Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[razor6014 35]

hmm so you propose every wound lessens stamina like loads , or stamina is slowly depleted influenced by loss of blood or leght of time of untreeted wound ? 

Another regression: Injuries don't affect your stamina at all.  :icon_sad:

[twisted 128]

i think supporting your weapon against a wall or even better deploying a bipod should help control the sway more after jogging. just playing the combined arms scenario and it feels like the sway jacks up too fast and isnt really reduced enough by the support/bipods. the effect of just jogging should maybe be a little less sway causing.

[Kryptongame 14]

Krypton from everything you say I can only gather you're really piss poor at arma and get shot alot. You basically don't want any stamina penalty so you can run away with your tail between your legs as you fast as you can.

I believe you need a special game setting introduced were you can knock off stamina , bullet drop, and basically any skill requirements. Perhaps add in a stand against a wall to regain your health type gig.

The vision you have for this stamina is an off switch.

If you'd like to fight,me 1v1 on,Vanilla arma you'd get utterly destroyed....but we can have that discussion over PM. And of course i wouldn't want bullet drop removed, it's a reason I'm good is because I can shoot at a distance....but first of all most players dislike the recoil update, and they also believe the current fatigue system is so unrealistic and annoying... so yeah it needed rework.

[Kryptongame 14]

Yeah I figured already. What you want is

Player enableFatigue false;

Send from my tablet, so pardon any autocorrect bollocks

That's basically already in the game on certain servers and it works for those gamemodes....

[CaptainObvious 95]

 

You can jog up that incline without consuming stamina, I think you shouldn't be able to.

 

 

Reading about special actions with associated cooldown times, I ask myself are we talking about Arma here, or World of Warcraft ?

 

Speaking of special actions with associated cooldown times, the hold breath seems to be more effective than it was before, I find it quite nice to a certain degree as it's now possible to fire a few accurate-ish shots after running, but the cooldown is only 3 secs and it feels very robotic.

I would be nice if you'd get that massive sway you get now after the hold breath has "run out", but instead of just stopping abruptly when you can hold breath again, the sway would gradually become smaller and smaller and when you can hold again, it would stop as it does now.

I hope someone understands what I'm trying to say  :P

 

 

 

edit: Ah, it's tied to available stamina, nice one, with a few tweaks it will be awesome!

[froggyluv 2136]

If you'd like to fight,me 1v1 on,Vanilla arma you'd get utterly destroyed....but we can have that discussion over PM. And of course i wouldn't want bullet drop removed, it's a reason I'm good is because I can shoot at a distance....but first of all most players dislike the recoil update, and they also believe the current fatigue system is so unrealistic and annoying... so yeah it needed rework.

 

 So this is the mindset of the average anti-fatigue fan......figures :p

 

 And just how do you speak for "most players"? 4chan4funclub?

[Alwarren 2767]

That's basically already in the game on certain servers and it works for those gamemodes....

No shit, Sherlock :D

[teabagginpeople 398]

...but we can have that discussion over PM.

sorry I already have a girlfriend. It's not like when I seen your proposition, I didn't try pitch the idea of adding another girl into the mix. but she shot it down. she's so selfish.

having a stamina system that does not factor in your body having bullet holes in it is cheap. It might just be a short oversight. and they're improving.

I see it this way . In a shoot out. You get a shot off and wound the guy. He shouldn't be able to sprint off into the woods saying "better luck next time sucka". Mobility should be reduced. Tensions raised. His chances of survival should shrink.

[iratus 71]

I played some games on devbranch over the weekend to get a feel for stamina. I've stuck mostly to official scenarios or played in the editor with standard loadouts. This way I could test different game situations and couuld avoid the danger of "unreasonable loadouts". There are two main mechanics in stamina: the sprint part and the sway from jogging part

 

Sprinting:

The recently added influence of terrain steepness made me think more about the terrain as before (onder versions of stamina that is), even thouhg I'm not totally sure if that payed out. In genereal I had the feeling to allways have enough stamina (except with the Blufor Ammo Bearer who is loaded up to allmost maximum). I was allways able to sprint until I was either in cover or dead, even with the heavyer loadouts. However I stopped using "short tactical sprints" (doing a short-range position change e.g. going into another room in a house to get a better view/angle on a target) almost entirely. They don't seem to pay out anymore, since the time gained by sprinting can easily be lost while aiming at a higher sway. I do not have any metrics on this so it could be subjective.

Overall the sprinting stuff works, but I dont find it particularly interesting as a game mechanic, especially compared to what fatigue had to offer.

