sense.

[royaltyinexile 175]

now they removed the simplest way we had to kind of balance things?! Damn, BI, improve the bloody AI before removing customization options!

The values can still be configured in the editor quite precisely; we think that carefully balancing the AI SKill is up to scenario authors, not by players using blunt and unintuitive instruments, which actually make it more difficult to improve the behaviour long-term.

Oukej put together an OPREP on the topic to explain the changes in more detail. However, since this thread relates specifically to Fatigue, I'd suggest that the AI Configuration Thread would be a more useful place to provide any further feedback. :)

First they favor gameplay over realism and succed in atracting general public attention, and now with this (and their coming DLCs) they are going the opposite way (like never before in the series).

I agree that fatigue (and it's related affects upon other mechanics) is a complex topic, which is why sandbox designer Radko sketched out the goals of the work here: OPREP: AI Configuration.

There is, of course, more work to be done tweaking this feature; however, its goal are fairly simple and, we think, far from contradictory to Arma 3's approach. As we discussed in our Bootcamp Update Blog:

[...] we want to produce an authentic mechanic; players should benefit from planning out their movements and thinking carefully about their equipment. We hope that – presented properly – this depth will promote meaningful and enjoyable gameplay, and encourage teamplay and communication – principles as the heart of Arma 3.

Ultimately, given the growing nature of Arma 3 as a platform, there may be some division between those who believe such mechanics are an unnecessary impediment and those who believe they don't go far enough. While we've considered adding a game option switch, our Sandbox team is determined to produce a core mechanic that is fit for purpose; therefore, in the first instance, we'd like to avoid falling back upon this option/way out, and our devs will continue to work hard to make it splendid.

Best,

RiE

[-Coulum- 35]

Well, I don't want to sound important or anything, but you can't say I didn't say this was coming . I've been trying to understand BIS decision since the feature was anounced, but to no avail. BIS must be a house divided. First they favor gameplay over realism and succed in atracting general public attention, and now with this (and their coming DLCs) they are going the opposite way (like never before in the series). Whay do they expect those new players will think and do after this patch? They are insane.

There will always be those who find the learning curve to steep. Especially in a game like arma.

BI is not divided. They just can't keep up development on all fronts and features of the game. There will always be times where one feature is ahead of the other. Ie. fatigue is in but weapon resting is not. Inertia will be in but it will have no effect on ai. This is unavoidable but if the game is to advance it is necessary.

Unfortunately ai and BI mission design can certainly be made even more frustrating but this is not a problem with fatigue. Especially mission design leaves something to be desired - though there are many great community made missions.

[Greenfist 1863]

If you and your AI teammates die too quickly, you can enable the Extended Armor setting in the difficulty menu. It helps a bit.

[-=seany=- 5]

The fatigue is interesting. It would suck if it was forced....Quite a few fun game modes rely on carrying "rambo" load outs (either beacuse of the huge amount of units/armor in the mission or because of Dumb, unreliable AI, or even just because it's a nice and enjoyable game pace). Players (particularly the new guys 2013/14) have to remember this when you say "this is how the game should be" etc. Many people quite liked the way the game was for the past 10+ years....hell, that's why we are playing it.

This new fatigue is huge change in the style of game that OFP/Arma was. Like I say, it's interesting, but probably wouldn't be high up my list for things BIS could have taken and tried to make ultra realistic....how about proper Vehicle gunnery for example? Or much better damage system with vehicles etc. These would have been accepted by far more people...e.g. much less of a controversial area of the game to make more realistic...also one that would benefit and make everyone happy, rather than one that alienates some people (only if it can't be switched off of course).

Honestly, being constantly forced to move around a game world at a particular pace, to avoid being visually and aurally (and now in movement too) punished by annoying post process effects (blur and vignette) and annoying audio samples (constant heavy breathing in my ear) that are supposed to simulate an exhausted human......not really my idea of fun....not for every game/mission I play anyway. It's like the survival of DayZ...or the realism of ACE mod...yes it's fun for now and again...but that level of survival realism would suck if it was forced constantly.... lol I suppose I should go and play Mario...? :P.

Also.. a no-brainer addition that would seem to need to accompany this fatigue is weapon resting...any word on that??? Seems like now is the perfect time to add that. Since we are supposed to be ultra realistic soldiers now...isn't that what real soldiers do when they need to steady their aim when out of breath etc? Use a nearby wall edge/ledge etc.. I have seen them doing this countless times in real world Iraq/Afghan videos.