 

Sway from jogging:

When the character moves, his weapon sway increases to a certain point (heavy breathing). The sway increases more/quicker if the character has a heavyer load. There might be other factors as well (terrain slope, movement style), but I'm not sure about this. Sounds good, right? Well... in theory it does. In practice I've got some problems with it.

Firstly it is not all that clear: When I was affected the first time I did not really know why my character was breathing so heavily. I immediately checked the stamina bar wich was at maximum/rested (invisible). But this system is not tied to the samina bar, so it was a bit confusing even though I've read the OPREPs and this forum. The somewhat unnatural behaviour (see further down) adds to this effect, making it difficult to tie the sway to recent movement. It's not a big enigma or something, but since stamina is also about making the system more clear it should be mentioned.

Secondly the system feels somewhat unnatural. We basically got a character who is able to jog for hours without getting slower (this solves the lack of organisation & driving/piloting skills on public servers-problem taking forewer to walk the two km to the combat zone-problem), but he starts to breath like an old steam horse after jogging 25m, rendering him basically combat ineffective.

Thirdly the quick increase of breathing lends to strange/unenjoyable gameplay. The sway increases so quickly I found myself often jogging 30m to a cover, then hiding in said cover for about 10 to 15 seconds before engaging - in the middle of a firefight where my team actually needed my firepower. If i had started engaging sooner, my aim would have been so bad I'd not hit the broad side of a barn anyways. The sway increases less quick for lighter loadouts; light and to some degree medium classes have a bit more mobility. But it's still verry short even for a standard soldier before one needs to hold breath to hit even at close ranges. The heavyer classes (e.g. Blufor Soldier (AT)) run out of stamina so quickly* they are practically useless duringa firefight (or at least no fun to play - you have to use "hold breath" for every shot). And their loadout should be considered heavy but reasonable.

To make a comparison: Under (old) fatigue you could jog close to the objective. Then you would take a stamina break for a minute or two (usually this time is needed anyways for teamleaders to coordinate/set up). then you would jog the last 300m or so and arrive combat effective in the combat zone. With the (current) stamina system you might skip the stamina break and jog straight to the combat zone. But you then have to pause every 25 or so meters for little 15 second stamina breaks during combat (or fight heavy sway all the time).

 

Sumary

I doupt the people who did not like fatigue will like stamina in its current state. It deals somewhat with the travel-time problem, but is verry restrictive during actual combat and does not lend itself well for fast, action focussed gameplay (nor for milsim stuff).

 

 

 

TL;DR: I dont think the people who did not like fatigue will want to use stamina as it is now.

 

 

*:maybe jogging with launcher in hand uses up stamina really fast? I had problems even if moving verry short distances.

[Jona33 51]

Iratus makes a good point actually, since the stated aim is to make the system clearer, it seems illogical not to link sway and stamina. As now you get weapon sway very quickly, and heavily, but that isn't reflected in the stamina bar. To me at least that is less clear than the old system, with the old system you were given no artificial feedback. But with the new system you have artificial feedback, that doesn't reflect what you're actually seeing, which seems far more confusing.

[CaptainObvious 95]

Sway and stamina are linked, the bigger the stamina pool, the longer it takes to get heavy sway but it indeed is not visible in the stamina bar.

[Jona33 51]

Sway and stamina are linked, the bigger the stamina pool, the longer it takes to get heavy sway but it indeed is not visible in the stamina bar.

 

Sorry, it's not linked in the display is what I meant. It just seems to add confusion to the system rather than taking it away.

[twisted 128]

Sway from jogging:

When the character moves, his weapon sway increases to a certain point (heavy breathing). The sway increases more/quicker if the character has a heavyer load. There might be other factors as well (terrain slope, movement style), but I'm not sure about this. Sounds good, right? Well... in theory it does. In practice I've got some problems with it.

Firstly it is not all that clear: When I was affected the first time I did not really know why my character was breathing so heavily. I immediately checked the stamina bar wich was at maximum/rested (invisible). But this system is not tied to the samina bar, so it was a bit confusing even though I've read the OPREPs and this forum. The somewhat unnatural behaviour (see further down) adds to this effect, making it difficult to tie the sway to recent movement. It's not a big enigma or something, but since stamina is also about making the system more clear it should be mentioned.

Secondly the system feels somewhat unnatural. We basically got a character who is able to jog for hours without getting slower (this solves the lack of organisation & driving/piloting skills on public servers-problem taking forewer to walk the two km to the combat zone-problem), but he starts to breath like an old steam horse after jogging 25m, rendering him basically combat ineffective.