But like I say, as long as we can turn it off it's all good....If a little disappointing to some that BIS chose to focus on this area to make ultra realistic.

[Alwarren 2766]

Quite a few fun game modes rely on carrying "rambo" load outs (either beacuse of the huge amount of units/armor in the mission or because of Dumb, unreliable AI, or even just because it's a nice and enjoyable game pace).

If they just put "this enableFatigue false;" into each player's init field, that problem should fix itself. Disabling the fatigue by design isn't a big deal.

[neodammerung 8]

So we should choose between a fatigue system nobody likes and no fatigue system at all

[byku 13]

...fatigue system nobody likes...

...

Personally love it ;], although i'm not against options, if for some it is too difficult or challenging.

[St. Jimmy 272]

So we should choose between a fatigue system nobody likes and no fatigue system at all

Many people including me likes the depth it brings.

[Greenfist 1863]

You could also make a little piece of script that limits the fatigue to certain level. It would then be almost like the old system without the most extreme exhaustion effects.

Maybe this could be a built-in function? "player SetMaxFatigue 0.6"?

[-Coulum- 35]

So we should choose between a fatigue system nobody likes and no fatigue system at all

Hey hold on a minute. I love the fatigue system. And I don't think I am alone. Infact, maybe I am wrong, but I think the majority of the people on devbranch are happy with the direction BIS is going. Stable users might be a different story.

Mission makers, I am sure, will catch up and balance new missions once it hits stable. And soon enough there will be a mod that totally disables the system. It would be extremely easy to make. Just like there will be a mod that makes it even more difficult. In some way, people will be able to get what they want out of the game.

You could also make a little piece of script that limits the fatigue to certain level. It would then be almost like the old system without the most extreme exhaustion effects.

Maybe this could be a built-in function? "player SetMaxFatigue 0.6"?

Yes that effect is actually possible to achieve now via scripting. But I really must ask: Do people actually reach that level. I am playing through the campaign and not once have I tired myself out that much. In fact I am rarely unable to sprint. The only reason I have experienced that "can only walk, massive weapon bob state" is through testing and even then I had to speed up time. So you could limit the fatigue, but to me at least, it would make no difference. And if does for you, well maybe you should consider just stopping to take a breather everyonce in a while, or reconsider your loadout.

Honest question, how many people have actually gotten to the point where they can't run while playing. Its not easy to do.

The fatigue is interesting...

...If a little disappointing to some that BIS chose to focus on this area to make ultra realistic.

Hmm I am pretty sure that this was not only a "confirmed" feature a long long time ago, but it was also generally highly anticipated. I don't see it as a wasted effort at all.

Players (particularly the new guys 2013/14) have to remember this when you say "this is how the game should be" etc. Many people quite liked the way the game was for the past 10+ years....hell, that's why we are playing it.

New players aren't really for or against the system. I think few are on devbranch to try it yet. And I think the majority of people are not happy with the way the game was for the past 10+ years, thus the constant feature requests.

[...] we want to produce an authentic mechanic; players should benefit from planning out their movements and thinking carefully about their equipment. We hope that – presented properly – this depth will promote meaningful and enjoyable gameplay, and encourage teamplay and communication – principles as the heart of Arma 3.

Ultimately, given the growing nature of Arma 3 as a platform, there may be some division between those who believe such mechanics are an unnecessary impediment and those who believe they don't go far enough. While we've considered adding a game option switch, our Sandbox team is determined to produce a core mechanic that is fit for purpose; therefore, in the first instance, we'd like to avoid falling back upon this option/way out, and our devs will continue to work hard to make it splendid.

The new system definitely "promote meaningful and enjoyable gameplay, and encourage teamplay and communication". It would be good to have it optional (via difficulty) once it has been fully ironed out though.

Edited July 12, 2014 by -Coulum-

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

It is nice to have as an option . The new fatigue system is laying the foundations for upcoming additions. In the bigger picture you may see it as a nice improvement. Time will tell.

I agree other areas like Ai, and vehicle wreck crashes, seem more at the forefront. This is about the fatigue. I say roll with and and see how it pans out.

The out if breath sounds are bad . I have a mate I will record him next time he comes out of the toilet after dropping a load. And send you a sample... Of the wheezing not the stoole.