Thirdly the quick increase of breathing lends to strange/unenjoyable gameplay. The sway increases so quickly I found myself often jogging 30m to a cover, then hiding in said cover for about 10 to 15 seconds before engaging - in the middle of a firefight where my team actually needed my firepower. If i had started engaging sooner, my aim would have been so bad I'd not hit the broad side of a barn anyways. The sway increases less quick for lighter loadouts; light and to some degree medium classes have a bit more mobility. But it's still verry short even for a standard soldier before one needs to hold breath to hit even at close ranges. The heavyer classes (e.g. Blufor Soldier (AT)) run out of stamina so quickly* they are practically useless duringa firefight (or at least no fun to play - you have to use "hold breath" for every shot). And their loadout should be considered heavy but reasonable.

To make a comparison: Under (old) fatigue you could jog close to the objective. Then you would take a stamina break for a minute or two (usually this time is needed anyways for teamleaders to coordinate/set up). then you would jog the last 300m or so and arrive combat effective in the combat zone. With the (current) stamina system you might skip the stamina break and jog straight to the combat zone. But you then have to pause every 25 or so meters for little 15 second stamina breaks during combat (or fight heavy sway all the time).

*:maybe jogging with launcher in hand uses up stamina really fast? I had problems even if moving verry short distances.

 

this articulates a key issue I'm having with stamina. Running is mostly penalized in an intuitive way, but jogging is ironically penalized more than what'd be expected, especially since its not linked to the bar that is supposed to represent tiredness.

 

imo, solving this, by lowering the rate at which sway is generated by jogging, and making support systems a lot more efficient at quickly bringing what should be moderate sway under control would help make stamina  more intuitive and more viable.

[-Coulum- 35]

this articulates a key issue I'm having with stamina. Running is mostly penalized in an intuitive way, but jogging is ironically penalized more than what'd be expected, especially since its not linked to the bar that is supposed to represent tiredness.

Indeed. System is actually harder to manage, despite stamina bar - only tells half the story. No breathing, screen effect or slow down. Unaware I am "tired" until I try to shoot and, holy fuck tonnes of sway. Not "transparent".

 

Know my whining is probably useless and annoying but compare "transparency":

• Old system: simple. Go up hill, sprint, crouch, jog, tactical pace, carry alot of weight, or wounded - you tire faster. When tired sway increases, speed decreases. Become untired by stopping and resting.
• Now: jogging, crouching, tactical pace,walking don't deplete your stamina, BUT don't be fooled they'll sneak in and add tonnes of sway with zero warning. Sprinting depletes your stamina and adds another type of sway. And terrain will not do anything... until you reach a certain gradient. Degree above and depletes your stamina fast. Degree under and zero effect. Don't forget weight. It actually has no effect on stamina or sway at all, BUT it limits your maximum stamina  :confused: .   

You tell me, which is easier to remember, understand and manage? Which one is more logical?

 

Where is the transparency? Stamina bar? Why not add that to old system? Frustrates me so much. Not going to please anti-fatigue players. They will still disable it. Their issue isn't with transparency, its with limitation of ability. My ignorant perspective: Better off with stamina bar, nerfed version of fatigue, (normal jogging = 0 fatigue) enabled for recruit to regular difficulty and old fatigue for veteran and elite. Work movement based sway (awesome addition) into inertia.

 

Sorry to rant. I find it hard to provide feedback - always end up just citing mechanics of fatigue. It was well done. I hear BI are making a mod of it. Glad to hear, though sad to have to play modded A3 after enjoying vanilla, from alpha to now. 

 

imo, solving this, by lowering the rate at which sway is generated by jogging, and making support systems a lot more efficient at quickly bringing what should be moderate sway under control would help make stamina  more intuitive and more viable.

Have a different suggestion. Generation of sway stays the same. Recovery rate is effected by how long you jog, walk, whatever. Jog 10 seconds, sway is high but dissipates rapidly. Pretty much gone in seconds. Jog 5 minutes. Sway builds up to the same height. Dissipates at slower rate though. Takes a full 30 seconds. This prevents people from running and gunning after jogging short distances (I believe that would be the case with your suggestion), but doesn't make every bound incapacitate a player for a half a minute (as it does now). Similar idea here. Main theme: Sway recovery needs tweaking.

 

You can jog up that incline without consuming stamina, I think you shouldn't be able to.

I agree... at a different rate than a steeper/gentler hill. Apparently BI only wants one rate of stamina recovery/loss... too complicated if stamina loss was dynamic and based on the degree of slope. It needs to be a Boolean all or nothing... :angry: 

 

I would be nice if you'd get that massive sway you get now after the hold breath has "run out", but instead of just stopping abruptly when you can hold breath again, the sway would gradually become smaller and smaller and when you can hold again, it would stop as it does now.

I hope someone understands what I'm trying to say  :P

Understand, and totally agree.

[Kryptongame 14]

After doing tests where I actually have to sprint and then engage, it's easy to realize stamina system is far more restrictive then before....now with a 7.62 and no backpack, and 13 mags, I can sprint for 20 seconds....when I'm done sprinting I have to lay down for a good 20 seconds if not more before I can engage. I also get extreme sway frim simply turning around, to the point it's hard to hit. I honestly would like New Sway tied with Old fatigue system....and the improved hitboxes of course.

[razor6014 35]

seriosly .. what is with all the ranting .. its the first/second iteration of stamina ...

expect 4 more iterations before its even close to a completed subsystem .. thats cca 8 more weeks.

So calm down and think in features that you want added to make it more complete.

 

And for all of you who think you are going to rant them back to the old fatigue system ... that ship has sailed i think. 

 

@Kryptongame

 

dude you are sprinting around with 260 rounds of ammunition and a battle rifle what did you expect ? 

[teabagginpeople 398]

While rant like in their expressions, the content still holds value.

The old fatigue system personally was easier to comprehend and more straightforward . As a system it was just lacking a visual indicator.

The new system has a stamina indicator, but now the system is making the indicator dysfunctional. Just as it is now. Obviously room and some time to improve.

Which with the above "rants" can be achieved.

[Varanon 892]

seriosly .. what is with all the ranting .. its the first/second iteration of stamina ...

 

That's great.

 

The "ranting" is called feedback, and the very existence of this feature on dev branch is to collect feedback.

 

If you don't "rant" now, there will be no 4 or more future iterations. As such, this "ranting" is absolutely necessary.

 

We had the same before in Alpha, people were calling those of us who "ranted" whiners because we were "ranting" while the system was still in development. Well, guess what, this "ranting" and "whining" got the game to where it is now.

[razor6014 35]

Na , man , coding got the game where it is now  :P .

 

Its ok i get your frustraiton  but still its more my distaste for the way you said somthing than what has been said.

 

but ontopic, tried the new stamina  mostly on NE part of altis near Orekastro castle ,  most of the stamina breaks where on par with RL.

did not test it on flat terrain.

 

Edit:

Oh yeah , double sounds when running with binos out again ..

[Greenfist 1863]

Tweaked: Running / jogging forward now slowly exhaust stamina in all stances. Rolling to the sides in prone now exhaust stamina like sprinting.

The "slowly exhaust" is interesting. I thought everything was going to be exactly 1 stamina unit (second) more/less per second. But this implies the rate can also be slower or faster than that.

 

 edit.  It's -0.1 stamina/s when jogging/combat pace/crouch jogging/crawling. The load or terrain gradient has no effect.

So you can jog 10 times longer than sprint.

 

These recent changes are starting to remind me of one older system we used to have. :icon_twisted:

 

My terrible, sarcastic test video is becoming less and less relevant with every update:

(I'm so sorry if I just wasted 2 minutes of your time)

[CaptainObvious 95]

Thanks buddy, that made my day! 

[-Coulum- 35]

Tweaked: Running / jogging forward now slowly exhaust stamina in all stances. Rolling to the sides in prone now exhaust stamina like sprinting.

Well awesome. Any possibility that it could be made so weight has an impact - totally buck naked guy actually regains stamina, light loadoat, stagnant, full loadoat, extremely small loss, heavy loadout guy, steady loss. Or something like that. I think that would go along way to stifling the"what this is a soldier he should run forever" because "well he can, just drop a bit of gear". It would also actually make light loadouts a much more viable and interesting option. It might be worth it to drop the armour and extra ammo (to my mind it has never been the case, even with the old fatigue system).

 

Was not expecting this. I thought BI were going to make all rates of stamina loss equal. Either lose at x rate, or don't lose at all. Glad I was wrong. Any chance different hills steepness could have different rates of stamina loss? 

[St. Jimmy 272]

The wishes have been heard. This might get interesting. I almost afraid that they would roll this out with the next update.

[Varanon 892]

Na , man , coding got the game where it is now  :P .

 

Its ok i get your frustraiton  but still its more my distaste for the way you said somthing than what has been said.

 

Oh, distaste for something I have said ? Which one are you referring to ?

[Kryptongame 14]

The wishes have been heard. This might get interesting. I almost afraid that they would roll this out with the next update.

They will m8...comin in November